PipeChat Digest #209 - Wednesday, January 21, 1998
 
Re: Virgil
  by Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: Virgil & Diane
  by Otto Pebworth <opebwrth@gte.net>
Showmanship vs. historically correct interpretation (Was RE:  Favorite Ad
  by Shirley <pnst@itw.com>
Re: Virgil & Diane
  by Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
First Organ
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Virgil's Defense
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Organs for a lifetime
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Organ in a box?
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Virgil-I have had enough of the entire pipe organ "world"
  by MFulk70776 <MFulk70776@aol.com>
Re: Virgil-I have had enough of the entire pipe organ "world"
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Organs for a lifetime
  by Sean Haley <newgershwin@hotmail.com>
Re: Organs for a lifetime
  by o\r fiol <fiol@bway.net>
Re: Diane Bish
  by Dr. Edward Peterson <epeterso@madison.tdsnet.com>
ADMIN NOTE: Excessive Quoting - Please Read!
  by Dr. Peter G. Pocock <pgpocock@ix.netcom.com>
Printable BWV CD.....
  by Glenn Day <kginc-bham@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Virgil
  by Ian B. McLean <ian.mcclean@c031.aone.net.au>
Virgil again
  by Dave Pitzer <dpitzer@sonic.net>
Re: Virgil
  by Ken <mewzishn@spec.net>
Out of the mouths of ....
  by Dr. Edward Peterson <epeterso@madison.tdsnet.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Virgil From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:06:06 -0800   At 10:21 1/20/98 -0800, Dave Pitzer wrote: >The argument about the value of Virgil Fox has been going on for years. Virgil >was the attraction. The music rolled off most attendees brains like water >off a duck's back. > > >The notion that he was >an ambassador for organ music is, in the face of history, silly and ought >to be put to rest. > >organ recital at the chapel at Princeton University. Don't recall the >organist but I heard the music of Alain for the first time at this recital. >I'll never forget it -- the music, that is.   This doesn't really address the influence Fox had (or didn't have), it only shows what show people have known for years: Different people will get out of a performance what they look for...     Regards,   Bob        
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil & Diane From: Otto Pebworth <opebwrth@gte.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:11:50 -0500   GRS Co LVR wrote: > Hearing him play "Come Sweet Death" > on the Wanamaker organ,,with nearly 100 ranks of string pipes shimmering in > the Grand Court always raised the hackles on my spine,,,but any other organist > that I heard play it with essentially the same registration did not leave that > impression.   ---> More than likely the sound was different because Virgil lived and breathed the prayers in the pieces he played, whereas others are may be just playing an arrangement without becoming totally abosrbed in the intense strength of the piece. I was at a recital for the dedication of a new "Brand-A" instrument several years ago where the performing artist had the "Come, Sweet Death" on the program, and spoke of it being the Fox edition. Would've been nice if he'd actually played the arrangement itself instead of a watered-down imitation in THE WRONG KEY! (I could see what notes he was hitting on the pedals... he was playing the piece in Cm instead of C#m. Boy, did THAT change the colour of the piece!   Otto  
(back) Subject: Showmanship vs. historically correct interpretation (Was RE: Favorite Advice for Organists) From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:57:20   At 06:55 01/20/98 -0800, Rich wrote:   >My organ instructor was neither virtuoso or idiot. He was and is, in >fact, a pragmatist. In the context of which he was speaking (which was >liturgical organ playing), he wanted me as a student to study musical >interpretations as the composers intended. Virgil's presentation of >organ works was, shall we say, non-traditional. He was a genius, and he >had every right to blaze his own trail, but his outrageous theatrics >toward the end of his career had no place in my studies at the time. >That's all, I believe, my instructor was trying to say. > >I do not want to start a thread of defense for/opposition to Virgil, but >I am one of those teenagers who was influenced by Virgil. I attended >his concerts, collected a few of his recordings, and followed his life >with interest.   In our auditions for the position at Abington, we've heard both schools: the exciting, flamboyant interpretation of Bach as well as the understated more historically correct version. Our previous organist was a teenager at the time of Fox, and also was influenced by his stylings. In fact, the Bach/Fox "Now Thank We" that Biff recorded on the MIDI (which is still there) very much reflects that school of thought.   To hear a different interpretation of some of the great Bach works has indeed been refreshing.   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil & Diane From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:12:00 -0800   I concur with Mr. Campbell - while Virgil's recordings did not inspire me in my tender years to take up with the organ, I enjoy and respect his music-making now, as well as that of Diane Bish. How many times have I sat through a boring recital of someone from academia (i.e., doing all the right things) wishing he/she was Virgil or Diane! Sorry, no offense, but I like to be entertained while I'm being educated (most people do).   Glenda Sutton      
(back) Subject: First Organ From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:24:23 -0600   bruce cornely wrote:   >   > >average person purchases three organs   > >in their life time   >   > I'm either way below average or VERY young;   > I'm still waiting for my first organ!!   >   > bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o   > ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o   >   >   > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics   > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org   > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org   > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org   > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org       I'm 15, and waiting too. The chances are looking good for one now. It   might even be free. (Don't ask, I will not tell)       Kevin   kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Virgil's Defense From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:25:43 -0600   Dave Pitzer wrote:   >   > The argument about the value of Virgil Fox has been going on for years.   > Those who defend him almost always make a reference to how he was able to   > "pack" a church/recital hall -- the assumption being that he introduced a   > lot of people to the organ and organ music. This further assumes that the   > crowd remembered the sound and/or the music for any length of time.   > Probably most did not; they went to *see* Virgil, not to hear music. Virgil   > was the attraction. The music rolled off most attendees brains like water   > off a duck's back.   >   > I recently [perhaps a year ago] had the rare opportunity to speak with a   > Fox recital attendee from sometime in the late 50's -early 60's [at   > Riverside Church in NYC]. I asked this person [now in his fifties] what Mr.   > Fox played at this recital: absolutely no idea. I asked if he had any Bach   > recordings: Yes! the Brandenburg Concerto [sic]. I asked if he had any pipe   > organ recordings: No, reminded him too much of weddings and funerals. But   > he had seen Virgil and remembered this ocassion vividly -- except for the   > music, obviously.   >   > Virgil was a personality first, a musician second. Nothing wrong with that.   > But I strongle suspect that he did NOT introduce -- in a meaningful way --   > a large number of people to organs or organ music. The notion that he was   > an ambassador for organ music is, in the face of history, silly and ought   > to be put to rest.   >   > Incidentally, at about the same time as the person above, I attended an   > organ recital at the chapel at Princeton University. Don't recall the   > organist but I heard the music of Alain for the first time at this recital.   > I'll never forget it -- the music, that is.   >   > David Pitzer   >   > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics   > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org   > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org   > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org   > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org       Hey (in offense)!! I have his Tocatta and Fugue CD, and I think it is   wonderful. I have tried to play as fast as he could, and so far, not I   or anyone I know can do it. He played this on the Royal Albert Hall   Organ in London.       For now,       Kevin   kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Organs for a lifetime From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:30:32 -0600   Kevin.M.Simons-1 wrote: > > Jon C. Habermaas wrote: > > > > bruce cornely wrote: > > > > > > >average person purchases three organs > > > >in their life time > > > > > > I'm either way below average or VERY young; > > > I'm still waiting for my first organ!! > > > > > Guess using this criteria I pushing on very OLD..to date four organs.. > > 2 pipe and 2 electronics...currently have one of each > > > > Jon > > > > Wow, count your blessings. > > Unfortunately, neither would fit in my dorm room here at OU, and I think > my mother would kill me if I told her I wanted to put an organ in the > basement at home...Not that I could afford it anyway. > > <sigh> Maybe someday... > > Kevin M. Simons > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   Have you thought about one of those smaller electric-action organs? They can make a nice sound for their size, and they are usually affordable. If you are lucky, every once in a while you will find one for free. Keep your eyes on closing churches and doomed buildings. When you find one, start asking questions. My friend got an organ this way.   For now,   Kevin Cartwright Greenville, AL kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ in a box? From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:32:06 -0600   Frank Johnson wrote: > > Excuse me for not knowing but I have forgotten what an organ is > called that has everything except the console in a "box" with swell > shutters. Here in Winfield Kansas there is a "practice" organ in a > building of the now defunct St. John's College. The city now owns the > buildings and the organ was playable until recently when the leather gave > out. The organ is an Austin organ of 6 or 7 rank, two manual console. It > is all in an enclosure and the console is separate. What is this type of > organ called? > > Frank R. Johnson (KA0API) > Spirit of New Orleans - clarinet/leader > http://www.hit.net/~usd465/ > 1922 E. 14th > Winfield, KS 67156 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   I need a practice organ.   Kevin Cartwright Greenville, AL kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil-I have had enough of the entire pipe organ "world" From: MFulk70776 <MFulk70776@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:40:08 EST   In a message dated 98-01-20 16:17:09 EST, you write:   << The music rolled off most attendees brains like water off a duck's back. >>   Of course we know that only the initiates are truly able to hear the glory of the highest forms of music!!!   This will get me kicked off, I know, but I have have had enough of these taxonomies of tautologies, and haughtiness passed off as good taste.   Good day to you all. You deserve each other  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil-I have had enough of the entire pipe organ "world" From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:10:09 -0600   MFulk70776 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-20 16:17:09 EST, you write: > > << The music rolled off most attendees brains like water > off a duck's back. >> > > Of course we know that only the initiates are truly able to hear the glory of > the highest forms of music!!! > > This will get me kicked off, I know, but I have have had enough of these > taxonomies of tautologies, and haughtiness passed off as good taste. > > Good day to you all. You deserve each other > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org     MFulk,   Are you leaving us now? Sometimes you are mean (aren't we all), but we still enjoy you. I hope you were only talking about something else.   Kevin kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Organs for a lifetime From: "Sean Haley" <newgershwin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:17:41 PST   >> bruce cornely wrote: >> > >> > >average person purchases three organs >> > >in their life time >> > >> > I'm either way below average or VERY young; >> > I'm still waiting for my first organ!!   I must be older than I thought I was. I am on my second organ, a Gulbransen Rialto II, and I am only 17.   Sean Haley   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Organs for a lifetime From: "o\r fiol" <fiol@bway.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:50:12 -0600   Dear List,   I was wondering if there is any way to make the "pipe up and be heard" etc. not appear at the end of each message posted to me. It's really annoying now that I've subscribed.   Thanks, Orlando    
(back) Subject: Re: Diane Bish From: epeterso@madison.tdsnet.com (Dr. Edward Peterson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:00:58 -0500   On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:37:27 +0800 (TAIST), Morton Belcher III <flcg1018@fujens.fju.edu.tw> wrote:   >Now, back to Diane Bish....Perhaps one of these days Ms. Bish will find >time to write an autobiography.... However with all of her activities, >I think we will have to wait a number of years for her autobiography...   Outside of her extremely busy schedule, Ms Bish's private life is spent in her home not that many miles from my own. I would suspect that it may be some time before Ms Bish will come out with an autobiography.   Dr.Ed  
(back) Subject: ADMIN NOTE: Excessive Quoting - Please Read! From: "Dr. Peter G. Pocock" <pgpocock@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:41:34 -0800   Hi everyone,   With the increased traffic on the list since the beginning of the year it is very important that you keep quoting to a minimum. There are several reasons for this:   1. The larger the note, the more pressure it puts on our server. 2. Excessive quoting adds extensively to the DIGEST often forcing more than one digest to be produced in a day. 3. People turn off quickly to a post if there is excessive quoting. The natural tendency is to want to see quickly what it is about and see if it is worth reading further. If there is excesssive quoting at the beginning for example, the chances of the reader reading what you have to say at the end of the post is very small.   The best way to answer a message is selective quoting, similar to the following:   Reproduced post from Dr. Ed. ======================== On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:37:27 +0800 (TAIST), Morton Belcher III <flcg1018@fujens.fju.edu.tw> wrote:   >Now, back to Diane Bish....Perhaps one of these days Ms. Bish will find >time to write an autobiography.... However with all of her activities, >I think we will have to wait a number of years for her autobiography...   Outside of her extremely busy schedule, Ms Bish's private life is spent in her home not that many miles from my own. I would suspect that it may be some time before Ms Bish will come out with an autobiography.   Dr.Ed =======End of reproduced post=========   For our guidelines, please refer to our website at http://www.pipechat.org   Thanks for being a part of PipeChat.   Happy chatting,   Pete!    
(back) Subject: Printable BWV CD..... From: Glenn Day <kginc-bham@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:55:32 -0600   Greetings, Before Christmas last, I received an advertisement for a CD-ROM containing the organ compositions of J.S. Bach which could be printed. If any of my esteemed colleagues know of this, I would be most appreciative for the information. Please e-mail me privately as I do not want to bandwidth from important topics.   D. GLenn Day    
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil From: "Ian B. McLean" <ian.mcclean@c031.aone.net.au> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:21:58 +1100   Dave Pitzer wrote:   > Those who defend him almost always make a reference to how he was able to > "pack" a church/recital hall -- the assumption being that he introduced a > lot of people to the organ and organ music.   He did, in the MILLIONS!   > This further assumes that the > crowd remembered the sound and/or the music for any length of time.   On what basis does this "assumption" exist?   > Probably most did not; they went to *see* Virgil, not to hear music. Virgil > was the attraction. The music rolled off most attendees brains like water > off a duck's back.   Truly? So, let's say that Mr Fox exposed, say three million people to organ music in his life time (probably more like ten million), and that only 1% of them were drawn to be interested to the level that then attended other concerts or purchased recordings. This is 30,000 to 100,000 NEW afficionados. Hardly irrelevant or of little value. Name another organist from the classical orgnaists out there who has had such an effect?   > I recently [perhaps a year ago] had the rare opportunity to speak with a > Fox recital attendee from sometime in the late 50's -early 60's [at > Riverside Church in NYC]. I asked this person [now in his fifties] what Mr. > Fox played at this recital: absolutely no idea.   So what? HOW is this relevant? ONE PERSON!   > I asked if he had any pipe > organ recordings: No, reminded him too much of weddings and funerals. But > he had seen Virgil and remembered this ocassion vividly -- except for the > music, obviously.   Sir, you draw some pretty long and self serving straws here;   1. ONE person out of 3 to 10 million does not make, or even begin to commence a statistical reality.   2. ONE person not remembering music that was played all those years ago does not make their opinion irrelevant. Did you think to ask him if he enjoyed the concert? And, why? Did he tell anyone afterwards? Did those people then attend?   3. Asking questions in a way that provides you with the answer that you want is hardly filled with integrity.   > Virgil was a personality first, a musician second. Nothing wrong with that.   Good to read! And, I'm SO glad that YOU approve!   > But I strongle suspect that he did NOT introduce -- in a meaningful way -- > a large number of people to organs or organ music.   I beg to differ.   > The notion that he was > an ambassador for organ music is, in the face of history, silly and ought > to be put to rest.   Not based on your contributions to date. What is your problem? Jealousy? Envy?   Ian McLean    
(back) Subject: Virgil again From: Dave Pitzer <dpitzer@sonic.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:39:55 -0800   Douglas A. Campbell wrote:     <paraindent><param>left,left</param>Having ATTENDED a "Fox Night Out" in person I can tell you that , Yes   people DID come to see him - but left only after hearing him! And hear   him - they did !   They not only heard the music, but they also heard the "passion" that   Virgil conveyed in both the music actually played and even in his   commentary!   I know of many people that attended his "Joe's Lights" extravaganzias   only to see the "show". Now many years later - they have extensive CD   collections - with VERY FEW classical recording - but they DO have organ music - 'cause they still remember that incredible impact that Virgil had upon their lives.   I have two friends that are now Virgil Fox fans - that NEVER attended a concert! They were "converted" just by listening to my record   collection. !   So, Virgil was NOT conventional - NOT reserved - and NOT ineffectual!   </paraindent>   Mr. Campbell,     First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments. I don't want to make a career out of "attacking" Virgil Fox; he's not worth the time and I have better things to do. But what I said about him -- although my opinion -- is pretty much re-enforced by your comments above. In fact you make my argument for me and I therefore thank you.     Virgil wasn't about music; he certainly wasn't about pipe organs [his famous "Light Shows" didn't employ a pipe organ]. Virgil was a showman and a very good one from what you say. To use your word, he held "extravaganzas", not recitals. And he did have a following, no question of that. And the two new fans you mention...are they, as you say, "Virgil Fox fans" or fans of the *music* he performed. Could they, for example, name one composition (or composer) on any of Mr. Fox's recordings that they heard? Have they since purchased any pipe organ recordings? Have they expressed an interest in other organ compositions? Has Virgil started them off on a love affair with organ music in general? If so, then Virgil did his job; he served his instrument and the music. If not...     David Pitzer      
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil From: Ken <mewzishn@spec.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:02:07 +0000   Dave Pitzer wrote:   > Incidentally, at about the same time as the person above, I attended > an > organ recital at the chapel at Princeton University. Don't recall the > organist but I heard the music of Alain for the first time at this > recital. > I'll never forget it -- the music, that is.   I heard VF live, twice. I don't remember every work he performed (the programs usually contained a good number of works!) but vividly recall such things as the 7+ encores, and some of the pieces that were played. Given that I was about 16 years old at the time, perhaps the impression was greater.   I also remember many firsts: the first time I heard anyone improvise, and it was Pierre Cochereau. To this day I wish I had listened more carefully! Another first was hearing Marie-Claire Alain perform works by her brother in a live concert, and I hope it's the last time, obviously she wasn't much in the mood to play that day. I've seen young pianists practice Hanon or Czerny for an hour with more enthusiasm and fewer errors.   The point? There are always going to be "firsts" and other notable occasions that stick in our minds. Obviously the gentelman who remembers Virgil is not a fan of the organ. Is that Virgil's fault? It's probably the fault of the organ music he'd heard in church, or rather that it was played by far less musical (and flamboyant) organists. One certainly doesn't think of V.F.'s playing as the typical wedding or funeral music, to be sure!   I've heard a number of really fine pianists perform over the years, and have enjoyed that experience, but the number of solo piano CDs in my collection (only about 1,000 discs so far, but I'm working on getting a few more) is a microscopic fraction of that number -- easily less than five disks. Why? I just don't enjoy listening to solo piano music in the same way as I enjoy organ or choral music. Does this make (insert your preferred pianist's name here) any less a stellar musician? Of course not!   Ken Sybesma        
(back) Subject: Out of the mouths of .... From: epeterso@madison.tdsnet.com (Dr. Edward Peterson) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:22:38 -0500   I read with considerable interest my friend David Scribner's recent poste in the thread "A Question for Organ Builders." The information he provided seemed eminently suitable for a certain young lad who is studying organ at a college nearby to me but who is not (officially) a member of this list. As mentioned below, we do forward some of the "meatier" items to him to further his "education".   <Aside> Peter's life has been filled with more tragedy than anyone so young should endure (and I cannot possibly comment further) and his 'arrival' on PO-L just happened to trigger a set of circumstances whereby an avuncular educator was given the opportunity 'to create' one young person's new life.   My own postings to this list are few as I can find little reason for "preaching to the choir" on the one hand, or "screaming in the wind" on the other via a plethora of mindless blatherations (to either extreme) and I do not see that it is either necessary or advisable to comment publicly, as some do, about virtually every posting that lands in their in-box. (My own learned position on the matter is: if anyone really cares to know what I think, they'll ask - in private mail.)   At any rate, I thought the reply I received concerning David's solid observations just might be worth sharing. There is nothing whatever earthshattering in this lad's comments, but they do display a rather naive (in the kindest sense of the word) and candid quality that might be of value to someone - or several someones. The poste is quoted with permission.   Dr.Ed     >To: peterson@rosnet.com >Subject: the stuff you sent >From: "Peter Allen" <organguy@hotmail.com> >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:52:58 PST > > >Hiya again unca doc, > >Thanx for the stuff you sent me from the list. It is kewl that >there are other guyz who read it and write back with there ideas >about organs. I wish I had time to read all the mail you do >but with school I just don't. Anyway you send me the best stuff. > >Thanx for seeing that I got a good practice organ. I don't think >I would have thought of a big reed organ as a fixx for the space >problem but it is working for me. I kinda have to wonder what some of >these guyz are thinking trying to put great big pipeorgans in their >rooms or in the diningroom of their parents house. Sounds like a pretty >lame idea to me. That might work for a toaster but like you told me, >half of an organ installation is the room. No pipe organ stuck in a >little space is ever going to sound like a cathedral or a big theatre. > >I got the box with the extra reeds and I'm going to start learning how to >tune them like you showed me. I've got the little rig set up to blow the >sample pipes you gave me and maybe I'll get brave enough to try to tune >them sometime. I don't want to screw them up cause I don't know what I'm >doing and I'd be the first to admit it. That was anotgher great thing I >learned from you - its far wiser to just say straight off that you don't >know and leave it at that. Not like some guyz we know who have to stick >their two cents in about everything that is said. yuk! yuk! If I get on >the other list I will do what you said and practice 'discernment in reading' >you're right about all the half-a**ed ideas that show up on the net. And >if I post stupid stuff anywhere you read I hope you'll smack me up side of >the head. ha!ha! ouch!   <snip some assorted additional trivia and several youthful observations, indeed one might say unflattering characterisations, which, whilst accurate IMHO, hit a little too close to home on this list and probably transcend the very boundaries of good taste, not to mention the list guidelines. In the manner of an object lesson, I did give him a good cyber-smack and told him he was a rude lad, albeit accurate, and that he would be well-advised to try to exhibit good breeding and keep most of *those* opinions to himself until such time as he had both sufficient education and experience to make his commentary creditable.>   > >Thanx again and TTYL > >Peter