PipeChat Digest #227 - Saturday, January 31, 1998
 
Re:  These funny stories...
  by Alastair Disley <christie@theatreorgans.com>
Re:  These funny stories...
  by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the congregation)
  by <DudelK@AOL.com>
Re: St. Thomas, NYC
  by Ken <mewzishn@spec.net>
Re: St. Thomas, NYC
  by Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #226 - 01/30/98
  by gregory@mke.earthreach.com <gregory@mke.earthreach.com>
Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the  congregation)
  by Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the  congregation)
  by Shirley <pnst@itw.com>
Re: T.O. Pipework facades?
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Hymn harmonizations
  by Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by Otto Pebworth <opebwrth@gte.net>
Re: Test
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: St. Thomas, NYC
  by Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the   congregation)
  by Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by o\r fiol <fiol@bway.net>
Oops
  by Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net>
Re: St. Thomas, NYC
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: St. Thomas, NYC
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Oops
  by Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: T.O. Pipework facades?
  by Sean Haley <newgershwin@hotmail.com>
Re: T.O. Pipework facades?
  by Brian Pearson <bpearson@adelaide.on.net>
Re: My funny story
  by <ComposerTX@aol.com>
Re: Upsetting the congregation
  by o\r fiol <fiol@bway.net>
Re: Helping Congregations to Sing
  by Paul F. Stapel <pstapel@spectra.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: These funny stories... From: Alastair Disley <christie@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:33:42 +0000   A few years ago, when I was organist of "Churchill" (those of you who read piporg-l will know more about that!), I was called upon to do a wedding. Churchill being a little village, it was the only one that year. So I dutifully asked "Robert", our vicar, for the hymns and other music for the service, and learned them all.   The big day arrived - my first wedding! I'm not sure whether the bridegroom to be or I was more nervous! The aisle was so short that the bride was getting impatient even before I'd finished the 30 second version of the Trumpet Tune (much fun as Churchill's organ lacks any reeds!) But it had gone alright, and I'd already been paid my 50 pound fee - a fortune to someone just finished school!   It was the second hymn when the problem occured. Being somewhat new to the art of congregational accompanying, I wasn't au fait with what tunes went with which hymns. Robert never bothered about the suitability of the tunes he picked anyway - he was a words man. So I played the tune in the book next to the hymn words.   First I played the first two lines as an intro, then added full great and launched into the first verse. Solo. There wasn't much point in carrying on without the congregation, so I turned it into a second intro and coupled everything together. I was very glad that I'd had my Weetabix that morning, as full swell to full great requires the arm muscles of Arnold Swarzenegger. There were some half hearted attempts to join in, but by the end of the verse it became clear that the back half of the congregation were singing a completely different tune.   So I soldiered on with full organ, woefully inadequate for a full church. They carried on with their tune, and by the third verse the back half had persuaded the rest of the congregation that their tune was right and I was just doing some fancy arrangement. So I finally gave up on the last verse and joined in with their tune, to much evident relief. I vowed to always check the tune with the bride and groom, but only played one more wedding before I left for University and the Churchill organ was left in the disastrous hands of "Winston", who has at least done what few others have and united the church - in dislike of him...   Al   PS - a little more news on Churchill for those who emailed me saying how much they enjoyed hearing my tales of fun and games there - a recent sortie home revealed that the organ is in better shape than it has been since I first came across it - apparently a bad organist who blames his organ for his mistakes does in fact get the repairs done to the organ that the good organist (before me!) never convinced people that it needed...  
(back) Subject: Re: These funny stories... From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:12:56 -0500   Al, great story. I have had that happen too. Your thought about the bad organist blaming their failure on the organ reminds me of a church nearby which had had an awful old Baldwin electronic. The organist was awful and constantly complained that the problems were the organ's and not her's. After about twenty years they finally sprung for a nice new 2/25 pipe organ. Three weeks after it was dedicated, her playing was still awful. Believe it or not, they actually got rid of her. I was shocked. I expected them to toss the organ first! Thanks again for the story.   bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o  
(back) Subject: Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the congregation) From: DudelK@AOL.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:51:34 EST   In a message dated 98-01-30 19:02:43 EST, you write:   << Are there other theories out there what could help a non-singing congregation to open their mouths and make a joyful noise? >> I think it doesn't hurt to "line out" the melody--at least on the intro, particularly on hymns that might not be familiar -- something I picked up from listening to Fred Swann at Riverside. If there's a nice tuba or something similar, it also works for me to line out the melody in the tenor on one verse.   I suspect the problem is that many organists don't pay enough attention to the hymns, concentrating too much on preludes and postludes. I like to think I've done a fairly decent job when I get favorable comments about the hymns, rather than the organ voluntaries.   There are some excellent recordings out there showing how some of the masters do it, even without a choir to carry things. That's how I've picked up all my best ideas on enriching the hymns.  
(back) Subject: Re: St. Thomas, NYC From: Ken <mewzishn@spec.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:04:20 +0000   DM726@delphi.com wrote:   > Also, does the church have a web site?   Not that I've been able to find with metacrawler, and consulting the Diocese of New York web page. Anyone know?   Ken Sybesma        
(back) Subject: Re: St. Thomas, NYC From: Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:34:37 -0500   Ken wrote: > > DM726@delphi.com wrote: > > > Also, does the church have a web site? > > Not that I've been able to find with metacrawler, and consulting the > Diocese of New York web page. Anyone know? > > Ken Sybesma   Ken and friends,   I did not find a web page for St. Thomas, NYC but I just found a GREAT resource for churches in NYC which I'll share.   http://www.allny.com/church.html   Stan Lowkis  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #226 - 01/30/98 From: "gregory@mke.earthreach.com" <gregory@mke.earthreach.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 20:50:32 -0600   Good evening:   I have studied and played organ for nearly 40 years. I must either be slow or getting old. New vocabulary is creeping into daily usage that I am not aware of.....What's a trundel?   It sounds like a new variety of mushroom!   Now....on to something of a more lasting value.   There has been a great deal of discussion regarding hymn harmonizations. Maybe this list could collect, through it's many readers, a list of "quality" books that feature varied hymn harmonizations.   If this sounds interesting, drop a note and I will bring my collection from church to give a start to the list.   Tom Gregory First Baptist Church (An American Baptist Congregation) Waukesha WI  
(back) Subject: Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the congregation) From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:11:01 -0800   At 20:51 1/30/98 EST, DudelK@AOL.com wrote: >I suspect the problem is that many organists don't pay enough attention to the >hymns, concentrating too much on preludes and postludes.   I got sacked from one position for doing just the opposite; had the hymns with variations, embellishments, etc. down pat, but didn't concentrate enough on the liturgy...     Regards,   Bob        
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:24:11 -0600   >At the nine o'clock > service, which is Episcopalian... > The eleven o'clock service is United...   Our pair are just the opposite. Our Methodist Church likes the loud things, and the Episcopal Church likes the softer music.   Just a fact,   Kevin C. kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the congregation) From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:18:36   About "improvising" on the final stanza of a hymn:   If you're feeling particularly unoriginal, try:   "New Settings of Twenty Well-Known Hymn Tunes" by Dale Wood "Free Organ Accompaniments with Descants", Augsburg Publishing House   Or perhaps the most widely used book of published "improvs" would be:   "Free Organ Accompaniments to One Hundred Well-Known Hymn Tunes" by T. Tertius Noble J. Fischer & Bro. (a division of Belwin Mills)     There is also a book by Ellen Jane Lorenz, but I can't lay my hands on it at the moment.   These books date back about 25 years for me, and I don't know if they're still in print. The Noble book is by far the best, most exciting and most appropriate arrangements.   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: T.O. Pipework facades? From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:31:10 -0600   Sean Haley wrote: > > > > >> Anything behind swell shades whether glass or wood > >>is not a facade, but pipes behind transparent swell shades. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Hey, At least you can see the pipes! > > I suppose that is true. I will agree that seeing the pipes, even if in > a chamber with transparent swell shades, does make the pipe organ a > little more interesting, even if it is not a true facade. > > Sean Haley     My question is, why did people want to cover up the real pipes with fake ones anyway. I know in most cases, they hide the swell/great/gallery/positif/etc/etc/etc... shades, but I think that is a lot of money to waste. A First Baptist church I have attended before had a "32' Open Diapason" facade. That thing costs more than a few other ranks in the organ, and it doesn't make a sound. But, my question is here: When a church or theatre has a facade over a chamber that is NOT under expression, why is it there. I like the exposed organs better, but I also like facades that WORK.   If this doesn't make sense, excuse me, I have a bad cold, and I am drunk from cough medicine.   Nor fow,   Kevin Cartwright kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:40:32 -0800   Sheridan asked: My question is, if your congregation has NEVER had to wait between, say, the second and last verses of a hymn.... how do you get it across that they have to? :) The other side to the coin being that if I warn them, they'll probably say 'Oh no, don't do that!'   A few suggestions for doing transitions between verses without the congregation's joining in:   (1) Make your transition immediately and smoothly after the last note of the verse - don't pause. A pause is a cue to the congregation to take a breath and start singing again. I go right into the transition, many times while the congregation is still singing that last note - after a few times, they will know what you are doing.   (2) Do not start your transition with the first line of the hymn - the congregation will think that you're just off on your tempo, and start singing with you.   (3) Make up for the lack of the pause after the last note by pausing at the end of your transition - give them their cue when you want them to start singing again.   These are simple to the point of being simplistic, but very effective.   Speaking of simple transitions, one of my simplest modulations is at the end of the third verse of "Lauda anima" - from ending the verse in the key of D, I immediately replay the last line ("Alleluia," etc.) in E flat, then on with the last verse. Now Episcopalians sometimes complain about singing notes above D, but most of my congregation is/are converted Southern Baptists - they were raised to sing that E flat on a fairly regular basis, and don't mind.   Glenda Sutton   ---------- > From: Sheridan Mascall <sheridan.mascall@visionet.com.au> > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation > Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 2:08 PM > > > >>What about introductions or fanfares? Does this throw your > >>congregation or complain? > > > > Oh yes! The ones that are expected and already written (such as the > >trumpet fanfare on "God of Our Fathers") are not a problem. Introductions > >to hymns are almost always the whole hymn played through. I like to give > >the congregation time to get their hymnals up and open to the right page. > >Then we're all together. There are times, however, such as a sermon hymn, > >when a shorter intro (8 measures at least) will do. Key thing here is to > >musically help your congregation to anticipate what you're doing. > > > > > > --Shirley > > > > I'm finding this thread fascinating. The idea had never (well, rarely) > occurred to me to play the hymns other than 'vanilla'. I'm going to start > having a fiddle with some of them, and see how I go. > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Hymn harmonizations From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:51:18 -0800   Gregory,   I asked this very question a month ago on PIPORG-L, because I wanted to add to my favorite hymn harmonizations, and got no takers. Yes, I am interested. Not to steal your thunder, but I rely upon Gerre Hancock's books (several volumes), Noel Rawsthorne (I just got in the sequel book today, and have not looked at it), and T. Tertius Noble. I also have two volumes of David Johnson's which I use once in a while. I have bought a book by Colin Mawby, but seldom use it. I have looked at a few of John Ferguson's, but have not invested in any, and have heard good things about John Rutter's, but again have not looked at or bought any.   Please share your favorites!   Glenda Sutton      
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: Otto Pebworth <opebwrth@gte.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:56:34 -0500   Glenda wrote: > Now Episcopalians sometimes complain about singing > notes above D, but most of my congregation is/are converted Southern > Baptists - they were raised to sing that E flat on a fairly regular basis, > and don't mind.     ---> Two weeks ago, we were doing "The Church's One Foundation," and I did an interlude between 4/5, had a concentration "hiccup", and took the hymn up to F from Eb (meant to just go up to E). Everybody stayed with me (somehow..)!!!  
(back) Subject: Re: Test From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:55:14 -0600   Jason D. Comet wrote: > > >Bitte schreiben-sie nicht mehr auf deutsch weill es zu viel Leute gibt > >dass > >nichts von Deutsch verstehen koennen. Ich bin blind und mein > >Geschprochssoftware kann nicht Deutsch lesen. > > > >Vielen dank, > ************************ > Sorry, I'm not German. I can identify what German writing is, but I > can't read it. > > DON'T bother to translate. > > Jason Comet > bombarde8@juno.com     Ha! Ha! Ha! I can't resist, "Vielen dank" means "much thanks," or when truely translated, "thank you very much..."   Just had to,   Kevin C. kevin1@alaweb.com  
(back) Subject: Re: St. Thomas, NYC From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:16:34 -0500 (EST)   Excerpts from mail: 30-Jan-98 Re: St. Thomas, NYC by Prestant16@aol.com > that > it has spread throughout the organ a Quintadena Chorus of : 32', 16', 8', 5 > 1/3', 4', and maybe 2'. All you hrear when say a C cord is played is a C > chord and a G chord. I call those stops a waste of space. Don't get me > wrong, I really look highly upon GDH's work, but the Quintadenas are a little > bit much. > I have before me A-S's fold-out brochure on St. Thomas [they had a series of these on their Leviathan instruments] and I see no such 'chorus' of quintadenas (which stop, BTW, was a Hope-Jones invention, yes?] There is a 32' Quintaton in the Grand Choeur, also available on the Pedal, which at least one A-S staffer who worked on the install has labeled a failure along the lines of 'expensive draught' (32' octave). And there are 16' quintatons/quintades/quintflotes as manual doubles, but that seems about it, at least in print. To be sure, some of the 8'-and-up stopped flutes (by whatever names) MAY have been voiced with prominent twelfths. I can't speak to any revisions to the original stoplist (as to an added quintadena chorus). Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re: Helping Congregations to Sing (Was Re: Upsetting the congregation) From: Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:23:05 -0500 (EST)   Hymn Harmonizations:   I use the Noel Goemanne _Two Hundred Last Verses_ and _More Last Verses_. That gives you four hundred reharmonizations in the standard keys of hymnals. They get my Catholics to sing, so they've got to have *some* merit.   -Stephen    
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: "o\r fiol" <fiol@bway.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:27:19 -0600   Any selfrespecting Southerner exposed to shapenote singing in childhood can sing higher than an e-flat, honey.   Love, Orlando    
(back) Subject: Oops From: Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:26:15 -0500 (EST)   Those two books I just talked about are not by Goemanne, but by Rawsthorne *blush*. I'll look at my music before I talk about it from now on, otherwise I'll end up talking about J.S. Beethoven or Felix Liszt or some other such screw-up.   -Stephen    
(back) Subject: Re: St. Thomas, NYC From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:31:32 EST   In a message dated 98-01-30 23:19:24 EST, you write:   << There is a 32' Quintaton in the Grand Choeur, also available on the Pedal, which at least one A-S staffer who worked on the install has labeled a failure along the lines of 'expensive draught' (32' octave).   That's very interesting- I do not remember any such rank. Obviously- it was removed under the direction of Herr Self. Yes- there are Quintadenas here and there, but, at least currently- not as described above.     And there are 16' quintatons/quintades/quintflotes as manual doubles, but that seems about it, at least in print. Ditto my last sentence. (sorry- my fault)     To be sure, some of the 8'-and-up stopped flutes (by whatever names) MAY have been voiced with prominent twelfths. Not that I recall, or at least not in recent years. Prominenet? Well- at least not to the extent of a Quintadena or Pommer.     I can't speak to any revisions to the original stoplist (as to an added quintadena chorus).   I do not recall such.   Scott Foppiano  
(back) Subject: Re: St. Thomas, NYC From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:33:08 EST   In a message dated 98-01-30 23:19:24 EST, you write:   << There is a 32' Quintaton in the Grand Choeur, also available on the Pedal, >>   There is currently (and for the past many years) a 32' Montre on the Grand Choeur, which is also available in the Pedal as well. And what a beauty it is!   Scott Foppiano  
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:58:15 -0800   Any selfrespecting Southerner exposed to shapenote singing in childhood can sing higher than an e-flat, honey.   Love, Orlando   (1) I'm born and raised Southerner, (2) I'm born and raised Southern Baptist, "converted" to Episcopalianism, (3) meaning no disrespect, I ain't your honey, and (4) that's exactly the point I was making.   Glenda Sutton    
(back) Subject: Re: Oops From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:01:07 -0800   I guessed that you were speaking of Rawsthorne - that's OK.   Glenda Sutton      
(back) Subject: Re: T.O. Pipework facades? From: "Sean Haley" <newgershwin@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:01:44 PST   Kevin, I don't know how good your organ building history is, but the thing with facades has been around even before Bach. With Victorian organs (those from the 19th century) they had very elaborate hand painted facade pipe work that are, IMHO, a little more interesting then the plain pipework. Most of the time it was done with the case work to make the case look more interesting than just a great big box used to reflect the sound from the pipes. It had much more visual appeal with the design. Most unenclosed divisions are not utilizing facades any more as a modern thing. Facades are more or less a visual trend in the history of organ building. I hope that made some sense.   Sean Haley   >My question is, why did people want to cover up the real pipes with fake >ones anyway. I know in most cases, they hide the >swell/great/gallery/positif/etc/etc/etc... shades, but I think that is a >lot of money to waste. A First Baptist church I have attended before >had a "32' Open Diapason" facade. That thing costs more than a few >other ranks in the organ, and it doesn't make a sound. But, my question >is here: When a church or theatre has a facade over a chamber that is >NOT under expression, why is it there. I like the exposed organs >better, but I also like facades that WORK. > >If this doesn't make sense, excuse me, I have a bad cold, and I am drunk >from cough medicine. > >Nor fow, > >Kevin Cartwright >kevin1@alaweb.com     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: T.O. Pipework facades? From: bpearson@adelaide.on.net (Brian Pearson) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:30:47 +0930   > Just a quick responSe, > > Anything behind swell shades whether glass or wood=20 >is not a facade, but pipes behind transparent swell shades.   We knew that Sean! There WERE a few organs in theatres with true facade pipes, and others with dummies, but some of us theatre and theatre organ historians read into the original posting a desire to know whether there were any theatre organs where speaking pipes were actually visible, as distinct from the almost universal practice of hiding the organ to=20 make it appear that the glorious all-enveloping sound emanated magically from the very fabric of the palace in which we lucky people sat entranced. In some all too few places lucky people can still have that never-to-be- forgotten experience. I hope that one day you will too.   Cheers,=20 Brian, Capri Theatre, Adelaide, South Australia. =20      
(back) Subject: Re: My funny story From: ComposerTX@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:18:44 EST   In 1971 [?] Reuben Frels of Victoria, TX was installing the 3-manual tracker in Holy Family Catholic Church in Fort Worth. The old Hammond [you know, those organs with all those drawbacks] was still in the choir loft and was used for the Sunday masses the week after the facade of the tracker had been installed. But one lady, overcome with emotion, approached the organ builder after mass, and exuded, "Oh, Mr. Frels, the organ sounded just GLORIOUS this morning!" I think he quit building organs. LOL Danny Ray ComposerTX  
(back) Subject: Re: Upsetting the congregation From: "o\r fiol" <fiol@bway.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:28:24 -0600   Dear Glenda,   I only wrote "honey" to give my message a stereotypical Southern flavor; it was meant in pure and utter jest.   Sorry, Orlando    
(back) Subject: Re: Helping Congregations to Sing From: "Paul F. Stapel" <pstapel@spectra.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:45:30 -0500   At 06:51 PM 1/30/98, Shirley wrote: >.. > >Are there other theories out there what could help a non-singing >congregation to open their mouths and make a joyful noise?   Besides not having a good singing/music program in the church or schools (which is the first killer to good hymn singing), the acoustics of the church tell a lot to a congregation's ears -- if they can hear themselves too well and the accompaniment is 'too far away' they tend not to want to sing too obviously -- can't embarass themselves in front of the people around them!! Very live acoustics needs more 'breaks' in the organ line to keep notes from running into each other...dead acoustics needs lots of connection to keep the flow going..   Paul S