PipeChat Digest #396 - Saturday, May 30, 1998
 
Re: Wedding Fees
  by "Greg" <homza@indiana.edu>
Re: Darn!
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: small FernFlute society
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Re: The Dark Truths Behind Kevin's Thwarted Organ Access
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
RE: Locked Consoles and Limited Access
  by "SM Fitzgerald" <orgel@shianet.org>
Organist fees for weddings and funerals...What do you get?
  by "SM Fitzgerald" <orgel@shianet.org>
Re: Locked Consoles and Limited Access
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Locked Consoles and Limited Access
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Wedding Fees
  by <ComposerTX@aol.com>
Re: Organist fees for weddings and funerals
  by <ComposerTX@aol.com>
Re: small organ society
  by <Ophicleide@aol.com>
Re: our re-built Kilgen
  by <Ophicleide@aol.com>
Re: small FernFlute society
  by <Ophicleide@aol.com>
Jenny's English organ
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: The Dark Truths Behind Kevin's Thwarted Organ Access
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Jen's Dilemma
  by "Vernon Moeller" <vernonm@ccsi.com>
Re: New Email list
  by "Shirley" <pnst@itw.com>
Water Motors
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: Wedding Fees
  by <pniki@firstavenue.com>
Re: Stars & Stripes For 4 Hands
  by "Shirley" <pnst@itw.com>
Re:
  by "Shirley" <pnst@itw.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Wedding Fees From: Greg <homza@indiana.edu> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 04:30:50 -0500 (EST)   On Fri, 29 May 1998 ComposerTX@aol.com wrote:   > At my church, we charge a consultation fee of $75 for any couple who decides > to NOT use me to play either piano and/or organ for a service that DOES > require music. If another organist/pianist or Aunt Maude plays, I approve them > upon hearing them play, and my fee is $75.   But what if Aunt Maude, D.M.A., FAGO, has a degree in music? Is it still necessary that the couple (who likely have plenty of other expenses to worry about) pay this ridiculous fee?   > If they use a string quartet or a solo flautist or a visiting choir, I > approve them upon hearing them perform, and my fee is $75.   But by having to perform for you to get your "approval," a string quartet, or solo flautist, or visiting choir would likely also have to be paid for the time it takes to play for you. Again, how is this fair to the people who are paying the bills?   > Having a consultation with each couple assures that the music presented > in the marriage mass is of equal quality to the other music in > other masses.   Wait a minute...first of all, isn't "Mass" written with a capital "M?" Secondly, how is this "consultation" worth anything *near* $75, and furthermore, what is the point of you "consulting" with them at all? Shouldn't this be left up to the couple and the person who will ultimately be performing the music? Are your clergy so clueless that they wouldn't be able to tell a couple or musician what's appropriate and what's not? Presumably not, so...why do you even have to be involved? Pardon me for saying so, but to me, the above statement sounds sorta like, "I don't want someone who can play rings around me sitting on my bench, or else I'll look incompetent." Granted, this may not be your intent, but I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not sure what level of musical "quality" you presume exists at your church, but (again, just to me) it seems awfully presumptuous of you to assume that Aunt Maude is automatically a bad player, just because you don't know her -- and equally ludicrous that someone should have to fork out $75 to get your "approval" for her to play.   Man, what's up with that? I just hope no friends of mine decide to get married at your church...and moreso, I hope that no friends of yours decide to get married in mine! ($$$ch-ching$$$)   -greg homza Bloomington, IN (where the alcohol flows like a river after tonight's Pacer's victory...but only because we have to fool ourselves into thinking that the Hoosiers did as well this season...)      
(back) Subject: Re: Darn! From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 06:11:00 EDT   In a message dated 98-05-28 08:20:00 EDT, you write:   << Bruce Cornely wrote: "Something I've learned from experience which has helped keep my mind at ease in such situations: The more protected an organ is....the less likely it is to be worth playing." >>   The organ at my church, a 103 rank, 5 manual Schantz/Skinner (1982) is left open and available to ANYONE who asks. The donor wished it so, and the present music director (me) and worship committee wishes it so. Forget the squeak-boxes--come enjoy!   Steven Skinner First Presbyteraian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA  
(back) Subject: Re: small FernFlute society From: Mac Hayes <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 04:14:00 -0700   sohmer@juno.com wrote: > ... > from what the then organist, Viola ...   Ah, Viola-- reminds me of one of my first girlfriends... sigh.   > the organ was a bit of a dog, but fun, anyway...   Sounds like an opening for cremona84000 here.   > with its FernFlute on the great...   As I recall from my last delve into the German-Englische dictionary, "fern" has to do with distant or remote. Did the FernFlute have a distant, echo-ey quality to it? (And am I forgiven for preferring German chorale titles untranslated?)     -- Mac Hayes mach37@ptw.com Cogito per aspera    
(back) Subject: Re: The Dark Truths Behind Kevin's Thwarted Organ Access From: Paul Opel <popel@sover.net> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 07:56:37 -0400   Not an organ with a locked console, but similarly, my harpsichord. As it is rare to find a working harpsichord at most small performance venues, I have to cart my Hubbard French double around when I play away from the church I keep it in. I used to have a lock on the lid, to keep out the curious. I no longer do- the lock has been broken twice by people who want to get to the instrument, but I've never had any damage done when the instrument's been open.   Another view-   Paul Opel   http://www.sover.net/~popel      
(back) Subject: RE: Locked Consoles and Limited Access From: "SM Fitzgerald" <orgel@shianet.org> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:41:36 -0400   In my parish where I am full-time employed as music director/organist, I'm almost never absent for weddings: I usually schedule my other stuff around them. But there are occasions where I must be absent (like my forthcoming honeymoon!). It's hard enough to find an organist who can substitute for me that when I finally do, I opt out of any fee I might collect. I still organize the wedding with the organist, the wedding party and the priest, and run the consultation for the planning. Then the rest is up to them.   On another front within this topic, it has always struck me strange that organists are so protective of their instruments that a visiting organist needs a writ of consent from the very church founders to gain access to the instrument. I often visit churches when I travel, but often cannot gain any access to the organ despite presenting my credentials to the church secretary. Most of the time, the organist only works there part time and is away at some other day job, so he or she cannot even be reached for permission. The church is completely empty, the organ silent, and the staff immovable. Now I know that in churches that also function as tourist exhibits (like St. Pat's in New York, and the basilica at Notre Dame), gaining access to those instruments would be understandably harder. And I understand that organists don't want their combination action over-written, but isn't a played organ a happy organ? There are some wonderful medium sized instruments sitting in little churches all over that hardly ever get played!   If any of you are EVER in Owosso, Michigan, you are more than happy to stop by and have all the fun you desire at our organ! Of course, our organ gets played several hours each day, so indeed it is very happy.   Peace.   Scott M. Fitzgerald Director of Music Ministry/Organist St. Paul Catholic Church Owosso, Michigan, USA http://www.shianet.org/~orgel   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of bruce cornely Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 4:44 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Locked Consoles and Limited Access     In my parish we allow visiting organists or pianists, etc., for weddings, but I am paid a fee (half the usual) for supervising/hosting the visitor and the use of the church's organ, piano or sound equipment. If the visitor is someone who is acquainted with the organ, etc., or does not need to use it, then I waive the fee since I do not have to be there. It was customary years ago to pay the organists usual fee for weddings when visiting because weddings and funerals were considered part of the salary package.   bruce o h s __________ a g o cornely o o __________ o o ........... cremona84000@webtv.net ...........     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Organist fees for weddings and funerals...What do you get? From: "SM Fitzgerald" <orgel@shianet.org> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:49:06 -0400   Hello again all,   All this talk of visiting organists begs the question: How much do you get paid for a wedding or funeral? Is it part of your church salary if you are employed by the church? Is it extra? Is what you get the going rate in your community or more or less?   In Owosso, Michigan, a rural community with a mixture of blue collar GM workers, farmers, and educated white collar workers, I get $100 for a wedding at my church (Catholic), or $125-150 for a wedding at another church. I'm a multi-instrumentalist and can provide singing, guitar, and piano in addition to organ. I send out a brochure with the guidelines prior to planning (which I can make available to anyone who wants to use any part of it), I meet with the couple once to plan, give them a computer print-out of what we decide, DO NOT attend the rehearsal, and provide the standard 15 minute prelude music with the wedding. I try to get paid prior to the wedding mass itself, but it doesn't always work out that way.   For funerals, I get $45 for the mass. For this I also provide a brochure of guidelines for those who request input into the music. We have a funeral choir of about 20 senior citizens whom I direct from the console.   At my parish and at other churches, I perform about 30-40 weddings a year, and about 50-60 funerals.   How about you??   Peace.   Scott M. Fitzgerald Director of Music Ministry/Organist St. Paul Catholic Church Owosso, Michigan, USA http://www.shianet.org/~orgel    
(back) Subject: Re: Locked Consoles and Limited Access From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 09:52:26 EDT   In a message dated 5/29/98 5:18:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=0Abfus7@cent= ral.susx.ac.uk writes:   << So. I'm now earning about =A3100 pounds a saturday for lying in bed! I can't really spend the money. I'd feel too guilty. >>   Find a reputable organ teacher near your old church, sponsor lessons for = a=0Apromising student.   Vicki Ceruti=0A    
(back) Subject: Re: Locked Consoles and Limited Access From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:08:57 EDT   In a message dated 5/29/98 10:23:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=0Abfus7@cen= tral.susx.ac.uk writes:   << I can't believe you dont have a =A3 sign on your computer. We have a $. >>   We have it, Jen.... it's just buried in a semi-secret file with all the o= ther=0Anon-American characters.=0A    
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding Fees From: <ComposerTX@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:16:10 EDT   You wrote: But what if Aunt Maude, D.M.A., FAGO, has a degree in music? Is it still necessary that the couple (who likely have plenty of other expenses to worry about) pay this ridiculous fee? Our approach, or "default setting," is that weddings requiring music will use parish musicians. Yes, the $75 fee helps insure that. Yes, I will meet with any CAGO, AAGO, or FAGO who has been asked to play. They may not need my help, and, once I have met with them, then I KNOW that they don't. And as far as fees the poor children have to pay, I'd rather them pay me 1/3 what they pay their photographer or 1/5 what they pay their florist!   You wrote: But by having to perform for you to get your "approval," a string quartet, or solo flautist, or visiting choir would likely also have to be paid for the time it takes to play for you. Again, how is this fair to the people who are paying the bills? I always have a "telephone consultation" with the couple, and it is then that I tell them what to expect and what to bring at the consultation. I allow them to present me a tape of the performer or performers when the circumstances dictate. However, it's only happened 3 times in 4 years. The people who are paying the bills, have chosen to have a service that requires "bill paying."   You wrote: Wait a minute...first of all, isn't "Mass" written with a capital "M?" Secondly, how is this "consultation" worth anything *near* $75, and furthermore, what is the point of you "consulting" with them at all? Shouldn't this be left up to the couple and the person who will ultimately be performing the music? Are your clergy so clueless that they wouldn't be able to tell a couple or musician what's appropriate and what's not? Presumably not, so...why do you even have to be involved? Pardon me for saying so, but to me, the above statement sounds sorta like, "I don't want someone who can play rings around me sitting on my bench, or else I'll look incompetent." Granted, this may not be your intent, but I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm not sure what level of musical "quality" you presume exists at your church, but (again, just to me) it seems awfully presumptuous of you to assume that Aunt Maude is automatically a bad player, just because you don't know her -- and equally ludicrous that someone should have to fork out $75 to get your "approval" for her to play.   The consultation that we require and provide is more than a "yes you can," "no you can't" meeting. I tour the couple through the building, showing them where they and their attendants will gather to dress. We walk through the entire ceremony -- where they stand, kneel, light the candel, offer the gifts, observe the Gifts to the Virgin, receive the Bible, the coins, the veil, the lasso, etc. I ask about their preferences in music for the ceremony. Usually the only difficulty appears when explaining why music other than sacred music is not used in the Mass. I've never spent less than 45 minutes in a face-to- face consultation. So, my role is a LITTLE bit like a wedding consultant. The priests won't spend that kind of time with the couple on that level, but they are grateful that I DO. I am a competent musician, and we welcome other competent musicians . . . that's the point, "competent musicians." Once I hear them perform, then I know. Then, my responsibility to the Monsignor and the Diocese has been satisfied.   Danny Ray ComposerTX@AOL.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Organist fees for weddings and funerals From: <ComposerTX@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:28:09 EDT   In a message dated 98-05-30 09:51:25 EDT, you write:   << All this talk of visiting organists begs the question: How much do you get paid for a wedding or funeral? Is it part of your church salary if you are employed by the church? Is it extra? Is what you get the going rate in your community or more or less? >>   I charge $75 for the consultation if parish musician will NOT be used. If I play, my fee is $150. If a parish musician/singer performs, their fee is $75 and my fee goes up $25. If a non-parish musician/singer performs, my fee goes up $75. I do not attend the "night before" rehearsal. But I do rehearse with the musicians as needed.   I charge $100 for a funeral; that include any rehearsal needed.   Danny Ray ComposerTX@AOL.com  
(back) Subject: Re: small organ society From: <Ophicleide@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:34:11 EDT   > Does anybody know anything about 'water blowing equipment'? As far as > I knew early organs relied on hand pumping.   Funny you should ask - this is an interesting bit of trivia. In 1912 Immanuel Lutheran in in Pensacola, FL installed a Pilcher tracker instrument. In the early 1900's the city of Pensacola provided water free of charge to all. Instead of using expensive electricity or inconvenient hand blowing, a water blower was installed - it operated like a modernized water mill wheel with the free city water spinning the wheel which with a litte ratioed gearwork ran the blower. This water blower was in operation until 1929 when the the city started charging for water ;-)   Incidentally, to my dismay, delight and chagrin, they just installed a big Zimmer Digi/Pipe keeping a few of the Pilcher Principal ranks. Dismay because I hate seeing old instruments replaced or butchered instead of restored just because someone wants a mixture or some additional reeds. It was a delightful 7 rank instrument (although in the 1950's they had electrified the action - major shame!). Delight beacuse it has to be the best "combination" instrument I have heard, although the reeds are atrocious, but I think could be helped a bit by some judicious & artistic voicing. Chagrin because the organist, bless her soul, like many of us including me - your basic hometown dependable competent but certainly not Bish material organist, was perfectly at home with the Pilcher and now she is expected play this fabulous techno wonder Boeing 747 which the church is showing off to the community with a recital series. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes even with gold lame' and pompoms.   ............................................................................... .................................. Douglas McMurry <Ophicleide@aol.com> Holy Cross Metropolitan Community Church Pensacola, FL "Minds are like parachutes, they only function when open!"    
(back) Subject: Re: our re-built Kilgen From: <Ophicleide@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:21:02 EDT   > All are invited. Accessible. Free.   for a $75 consultation fee after you pass the entrance examination   .... ;-) sorry, this probably should have been private, but you left yourself wide open and I just couldn't pass it up.   ............................................................................... ................. Douglas McMurry <Ophicleide@aol.com> Holy Cross MCC "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it Pensacola, FL you will land among the stars." -- Les Brown    
(back) Subject: Re: small FernFlute society From: <Ophicleide@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:25:25 EDT   Fern Flute: an instrument only to be played in Fern Bars such as Bennigan's & TGIFridays. Particularly effective when used in an endless loop tape playing the music of Claude Bolling ;-)  
(back) Subject: Jenny's English organ From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:57:22 -0400   Jenny, your church sounds like the one Stephen Bicknell described in his story "The Roundhay Worm", sent to the lists last year. Let me know if you would like to read it, it is a fascinating piece of writing.  
(back) Subject: Re: The Dark Truths Behind Kevin's Thwarted Organ Access From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:49:29 -0500 (CDT)   At 07:56 AM 5/30/98 -0400, Paul Opel wrote:   >Not an organ with a locked console, but similarly, my harpsichord. As it is >rare to find a working harpsichord at most small performance venues, I have >to cart my Hubbard French double around when I play away from the church I >keep it in. I used to have a lock on the lid, to keep out the curious. I no >longer do- the lock has been broken twice by people who want to get to the >instrument, but I've never had any damage done when the instrument's been >open.   This rather accords with my experience as an organbuilder. I have generally found that people do a lot more damage trying to get into locked organ consoles than they do when the console is open. If the organ has ivory keys, it also helps them not to yellow if the console is kept open so that they are exposed to the bleaching effects of sunlight. The same is not, however, true of organ cases and organ chambers -- they very definitely need to be kept locked.   John.   John.    
(back) Subject: Re: Jen's Dilemma From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 10:02:55   Jen said: >So. I'm now earning about =A3100 pounds a saturday for lying in bed! >I can't really spend the money. I'd feel too guilty. =20 >   Simple. Cash the checks and give the money back to the church. This will ease your conscience and, if your country's tax laws are like ours, you can deduct the amount of the checks as a gift to a non-profit organization, so giving the money to the church will make them happy, you happy and the IRS (or whatever your country calls the tax collectors) happy.   BTW, one of my former girlfriends makes a good 250 pounds every Saturday for lying in bed, although I think she's probably a bit more active. Plus she gets to meet lots of interesting (?) people.   \/\/\    
(back) Subject: Re: New Email list From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:54:08   At 11:12 05/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hello > What are the addresses for some of those lists? >Beau Surratt     OK, here goes, and these are just the church lists that I'm aware of:   ANGLICAN-MUSIC-Request@dragon.com listproc@prairienet.org (Command: Subscribe music-list) music-ministry-subscribe@associate.com Majordomo@churchoffice.com (Command: Subscribe churchmusic-l name)     There is another church music one out there which I had subscribed to for a time, till I saw that their theology and mine don't match. TMSJ or something? Can anybody help Beau with that one?   And Beau, honestly: Good luck with your list. I guess I question your reasoning for starting it. Seems to me it was a reaction to some offtopic borderline bad-taste humor on piporg-l. If you don't like piporg-l (and it has its days), then unsub it and join one or more of these others. But if you feel your list will get subscribers that will stay longer than a couple of months, then go for it. Also, list ownership has its responsibillities and its headaches. Are you sure you're ready for that over time?   --Shirley      
(back) Subject: Water Motors From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 08:57:23 -0400   I remember seeing an organ run on a water motor (set up for us) at the OHS Convention in a small town in Michigan. The pump was out on the sidewalk and the water running down the street!  
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding Fees From: pniki@firstavenue.com Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:57:56 -0400   >>> At my church, we charge a consultation fee of $75 for any couple who decides >>> to NOT use me to play either piano and/or organ for a service that DOES >>> require music. If another organist/pianist or Aunt Maude plays, I approve >them >>> upon hearing them play, and my fee is $75.   >But what if Aunt Maude, D.M.A., FAGO, has a degree in music? Is it still >necessary that the couple (who likely have plenty of other expenses to >worry about) pay this ridiculous fee?   etc, etc.   Usually the rationale behind charging a fee whether the incumbent plays or not follows something like this:   1) I am the incumbent musician and part of the contract I have with the church says that I provide the music for the church and that I am paid an additional fee for service for incidentals like weddings. If that is true, then I can assume that there will be a certain number of weddings in a year and I will budget for the income which I can justly expect to receive. (Most churches are remarkably consistent in the number of weddings they do in a year. My own does between 10 and 15, I know of a church in Toronto that does between 250 and 300 - 4 to 6 every Saturday). In my church I can count on about $1,000 a year in wedding income. At Islington United in Toronto, the organist counts on $15,000 to $20,000 in income - it suddenly goes a long way to paying the bills. If Aunt Maudes keep showing up and playing for these weddings, I am out of work. Should I not be compensated?   2) While $75 is somewhat large for a "consultation", no one would blink an eye at paying that kind of fee for other professional services. I don't know about you, but I started training for my profession when I was six years old (I didn't know I ws going to do it for a living then!) and finished formal training 21 years later. Show me any other non-arts-related profession that comes close to that kind of apprenticeship! Should I be always underpaid, particularly for the essentially secular function of playing for a wedding - face it folks, 90% of the people you play for don't see it as a service of worship. Some of the congregations at weddings can't even get through the Lord's prayer, let alone figure out when to say amen. I'll settle for half the photographer's or florist's bill or a quarter the cost of the wedding gown.....   3) I have that provision in my contract - to be paid whether I play or not - and use it as a job protection tool in the sense that if I think someone is bargain hunting at my expense - so and so will play for $50 and you cost $100 - then I have the right to charge my fee. I have NEVER yet invoked that fee since I'm happy to have the day off. I HATE playing for weddings. I look forward to the day when I only play for weddings of friends and family, which I do for free. I am delighted when I don't give up my only day off to sit through a wedding. I could be out gardening or shopping or walking or sleeping. All of which I prefer to weddings.   4) I have less quibble with the quality issue. We have a policy on texts for sung music. We do not make judgements on musical craftsmanship - read if you want victorian or pop crap, it's your wedding, just make sure the theology is adequate. If people want to grace their weddings with incompetent performers, relatives or otherwise, far be it for me to judge. Again, it's your wedding.   Time to sign off. I have to go play for a wedding.   Peter Nikiforuk     Message routed through FIRSTline's SMTP Gateway.   First Avenue Information Systems Inc. People. Solutions. Service. (519) 746-5630    
(back) Subject: Re: Stars & Stripes For 4 Hands From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:07:37   Vernon wrote about a potential arrangement for 4-handed keyboards (meaning pipe organ and piano).   I remember a recording by George Wright, I think, that I used as a model for a two-handed theatre-organ arrangement of it. And yes, it IS possible to plonk out the melody on second touch in the left hand while keeping an oom-pah rhythm between the rest of the fingers of the left hand and the pedal, while twinkling away on the piccolo part in the right hand.   Been there, done that, not that difficult once you've learned the piccolo part. --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:59:07   At 19:25 05/29/98 BST, you wrote: > >Hi. > >Theres a new list if anyones interested. > >'Organ builder'. A list for dicussing all areas of organ building. > >Its at http://www.onelist.com > >Click on music, and then instruments and your there. > >No nasty comments please, I am just making you aware of it!! > >Jen.     And now one that overlaps Orgue-l. <<sigh>> Oh well, whosever it is, good luck with it! I truly hope it flies for you.   --Shirley