PipeChat Digest #579 - Thursday, November 5, 1998
 
Positions available
  by "gregory@mke.earthreach.com" <gregory@mke.earthreach.com>
Re: Position Available
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: Looking for Mark Huth from Rodgers  (X-Posted)
  by "John (Jack) Cormack" <jackjack@erols.com>
Re: Darasse organ competition
  by "rollin smith" <rollinsmithv@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Salaries
  by <George.Greene@rossnutrition.com>
Re: Salaries
  by "Robert  Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net>
Re: Geo. Greene @ salaries
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
RE: Geo. Greene @ salaries
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Position Available
  by "Steven L. Egler" <Steven.Egler@cmich.edu>
"Barrel" Organs
  by "Bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
Small Organs at ATOS SF convention.
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Canadian Brass Contact Info......
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
 


(back) Subject: Positions available From: "gregory@mke.earthreach.com" <gregory@mke.earthreach.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 06:17:19 -0600   Greetings:   Comparing teaching positions to organist positions is like comparing apples to oranges. You really can't do it.   My church position pays rather poorly (approximately 10,000), but my teaching position (elementary music 1 - 6) pays well over 50,000. which is about average for experienced teachers in larger systems in Wisconsin. I have had over 30 years experience.   I am sure I could find a different playing position with more $, but I am happy with the working conditions, instruments, etc.   Tom Gregory  
(back) Subject: Re: Position Available From: Paul Opel <popel@sover.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:37:29 -0400   The position Bud growls about was posted to the other list, but I'll respond to pipechat to keep some perspective.   Hello! I respectfully suggest that here in Vermont, public school teachers' salaries do begin in the LOW $20s (with masters' degrees)- and that's for full time work. They max out in the mid $30s, with masters' degrees. Given the other opportunities (weddings, teaching, etc) for church musicians to supplement their salaries, I find the salary quite within reasonable range for this state.   Granted, much of whatever else one might earn in this position might be earmarked for Rogaine to replace the hair blown off by the mighty mixtures on the Wilhelm.   Paul Opel   > >>An open position was just posted on one of the lists ... nice organ and >>facilities, desirable area. It contained the following: >> >>"salary mid $20s, master's degree preferred (!!!)" >> >>Hello! I respectfully suggest that the church posting that notice >>investigate what public school teachers are making these days, with or >>without a master's. >> >>Regards, >> >>Bud the Growly Old Organ Bear >>     And if you multiply the below out, the teacher's salary is for 1440 hours per year- so the organist is making out better by the hour. Not everyone is paid like a Wall Street broker!   Paul   Hi List-- In response to K. Moyer's assessment of the hours versus the pay versus the organist versus the teacher,,,I observe the following-- most teachers that this ole man knows only work 180 days per year,,,,,thats 26 weeks,,,the required amount of school, at least in New Jersey where I hail from. So,,,, 1248 hours(organist time) divided into 26 weeks gives one the answer of 48 hours per week,,,,as a comparison on the "teaching" basis. I dont know of any teacher,,,not even those right out of school that makes the paltry sum of say 25K per year, which was stated for the organist position. The comment "masters preferred" adds insult to injury IMHO.   Cheers, Roc   http://www.sover.net/~popel      
(back) Subject: Re: Looking for Mark Huth from Rodgers (X-Posted) From: "John (Jack) Cormack" <jackjack@erols.com> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:11:51 -0500   At 12:03 PM 11/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >Good morning, lists. > >I need to get in touch with Mark Huth from Rodgers Instrument >Corporation. I need to get some information in order to solve a >technical problem with one of their instruments. > >Could someone EMAIL me privately with his address, or, Mark, if you read >this, please get in touch with me ASAP? > >Thanks! ==================================================== Mark Huth's address is: "Mark Huth" <mhuth@rodgers.rain.com>   Sincerely,   Jack Cormack Potomac, Maryland =================================================== > >Faithfully, > >Richard Schneider, President >SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. >Kenney, IL 61749-0137 >(217) 944-2454 VOX >(217) 944-2527 FAX >mailto: arpncorn@davesworld.net EMAIL > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Darasse organ competition From: "rollin smith" <rollinsmithv@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:09:03 -0500   It sounds utterly "French" to me--look who the competition's named for. Read his article on Vierne in the NEW GROVE!   Rollin    
(back) Subject: Re: Salaries From: George.Greene@rossnutrition.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:32:42 -0500     I enjoy watching football as much as the next person, but isn't it a sad commentary on our society when a professional athlete makes tens of millions of dollars per year (plus endorsements!) while a teacher, with perhaps the most important job in the country, is lucky to break $20,000? It really shows where our priorities lie! To make this post somewhat "organic", churches often fall into the same trap; they're willing to pay hundreds of thousands on facilities but expect the music program to operate on pocket change...)      
(back) Subject: Re: Salaries From: "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:10:13 -0600   > churches often fall > into the same trap; they're willing to pay hundreds of thousands on facilities > but expect the music program to operate on pocket change...) > > Well put....Unfortunately, the mind set on the part of many is that we just slide on the bench on Sunday morning and start playing. Few realize how much energy is spent just on one well played hymn.   Robert Eversman Mineral Point, WI       > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: Re: Geo. Greene @ salaries From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:17:11 -0500   Hi, Mr. Greene..........My sentiments exactly on sports vs. music salaries. So many churches relegate the music end to some little old lady organist no offence, girls ) who has played there for a hundred years with pittance for compensation. What about the organ up-keep??!! Many times they don't work- or barely at all- and are in dire need of tuning and maintanience. Forget the football players- they don't need your money. Give it to God in musical praise. Rick    
(back) Subject: RE: Geo. Greene @ salaries From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:25:28 -0700   > Forget the football players- they don't need your money. Give it to God in > musical praise. Rick   AMEN!   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bud <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:07:01 -0800   Dear Lists,   I think y'all are missing the point of my original post, sorta ... I have a question for the writer who pleaded that the church in question "couldn't afford" a full-time musician: they pay the Dean a full-time salary with housing and health benefits, do they not? And a secretary? And a sexton? Surely a full-time musician is at least as important, particularly in an Episcopal cathedral.   Since the beginning of time, we have been willing to work 40 hours a week at secular jobs to subsidize our church positions. THEN we give up our evenings and weekends in order to practice, compose, rehearse the choir, etc. I have worked seven days a week for close to fifty years. There needs to be a shift in OUR thinking as church musicians ... church music is a PROFESSION; it SHOULD carry with it a professional salary and benefits.   My college education was as expensive as that of a lawyer; it was acquired with a fair amount of financial difficulty. Add to that piano and organ lessons from age 5, the purchase of a piano and an organ (since the only church in town with an organ wouldn't allow anyone to practice on it ... now they wonder why they can't find an organist!), a music library that runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, travel to seminars, master-classes, workshops, etc. etc. etc.   "The laborer is worthy of his hire"   Regards,   Bud Clark    
(back) Subject: Re: Position Available From: "Steven L. Egler" <Steven.Egler@cmich.edu> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:11:08 +0000   Congratulations and good luck to you! The profession NEEDS more -- young -- people like you, my friend.   Steven Egler -- ***************************** Steven Egler Professor of Music (Organ) School of Music Central Michigan University Phone: 517.774.3326 Fax: 517.774.3766 *****************************  
(back) Subject: "Barrel" Organs From: Bud <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:44:36 -0800   I have seen the ads for electronic "barrel" organs. There was an article touting them in "Episcopal Life", which ought to know better. I've also heard some VERY funny stories about mishaps during the service when the sysop pushed the wrong button ... the possibilities are INFINITE. But the fact remains that they can't accompany unmeasured music like Anglican or Gregorian chant; nor can they take into account the variations in the rhythm of the service itself ... a short processional hymn requiring interludes, etc.   As I probably mentioned before, some of MY Vestry got VERY excited the first time I used the MIDI on our organ to play a voluntary while the choir and I received the Sacrament, UNTIL I pointed out to them that someone still had to be there at some point to play the voluntary INTO the MIDI. I suppose somebody somewhere is busily playing "canned" organ music onto disks, but I'LL never tell (grin)!   Isn't this whole discussion REALLY about the abysmally low regard accorded to church music and church musicians in this country? And what we can do to change that?   Regards,   Bud Clark    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:09:02 -0800   At 09:07 AM 11/4/98 -0800, Bud wrote:   >There needs to be a shift in OUR thinking as church musicians ... church >music is a PROFESSION; it SHOULD carry with it a professional salary and >benefits. > >"The laborer is worthy of his hire" > I reiterate: If organists WOULD think more of themselves, and force the AGO to act more like a labor organization, things could be improved. But, as long as there are people out there saying and thinking, "Gee...I'd better not ask for more money, or they'll replace me with a MIDI box!", church committees (the employers) are going to keep taking full advantage. Pastors, secretaries, even the maintenance folks wouldn't put up with this treatment...why should organists?   DeserTboB    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:10:20 EST   Bud Clark wrote: << Surely a full-time musician is at least as important, particularly in an Episcopal cathedral. Since the beginning of time, we have been willing to work 40 hours a week at secular jobs to subsidize our church positions. THEN we give up our evenings and weekends in order to practice, compose, rehearse the choir, etc....There needs to be a shift in OUR thinking as church musicians ... church music is a PROFESSION; it SHOULD carry with it a professional salary and benefits.>>   A hearty AMEN to that!!! I shall add that congregations and clergy people (being politically correct ;-) need to be educated and reminded of all that we do and have done to provide the uplifting music which they so much desire. I suggest (tongue in cheek) that we do as many other professionals do to make a point (pilots, auto workers, camera men, coal miners, etc....) STRIKE! Seriously, if all the professional organists/choirmasters/etc... were to strike on Christmas Eve then THEY would take notice... Just a nasty little thought :-)   John A. Gambill, Jr. Organist/Choirmaster Oak Cliff Christian Church Dallas, Texas  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:54:40 -0500   Drawknob wrote: I suggest (tongue in cheek) that we do as many other professionals do to make a >point (pilots, auto workers, camera men, coal miners, etc....) STRIKE! >Seriously, if all the professional organists/choirmasters/etc... were to >strike on Christmas Eve then THEY would take notice... Just a nasty little >thought :-)   Now that's being unfair to all the members of the congregation of your church, as much as airline pilots are to passengers.   It is not the ordinary guy in the pews that causes this problem, - but as ever, it is the customer who bears the brunt of "Industrial action"! I am one of those ordinary guys!   I am NOT in favour of this type of action, - and I am sure that your ideas might cause more churches to go to MIDI files! Having said that, I don't have a solution for the problem, but I am convinced that strike action is not the way to go about it! It seems to me thatif you don't like the pay or conditions of the job, then you should look for one that you do like!   If the church in question were to receive no applications for the job, then they would re-think their policy, perhaps!   Think on it some more!   Bob Conway          
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:30:34 EST   In a message dated 11/4/98 4:56:38 PM Central Standard Time, conwayb@post.queensu.ca writes:   << It seems to me thatif you don't like the pay or conditions of the job, then you should look for one that you do like! If the church in question were to receive no applications for the job, then they would re-think their policy, perhaps! Think on it some more! >>   Mr. Conway,   If you noticed I prefaced my idea with "Tongue In Cheek"... However, it potentially does merit some attention. As for my own position, I could not be happier (unless I was at Westminster Abbey or the like) and I have no ax to grind with my particular employers. I was merely adding a thought to previous strains of the thread and really did not mean to inflame anyone.   John A. Gambill, Jr. Organist/Choirmaster Oak Cliff Christian Church Dallas, Texas  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:49:24 -0500   At 06:30 PM 11/4/98 EST, John Gambill wrote: > >If you noticed I prefaced my idea with "Tongue In Cheek"... However, it >potentially does merit some attention. As for my own position, I could not be >happier (unless I was at Westminster Abbey or the like) and I have no ax to >grind with my particular employers. I was merely adding a thought to previous >strains of the thread and really did not mean to inflame anyone.   John,   You chose an unlucky example in Westminster Abbey! Martin Neary was fired by his Dean for simply doing what professional musicians at the Abbey have been doing since the time of Henry Purcell.   I did notice that you commented that your suggestion was tongue in cheek!   Bob Conway          
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:00:58 EST   In a message dated 11/4/98 5:51:12 PM Central Standard Time, conwayb@post.queensu.ca writes:   << You chose an unlucky example in Westminster Abbey! Martin Neary was fired by his Dean for simply doing what professional musicians at the Abbey have been doing since the time of Henry Purcell. >> AHHH... but the music has improved immensely since Mr. DREARY has left :-)   John  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: JKVDP@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:42:04 EST   > Martin Neary was fired >by his Dean for simply doing what professional musicians at the Abbey have >been doing since the time of Henry Purcell.   Has there been a resolution of this situation yet? Jerry  
(back) Subject: Small Organs at ATOS SF convention. From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:56:12 EST   I did attend the 1998 ATOS convention, and was delighted to hear the Monterey State's 2/13 Wurlitzer under the hands of Dennis James - WOW.   Also heard the 2/5 Wurlitzer church organ in the 1794 San Carlos Cathedral in Monterey. Walt Strony performed on this lovely gem.   Perhaps, the smaller the instrument, the smaller the venue, and thus the smaller the number of people able to hear the instrument during a single performance.   Locally, the Marion (Ohio) Palace Theatre contains a wonderful 3/10 Wurlibeast. Stan  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:03:23 EST   In a message dated 11/4/98 6:44:02 PM Central Standard Time, JKVDP@aol.com writes:   << > Martin Neary was fired >by his Dean for simply doing what professional musicians at the Abbey have >been doing since the time of Henry Purcell. Has there been a resolution of this situation yet? Jerry >>   Last I heard it's still in HM Courts and was put on the shelf in October... Does anyone know of further developments?   John  
(back) Subject: Canadian Brass Contact Info...... From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:42:16 EST   Does anyone know how to contact the Canadian Brass or their managing contacts? I am asking this forum because so many of you may have the contact info we need. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordinator National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:06:05 -0800   At 05:54 PM 11/4/98 -0500, Bob Conway wrote:   >Now that's being unfair to all the members of the congregation of your >church, as much as airline pilots are to passengers. > >It is not the ordinary guy in the pews that causes this problem, - but as >ever, it is the customer who bears the brunt of "Industrial action"! I am >one of those ordinary guys!<SNIP!>   So, if good things happen to you, that's fine, but screw the other guy. How Republican of you.   >I am NOT in favour of this type of action, - and I am sure that your ideas >might cause more churches to go to MIDI files!<RRRRRIP!>   Thinking like this is why wages and benefits are going downhill in this country, while employer fat cats get fatter. You'll notice Reverend Pastor and dear Miss Church Secretary would never stand for this, and don't. It seems M. LaMirande has defined you well. Organists are "working Americans" too, and their right to collective bargaining and decent wages is every bit as valid as in any other trade.   Off my soapbox...for now...   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:34:19 -0700   > Thinking like this is why wages and benefits are going downhill in this > country, while employer fat cats get fatter. You'll notice Reverend Pastor > and dear Miss Church Secretary would never stand for this, and don't. It > seems M. LaMirande has defined you well. Organists are "working Americans" > too, and their right to collective bargaining and decent wages is every bit > as valid as in any other trade.     Churches would have a hard time functioning without pastors, and without a secretary, many would be hopelessly lost. However, many churches do quite well without organists, at least to their satisfaction, and more join that growing number every year. The market for organists is declining. I don't think agitation it what's going to get the job done. Collective bargining raises an "us-against-them" mentality. Sort of like the Air Traffic Controllers against the government -- remember them?   Of course I don't advocate taking whatever the prospective employer wants to give -- but I think if we try to bully the churches, they'll just find a way around us. There's got to be another way.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:49:26 -0800   At 10:34 PM 11/4/98 -0700, Dennis Goward wrote: >Sort of like the Air Traffic Controllers against >the government -- remember them?   Oh, yeah, I remember that....a senile, incompetent president, with handlers from Big Business out to crush trade unionism controlling his every move. I remember that VERY well. It was the "Ray-Gun" era...which we miraculously survived. That idiot was flying on one wing when he was governor out here in the '60s!!   You don't like collective bargaining? There's a "better way"? You show me, and we'll both know. In nearly every case of "collaborative labor" situations between workers and major employers in this country, one thing happens eventually EVERY time...the workers get screwed. AT&T...AT&SF Railway...Kodak...Eastern Airlines...Honeywell...Mariott...GM...Electromation...IBM...Digital...want more? I got more. They're matters of public record.   I think organists are being trampled upon by their employers in a LOT of cases, and it won't stop until they push back, and get the congregants on THEIR side. If the congregants are such that they don't want music from a qualified, educated musician, well...that's their loss, and, as has been seen, will eventually undermine the church's membership. People's livlihoods, as well as the performance of good music, shouldn't be subjected to such whims and fancies of a short-sighted few would-be politicos.   Don't try dueling with me on labor issues. You are going to lose every time.   DeserTBoB