PipeChat Digest #581 - Friday, November 6, 1998
 
RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
nix on die politiken
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized?
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized?
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by <PipeLuvr@aol.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized?
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
 


(back) Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:15:18 -0500   Dear List Organizers:   I would like to openly address the managers of this list asking them to please take some sort of disciplanary action against Mr. Bob Scarbourough's less than friendly attitude.   There is a difference between expressing free speech and personally insulting people whose opinions are different than his. Furthermore, it is my understanding that the mission of this chat group is for the "friendly" exchange of ideas related to our profession and interest. Mr. Scarbourough has demonstrated neither.   I personally enjoy the contributions of others and, when appropriate, try to contribute to this effort myself. Fortunately, most of the members are friendly and quite generous with there advice.   However, none of us desires or needs to have our opinions smeared by a person with this type of personality. The last statement which is enclosed with this letter even belittles my work as an attorney.   I am a respected organist and member of the legal community that assist people against the government with tax difficulties. In many instances I do not charge or charge people far below usual rates. I work with churches to help with charitable donations etc. I have never met Mr. Scarbourough, never talked with him, have never discussed my work with him, and have never had a dealing of any sort with him. However, he chooses to throw unwarranted insults at me.   I will no longer contribute to this chat as long as Mr. Scarbourough is a member that chooses to exhibit this sort of behavior. Please do something aboout it now or I will permanently resign from this chat.   Dr. Charles E. Brown   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Bob Scarborough > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 5:00 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. > > > At 04:25 PM 11/5/98 -0500, Charles Brown wrote: > >Dear Bob: > > > >As to my "rather pointy nose" being in the thin air of academia far too > >long....I am, in addition to my musical duties, an attorney<snip> > > Ah..an attorney! Well, there we go! > > DeserTBoB > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: nix on die politiken From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:37:22 -0500   Gentlemen, Could we please leave the mud-slinging and smearing to the guys in Washington? Pipe Chat is supposed to be an organ-friendly outlet. Thank you.      
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:53:49 EST   Dear List Members,   I must apologize for festering this feud regarding this strain. I believe that I started this flack with the tongue-in-cheek suggestion that if WE as organists are so abused and underpaid that we should collectively strike. I never intended for this to become as vitral as it has, but merely to poke fun at ourselves and at our churches; as well as, to make a point.   The POINT is: Churches need to be made aware of our sacrifices of time, effort, and money. The AGO does an excellent job by promoting and producing seminars, educational material, and dialogue. However, it is up to each of us to further educate our parishioners, clergy, and worship committees. It has been my experience that in most churches where I have served, present one excluded, that music is regarded as a nice luxury but one not worthy of much expenditure (as shown in the music budgets). In my humble opinion, music is just as important in the liturgy as the spoken word.   Again, I apologize and hope that we might all examine ourselves, our situations, and the plight of those in less fortunate situations and put our minds to work in order to improve our working conditions.   John A. Gambill, Jr. Organist/Choirmaster Oak Cliff Christian Church Dallas, Texas  
(back) Subject: Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized? From: JKVDP@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:57:40 EST   I'm curious, which pipe organ builders are union shops? Jerry in Seattle  
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:00:24 EST   In a message dated 11/5/98 11:19:40 AM Central Standard Time, dgoward@uswest.net writes:   << dgoward@uswest.net >> > >I would like to further add that referring for organist Martin Neary as >"Martin Dreary" is the highest form of unprofessional conduct that can be >practiced and one of the reasons why our profession has lost much of its >status in the classical music world.   Yes. Some would see this kind of conduct as more suited to the playground than the church. It would seem that some organists are more interested in a good "cat fight" then in serious service to the church.>>   I was the one who referred to Mr. Neary as "Dreary Neary" and I stand by my statement. I have not only had a run-in with him but I personally know many whom have worked with him and I echo their sentiments very politely. In view of his current predicament (being accused of embezzling from the Abbey) I don't think he commands much respect.   John Gambill Dallas, Texas  
(back) Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:14:33 -0500   John:   I hear what you are saying. However, while Dr. Neary was accused he was not convicted to the best of my knowledge. However, as professionals, we must be careful in conducting ourselves with the highest degree of professional decorum.   In my professional dealings, I have had runnings with other organist and attorneys. However, this may not be the place to air those differences. I personally try to accord others the professional respect that I ask of them.   Dr. Charles Brown     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > DRAWKNOB@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:00 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. > > > In a message dated 11/5/98 11:19:40 AM Central Standard Time, > dgoward@uswest.net writes: > > << dgoward@uswest.net >> > > > >I would like to further add that referring for organist Martin Neary as > >"Martin Dreary" is the highest form of unprofessional conduct that can be > >practiced and one of the reasons why our profession has lost much of its > >status in the classical music world. > > Yes. Some would see this kind of conduct as more suited to the playground > than the church. It would seem that some organists are more > interested in a > good "cat fight" then in serious service to the church.>> > > I was the one who referred to Mr. Neary as "Dreary Neary" and I > stand by my > statement. > I have not only had a run-in with him but I personally know many whom have > worked with him and I echo their sentiments very politely. In view of his > current predicament (being accused of embezzling from the Abbey) > I don't think > he commands much respect. > > John Gambill > Dallas, Texas > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: RE: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:14:20 -0500   John:   You have absolutely no reason to apologize. Your points were valid and well taken. Unfortunately, this rather verbose and socially ignorant person by the name of Bob Scarborough used it as an excuse to stand on a soap-box and insult others.   Yes, we must work to educate congregations for the good of all..Happily, I am finding more young people are receptive to good chruch music programs. For many, there seems to be a thirst for quality. It has been my experience that more congregations are regarding music as a necessary and intregal part of worship.   Of course, each congregation has its own personality and politics but I feel that we may be starting to head in the right direction. As I stated earlier, many churches were caught by surprise by the lack of qualified music directors that occured and many churches are admitting to the fact that it happened by its own hand.   The AGO does offer a great deal of good material and it is up to us to make that material available to congregations.   Dr. Charles Brown       > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > DRAWKNOB@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 6:54 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. > > > Dear List Members, > > I must apologize for festering this feud regarding this strain. I believe > that I started this flack with the tongue-in-cheek suggestion > that if WE as > organists are so abused and underpaid that we should collectively > strike. I > never intended for this to become as vitral as it has, but merely > to poke fun > at ourselves and at our churches; as well as, to make a point. > > The POINT is: Churches need to be made aware of our sacrifices of time, > effort, and money. The AGO does an excellent job by promoting > and producing > seminars, educational material, and dialogue. However, it is up > to each of us > to further educate our parishioners, clergy, and worship > committees. It has > been my experience that in most churches where I have served, present one > excluded, that music is regarded as a nice luxury but one not > worthy of much > expenditure (as shown in the music budgets). In my humble > opinion, music is > just as important in the liturgy as the spoken word. > > Again, I apologize and hope that we might all examine ourselves, our > situations, and the plight of those in less fortunate situations > and put our > minds to work in order to improve our working conditions. > > John A. Gambill, Jr. > Organist/Choirmaster > Oak Cliff Christian Church > Dallas, Texas > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:06:38 -0800   At 06:53 PM 11/5/98 EST, DRAWKNOB@aol.com wrote: >Dear List Members, > >I must apologize for festering this feud regarding this strain. I believe >that I started this flack with the tongue-in-cheek suggestion that if WE as >organists are so abused and underpaid that we should collectively strike. I >never intended for this to become as vitral as it has, but merely to poke fun >at ourselves and at our churches; as well as, to make a point.<snip>   Ah...here's the most sensible outcome of this whole thread so far! Thank you, John. It is good counsel!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized? From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:39:06 -0800   At 06:57 PM 11/5/98 EST, JKVDP@aol.com wrote: >I'm curious, which pipe organ builders are union shops?   That's a good question! Aeolian-Skinner was a union shop, but I don't think Moller was. Hook & Hastings was a union shop also, I seem to remember having read. Wurlitzer was most definately a union shop as was Kilgen, as I think Kimball was, too. I've no info about Holtkamp, Wicks, or any builders extant.   With the organ industry turning into almost a "cottage industry" in the US, I'm sure the ratio of organized to non has decreased perceptibly. Smaller businesses and "mom and pop" outfits haven't the profit base available for workers to go after good wages and benefits, and many labor laws are slanted to the side of the employer. Most builders would, however, come under the jurisdiction of the National Labor Relations Act, since they engage in interstate commerce once they do an installation out of their home state.   DeserTBoB...aka "Burger King"   "We don't just fry 'em...we FLAME-BROIL 'em!"    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:39:10 -0800   At 07:00 PM 11/5/98 EST, DRAWKNOB@aol.com wrote:   >In view of his >current predicament (being accused of embezzling from the Abbey) I don't think >he commands much respect.<snip>   There are usually two sides to every story, ladies and laddies! One should hear both before running interference for either!   DesertBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: PipeLuvr@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:47:51 EST   In a message dated 11/5/98 11:55:40 PM !!!First Boot!!!, DRAWKNOB@aol.com writes:   > I believe > that I started this flack with the tongue-in-cheek suggestion that if WE as > organists are so abused and underpaid that we should collectively strike.   The danger in striking is that the possibility exists that no one will really care - (Example: NBA lockout) and then what do you do? How about we get back to discussing issues where information exchange or sharing can possibly make a difference?   Thanks, Bob Acker    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:11:07 -0500 (EST)   Well, I must confess I did a semi-strike one Sunday morning when a minister (who made a big point of thanking everyone who did anything) thanked the choir director, the choir, the handbell players and their director, the children choir and their parent sponsors, for a very nice anthem (which I accompanied on the organ). Following the anthem was a hymn, but when he announced it I just sat there. He looked a little perplexed, and then turned and looked at me. I was sitting at the console, leaning against the wall behind me with my arms folded and a pleasant smile on my face. Suddenly it hit him! He turned to the congregation and apologized for not thanking me for my part in the anthem, and then proceeded to tell them how much he appreciated the organ music, yadda yadda yadda. He was very appreciative thereafter. He even came to me and privately apologized after the service. We were all very sad when he got the "Methodist transfer".   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative. -- Mordecai Siegal    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:45:21 -0600 (CST)   At 12:16 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Bob Scarborough wrote: >At 02:00 PM 11/5/98 -0500, bruce cornely wrote: >>Could someone please demonstrate what happens when you engage the >>"Unison Off" stop? ;=) > >Uh....that's easy! Your unison flies off somewhere........right?   Though if you're not careful you can get "Great (or Swell) Unison Separation" Anxiety Sydrome, a well-known affliction of organists, known sometimes even to lead to "General Cancel" :-)   John.    
(back) Subject: Re: Unions - Are Pipe builders unionized? From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:25:22 -0600 (CST)   At 06:57 PM 11/5/98 EST, Jerry wrote:   >I'm curious, which pipe organ builders are union shops?   In the United States there are currently no union shops among pipe organ builders. There used to be a number, of which M=F6ller was the last= surviving one. In other countries, such as Britain, quite a high proportion of organ builders are union shops.   John.=20    
(back) Subject: Re: Part-Time Position, Salaries, etc. From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:16:37 -0800   At 09:45 PM 11/5/98 -0600, John L. Speller wrote:   >Though if you're not careful you can get "Great (or Swell) Unison >Separation" Anxiety Sydrome, a well-known affliction of organists, known >sometimes even to lead to "General Cancel" :-) <snip>   Do they treat that with Prozac and Buspar, also? I must consult with my band of head shrinkers....heheh! They're due to be "coming to take me away, ha ha, he he!"   DeserTBoB