PipeChat Digest #596 - Tuesday, November 17, 1998
 
Re: Ivory keys
  by <MWORGLBAU@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #595 - 11/17/98
  by "gregory@mke.earthreach.com" <gregory@mke.earthreach.com>
Re: Ivories
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Ivories
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: electronic practice organ
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Ivory keys
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #595 - 11/17/98
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: electronic practice organ
  by "Adam and Christine Levin" <levins@westnet.com>
Re: Ivories
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Ivories
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
New CD
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Naji Hakim
  by "Jim Swist" <jswist@quickturn.com>
Re: New CD
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: New CD
  by "Jim Swist" <jswist@quickturn.com>
Re: Ivories, cleaning thereof
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: Ivories
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@MediaOne.net>
Re: Naji Hakim
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: New CD
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Organist's Mental State, was  Ivories
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re:Assistant Organists
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
"Cavaille-Coll" at La Trinite in Paris
  by "Bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Cleaning ivories
  by "Richard F. Weber" <rweber@Aero.net>
Re: Ivories
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Re: "Cavaille-Coll" at La Trinite in Paris
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Ivory keys From: MWORGLBAU@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 05:14:42 EST   Dear Robert and list,   "Can someone suggest the best solution for cleaning ivory keys?"   First off, the humour on the subject has been amusing ;-).   To hopefully give a straight, and complete answer, I offer the following.   In a pinch you can clean the ivory keys with a damp cloth or paper towel and water. Use as little water as possible. Ivory is a porous material, like a sponge. If you use too much water, it will be absorbed into the capillaries of the ivory and stay there until it is evaporated. In the mean time it will interact with the glue that holds the ivories down, and they could come loose. The trick is to use as little water as possible.   What we normally clean ivory keys with is denatured alcohol. It has a better cleaning ability than water, and will evaporate faster, and does not interact with the glue. I carry a bottle with me during service work to clean keys. If the keys are really bad, see below.   Another listmember wrote: "I don't think ivories can really be cleaned so they are white again. The oils in your hand causes the yellowing"   Yes, the keys can be cleaned till their "bone" white. And you are absolutely wrong. The keys yellow due to a chemical reaction within the ivory itself, not from the oils in your hands. This process can be arrested, or even to a small degree reversed by exposing the keys to light. The ivory keys on consoles that remain open all the time will always be whiter than those whose tops are kept closed except when in use. Bones that are in the desert are white not from the heat or lack of moisture, but from the exposure to sunlight.   If the key are really dirty or yellowed, and they need to be restored, they will need to be removed from the key frame. They first can be lightly cleaned with water, and wiped dry. Next they are cleaned with a straight bleach solution. Don't soak the entire key in bleach, but get the ivory good and wet. The wetting process may need to be repeated several times. The bleach will not interact with the glue. You can help the process by simultaneously exposing the keys to bright sunlight. I have a piano technician friend that also has had success using fresh lemon juice and sunlight to whiten keys. After the bleaching process, wipe the keys dry, and then clean off the key with denatured alcohol. Sometime you will be left with some small stains (that are not yellowing of the keys) or raised graining. These can be removed or flatten out by sanding lightly with 400 or 600 wet/dry sandpaper (the black sandpaper). Be very careful to go easy. After the sanding process you will need to re-clean the key with the alcohol. The final process is buffing the keys. You will need a benchtop buffer, a white airway buffing wheel, and some white rouge. Be careful not to press too hard, or spend too much time in one spot, as to can scorch the ivory, and turn it brown. If you do, you'll have to sand the burned area off, and re-polish. If done well, the keys should look almost new, and have a nice shine to them.   It was interesting that this subject came up when it did. We are in the process of doing exactly this. Our shop is doing a rebuild of a 4 manual console, turning it into a 5 manual. Instead of all new keyboards, since the original 4 were in good shape and the organist liked the "feel" of them, we were able to secure a 5th manual of the same period and manufacture (Casavant around 1930), from a colleague in Ontario Canada. We received it just last week (it took 30 days to get it to clear customs because of a foul-up on the paperwork at the border). It was quite dirty, and musty smelling, with stains on the ivories. Obviously it was stored in a barn or basement. After following the above procedure, they are turning out to look quite wonderful, and everyone is quite pleased.   I hope that this answers your questions, and helps.     Michael R. Williamson Williamson-Warne & Associates Hollywood Ca.    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #595 - 11/17/98 From: "gregory@mke.earthreach.com" <gregory@mke.earthreach.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 06:24:24 -0600   I have heard that the ivory on tracker instruments yellows more quickly because it takes more energy to push down the keys....therefore more sweat....therefore more yellow!   T. Gregory   Or....do the keys yellow more quickly because the organists on trackers seem to be more "moo-dy". (sorry....could not resist....I know it was "baa-d"....I did not mean to pull the wool over your eyes.  
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:42:52 -0600 (CST)   At 02:09 AM 11/17/98 -0500, Bruce Cornely wrote:   >this is more hearsay... however, I've heard that toothpaste, very >carefully applied is ideal for ivories. Are they dirty, or simply >aged. I don't mind yellowed keys, sorta makes the instrument look >properly aged!   The best thing for cleaning keys is -- as another poster suggested -- simply a damp cloth. Damp, not wet -- you don't want to warp the keys. The other things that sometimes happens to ivory keys are that they yellow and that they need polishing. Toothpaste might actually be of some value for the polishing process, although it would be very important to avoid getting any down between the keys and in any case it should be very sparingly used. After all, ivory is actually a kind of tooth, isn't it? For yellow ivories, probably the best thing is simply to leave the console open, since the sunlight bleaches them. Occasionally the ivories will develop a mottled brownish appearance; this is because of the glue showing through and there is nothing that can be done about it.   John.    
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:15:05 -0500 (EST)     >Uh Oh! Are we going to segue into the > "Ebony" thread now?!? Yikes! Now we're getting into the DARK and sometimes unnatural side of things!!! That's flat out scary....   MMMMWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHA   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog. -- Franklin P. Jones    
(back) Subject: Re: electronic practice organ From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:25:03 -0500 (EST)   Good grief! This machine has more baubles than Aunt Sally on Friday night!! I think it's gone "just a bit" beyond a "practice" machine. Perhaps it's time to change, if not the price, at least the name!   >Adding keyboards is a nothingness. If a three, > four, five, or six manual is what is wanted, > that isn't much in the way of cost. Now that's what I call a practice machine. ;-)   >There seems to be strong interest in some >type of practice instrument. There seems to be enough "stuff" available to keep a person distracted from practicing for several years... I think the "practice" concept might need to be revisited.   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog. -- Franklin P. Jones    
(back) Subject: Re: Ivory keys From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:29:11 -0500 (EST)   Thank you Michael. That was a very interesting treatise on cleaning and caring for ivory. ...but not funny at all. yuk yuk   ....still enjoying my "ventil" pinups!!   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog. -- Franklin P. Jones    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #595 - 11/17/98 From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:41:14 -0500 (EST)     >I have heard that the ivory on tracker > instruments yellows more quickly because it > takes more energy to push down the > keys....therefore more sweat....therefore more > yellow! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...   Great one, Tom!! Especially since most trackers have wooden keys.... so it's actually a moooooot point. hehehe   Since not all tracker-backers are as jovial as moi, you might wanna go "nomail" for a day or two to avoid cyberbombs!!!   Cheerios and pimps (oops, Freud, call you office), I mean PIPS ;-)   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog. -- Franklin P. Jones    
(back) Subject: Re: electronic practice organ From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:47:45 -0500 (EST)   On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 KriderSM@aol.com wrote: > While it is true that the veolcity sensitive keyboards are useless for > the pipe organ segment of this, it is quite useful in dealing with the > MIDI output end of things. The combination machine/processor that is > being considered has 32 channels output. That's two banks of 16 > channels each. And, each is assignable. That is right on the edge of > the electronic keyboard world. Few have such a feature. And, it is > quite useful. My MIDI engine is set up with 8 banks.   Velocity sensitivity is a standard in today's MIDI keyboards. The most complex MIDI controller I've seen handles 16 MIDI channels at once. Any reasonable computer interface can handle hundreds of channels. A 61 key, velocity sensitive controller with two MIDI outs handling 16 channels each (one MIDI channel can handle 16 channels, period) should cost maybe $500.   > There are only two voice units that I know about that use more than 16 > channels. One is for organ voice and carries 4 banks. The other is an > orchestral box that carries 2. These are banks of MIDI, mind you: not > banks of voices. Voices, especially for something as simple as a > keyboard, are nothing.   I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. If I were to buy, for example, two of those Ahlborn-Galanti MIDI organ expansion boxes (around $2000 each I understand) and hook them up to a computer with one of the MOTU MIDI interfaces, each box could be on its own set of 16 MIDI channels, and that's under $5000.   > There are a number of references to polyphony. The idea of 32-note, or > even 64-note polyphony, which is the high end of the electrnoic > keyboards, is nothing. With a 16 equivalent rank processor, you are > talking 976 note polyphony if you don't add any extensions. With the > common 73-note range extension, you are looking at 1168 note polyphony.   I just bought a Soundblaster Live! card with a built-in EMU synth that has 256 voice polyphony. It cost me $80.   Realistically, you don't need 1168 note polyphony. Let's remember that we're talking about a *practice* instrument, not a concert organ. Let's see: 16/16/16/8/8/8/4/4/4 in the pedal is 9 voices. 8/8/8/4/4/2/IV in the great is 10 voices. 8/8/8/4/4/2/III in the swell is 9 voices. That's 28 voices per note. Two pedal notes+10 manual notes=12 notes. That's at most 336 voice polyphony. Again, though, this is a practice instrument and doesn't need that extreme. My Kurzweil synth has 24 voice polyphony and 3 part multitimbral ability, meaning that a patch containing three voices has 8 note polyphony, but I *never* notice because the "voice-stealing" algorithm is very, very good. That synth costs about $1000 today (new they were $2000).   > Obviously, going to thirty-two equivalent ranks exactly doubles those > figures.   No it doesn't, because you don't have to play all the notes at once. On a piano, 64 voice polyphony is necessary because of the sustain pedal, but on an organ there is no sustain. You only need the polyphony to cover the number of notes you can *play* at a time, not to cover every pipe in the organ.   > Another aspect is couplers. No electronic keyboard that I have found > has such a thing. And, the processor at which we are looking affects > not only the "organ" stops, but the MIDI stops, as well. And, that > includes both inter and intra manual couplers.   That's what MIDI does, though -- it *couples* instruments together. With an inexpensive patchbay (under $200), I can have any one of my keyboards control any other separately (unison off) or at the same time.   > Likewise, the processor is full programmable as to MS and LS banks, > program number, channel, individual stop transposition, and a number of > other things right at the console. And, if you've ever had to deal with > some of those aspects of an electronic, you'd know that is quite an > advantage.   Today's MIDI controllers are affordable and do all this and more. And they don't cost $50,000.   > The idea of adding modulation wheels for MIDI processing has not been > considered at this point. However, there is the possibility that such > could be an option.   Ok, add $1.50 to the cost.   > The last aspect that seems to be something that is being missed is that > there is a full combination machine in this instrument. You will have > general and divisional pistons on multiple levels of memory, expression > shoes, crescendo, and a few other niceties. The electronics just don't > do that.   Sure they do -- my Alesis has one bank of mixes called the "user" bank which is fully programmable. I can set any sounds I want as part of the sound and then call it up with the touch of a button. Any combination of the sounds that I want is there at my fingertips.   > Yes, while it is being approached from the viewpoint of going mainly > into homes, this is a concert quality instrument.   This is the problem -- why spend ridiculous amounts of money on a concert quality instrument that'll never leave the house.   > Adding keyboards is a nothingness. If a three, four, five, or six > manual is what is wanted, that isn't much in the way of cost.   Absolutely. I dare say that a V/200 electronic instrument shouldn't cost more than $15,000.   > Is there interest in such an electronic practice organ? Please respond again > to <Larry@challengerltd.com>   Yes, as long as it is priced realistically, and that doesn't mean $50,000.   -Adam   Rutherford, NJ USA Free speech online! _/ http://westnet.com/~levins/ ________/ "You know," said Windle, <*> __________________________/ "It's a wonderful afterlife." -O /    
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:13:21 -0600 (CST)   At 08:15 AM 11/17/98 -0500, Bruce Cornely wrote: > >>Uh Oh! Are we going to segue into the >> "Ebony" thread now?!? >Yikes! Now we're getting into the DARK and sometimes unnatural side of >things!!! That's flat out scary....   Well, you see, you put a bunch of SHARP minded individuals like Bruce together on an e-mail list and these things come about in an almost ACCIDENTAL way ...   John    
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:33:55 -0800   At 08:15 AM 11/17/98 -0500, bruce cornely wrote: > >>Uh Oh! Are we going to segue into the >> "Ebony" thread now?!? >Yikes! Now we're getting into the DARK and sometimes unnatural side of >things!!! That's flat out scary.... > > MMMMWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHA   .....and people say I'M twisted....sheeesh!   hehehehe!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: New CD From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:53:15 -0500   I have just bought a new CD ( or, at least new to me), of Naji Hakim playing the Cavaille-Coll organ at La Sainte-Trinitie in Paris, where he is the titulaire.   It is really a superb recording both in its content and the actual sound. The programme is simply called "French Organ Music" on an EMI Classics Debut No. 5 72272 2.   It has on it: Franck: Chorale No. 3 Vierne: Carillon de Westminster and Etoile de Soir Langlais: Te Deum, Ave Maria, and Ave Maria Stella Messiaen: Dieu Parmi Nous and Priere apres la Communion Hakim: Canticum and Pange Lingua   If I still had a radio progamme to play it on, it would go on during the next one!   I fully recommend it!   Bob Conway       Architecture, in general, is frozen music. Fredrich von Schelling, 1775 1854        
(back) Subject: Naji Hakim From: Jim Swist <jswist@quickturn.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:04:55 -0500   It would appear that Naji Hakim is at Ste Trinite (sp?) in Paris.   I know at one point he was the titulaire at Sacre-Coeur.   I guess I'm not familiar with the pecking order among Paris churches but isn't this a step down? I know it was Olivier Messiaen's church so it obviously has something going for it, but Sacre-Coeur is probably Paris 2nd or 3rd most famous church. I've never heard of Ste Trinite outside of the Messiaen connection.  
(back) Subject: Re: New CD From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:03:21 -0700   >where he is >the titulaire. >   At the risk of sounding dumb, what exactly is a titulaire, and is the term only used in French-speaking regions?   Dennis Goward      
(back) Subject: Re: New CD From: Jim Swist <jswist@quickturn.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:18:20 -0500   Dennis Goward wrote: > At the risk of sounding dumb, what exactly is a titulaire, and is the term > only used in French-speaking regions? >   It's actually fairly recent - we had this discussion on PIPORG-L a while ago and seems that "titulaire" has only been fairly recently applied.   I suspect it's a combination of (1) needing to identify the principal organist amongst a plethora of assistants, scholars, and choir accompanists that seem to have sprung up in thiscentury, and (2) I know I'll get flamed for this but IMHO there is a lot more title-consciousness in Europe (ever seen their business cards?) and it's important for the "head" organist to be known as that.   An equivalent term exists in many European countries... I think about the best we do here is 'music director' or 'senior organist' or some such thing.  
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories, cleaning thereof From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:16:19 EST   Hi List----- Heres another slant on the ivory cleaning routine,,,,,Piano supply companies have a kit for ivory cleaning,,it has good directions, and from my experience does a very good job, and the kit is not expensive.... Also---in my experience---"old home" recipe's for cleaning just dont cut it... If you are serious about wanting whiter ivories,,,get a kit and follow the directions..   Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@MediaOne.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:19:04 -0500   Bob Scarborough wrote: > > At 08:15 AM 11/17/98 -0500, bruce cornely wrote: > > > >>Uh Oh! Are we going to segue into the > >> "Ebony" thread now?!? > >Yikes! Now we're getting into the DARK and sometimes unnatural side of > >things!!! That's flat out scary.... > > > > MMMMWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHA > > ....and people say I'M twisted....sheeesh! > > hehehehe! >   "Twisted"?? -NO! Bob is NOT twisted!       ....could "Certifiable" be the word that we're looking for here?   Helpfully, Stan   :) :) :)  
(back) Subject: Re: Naji Hakim From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:24:32 -0500   Jim and all those interested,   Naji Hakim was titulaire at Sacre-Coeur from 1985 to 1993, he then succeeded Olivier Messian at La Trinite.   and for Dennis, Titulaire is a French title given to organists in France, something like in the USA where you call them Ministers of Music, or some other fancy name for being Organist and Choirmaster, as they are in England and Canada.   Bob ...   At 12:04 PM 11/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >It would appear that Naji Hakim is at Ste Trinite (sp?) in Paris. > >I know at one point he was the titulaire at Sacre-Coeur. > >I guess I'm not familiar with the pecking order among Paris churches >but isn't this a step down? I know it was Olivier Messiaen's church >so it obviously has something going for it, but Sacre-Coeur is >probably Paris 2nd or 3rd most famous church. I've never heard of >Ste Trinite outside of the Messiaen connection. > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   Architecture, in general, is frozen music. Fredrich von Schelling, 1775 1854        
(back) Subject: Re: New CD From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:41:11 -0700     >I suspect it's a combination of (1) needing to identify the principal >organist amongst a plethora of assistants, scholars, and choir >accompanists   Assistant? What's an assistant? Is this another European thing? :-)     Dennis    
(back) Subject: Organist's Mental State, was Ivories From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:44:09 -0700     > >...could "Certifiable" be the word that we're looking for here? >     At one time I was discussing some possible changes to the organ, and I asked the tech, "Do you think I'm crazy to want this?"   His reply: "Of course -- you're an organist, aren't you?"   Dennis      
(back) Subject: Re:Assistant Organists From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:40:48 -0500   Dennis,   In a large cathedral there is usually at least one assistant organist, sometimes more than one. Imagine! - three services a day, recitals, choir traning, etc., - you would need to have some help!   Quite often the Assistant Organist is the organist when a big choral work is to be performed.   Bob ...     At 10:41 AM 11/17/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>I suspect it's a combination of (1) needing to identify the principal >>organist amongst a plethora of assistants, scholars, and choir >>accompanists > >Assistant? What's an assistant? Is this another European thing? :-) > > >Dennis > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   Architecture, in general, is frozen music. Fredrich von Schelling, 1775 1854        
(back) Subject: "Cavaille-Coll" at La Trinite in Paris From: Bud <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:45:10 -0800   I think it's something of a stretch to call the organ at La Trinite a Cavaille-Coll. It has been revised at least twice -- first while Guilmant was on tour in America ... he resigned when he returned to Paris and discovered what had been done; and again by Messiaen himself. I believe it was Messiaen who had the instrument "electrocuted" ... at any rate, the number of manuals was reduced from four to three, if I'm not mistaken. It now has an American-style console. A comparison of the original stoplist with the current one appeared somewhere, but I can't lay hands on it right now. Perhaps someone else can ...   Regards,   Bud Clark    
(back) Subject: Cleaning ivories From: "Richard F. Weber" <rweber@Aero.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:24:41 -0800   In the 19th century, the preferred method for cleaning ivories was to make a paste of lemon juice and salt. I find that using concentrated lemon juice works even better, as well as getting rid of the yellow.   Richard Weber    
(back) Subject: Re: Ivories From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:43:59 -0800   At 12:19 PM 11/17/98 -0500, Stanley Lowkis wrote:   >...could "Certifiable" be the word that we're looking for here?<snip>   Been there, done that...got the charts to prove it!   Happy Prozac day to you all,   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: "Cavaille-Coll" at La Trinite in Paris From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:05:41 -0500   Bud and others,   I am sure that you are right Bud, - in that there isn't much left of Cavaille-Coll's work in the organ at La Trinirie, - but that's what the CD says it is!   I think that there are a lot of his pipes still there, but they may sound rather differently to how they sounded in 1867 when it was built!   Bob ...     At 09:45 AM 11/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >I think it's something of a stretch to call the organ at La Trinite a >Cavaille-Coll. It has been revised at least twice -- first while >Guilmant was on tour in America ... he resigned when he returned to >Paris and discovered what had been done; and again by Messiaen himself. >I believe it was Messiaen who had the instrument "electrocuted" ... at >any rate, the number of manuals was reduced from four to three, if I'm >not mistaken. It now has an American-style console. A comparison of the >original stoplist with the current one appeared somewhere, but I can't >lay hands on it right now. Perhaps someone else can ... > >Regards, > >Bud Clark > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   Architecture, in general, is frozen music. Fredrich von Schelling, 1775 1854