PipeChat Digest #611 - Friday, November 27, 1998
 
Re: I've been offended AGAIN.
  by "Kevin Cartwright" <kevin1@alaweb.com>
National Shrine Thanksgiving and Advent I Music
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Advent I, Christ Church, Episcopal, Los Altos, CA
  by <WRansomeJr@aol.com>
Organists salary
  by "Greg McAusland" <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk>
Re: I've been offended AGAIN.
  by "Sean Haley" <newgershwin@hotmail.com>
Polite observation: re: tutoring organ students
  by "Greg McAusland" <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk>
AGO-Standards (1933)
  by "Aida van de Brake" <Celeste@cable.A2000.nl>
Re: Organists salary
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
Console Specs
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
RE: Organists salary
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Diaphones & JSB
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Organists salary
  by "Kevin Cartwright" <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Diaphones and JSB
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Organists salary
  by "MR SAND   LAWN" <KWQT65A@prodigy.com>
Re: Organists salary
  by "Kevin Cartwright" <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Organists salary
  by <ORGANUT@aol.com>
Re: Organists salary
  by "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@netins.net>
RE: Organists salary
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Bible and Organists
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Console Specs
  by <WRansomeJr@aol.com>
RE: Console Specs
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Organists salary
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Organists salary
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
RE: Console Specs
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: I've been offended AGAIN. From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:25:53 -0600   Thanks for the kind words. We need more nice, honest people in the organ world.   Kevin C. kevin1@alaweb.com      
(back) Subject: National Shrine Thanksgiving and Advent I Music From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:15:43 EST   The National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, Michigan Scott F. Foppiano Director of Music and Liturgical Coordinator     Thanksgiving Day Liturgy   Handbell Prelude: Thanksgiving Bells (arranged by Barbara Baltzer Kinyon) (Come Ye Thankful People Come, For the Beauty, We Gather Togerther)   Hymn: Come, Ye Thankful People, Come (St. George's Windsor)   Responsorial Psalm:   Gloria: from New Mass for Congregations by Carroll T. Andrews   Gospel Acclamation: Celtic Alleluia (Fintan O'Carroll)   Offertory Anthem: Sing To the Lord of Harvest (Healey Willan)   Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Great Amen and Agnus Dei: A Community Mass (Richard Proulx)   Communion Motet: Let All Things Now Living (arranged by Katherine K. Davis)   Recessional Hymn: Now Thank We All Our God (Nun Danket)   Organ Voluntary: Now Thank We All Our God (J.S. Bach, arranged Virgil Fox)       Advent I   Organ Volutary: Wachet Auf, ruft uns die stimme (J.S. Bach)   Processional Hymn: O Come, O Come Emmanuel (Veni Emmanuel)   Gloria: A New mass for Congregations by Carroll T. Andrews   Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 122 (Owen Alstott)   Gospel Acclamation: Alleluia (plainchant)   Offertory Antherm: People Look East (Eugene Butler)   Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Great Amen and Agnus Dei: A Community Mass (Richard Proulx)   Communion Motet: E'en So, Lord Jesus, Quickly Come (Paul Manz)   Recessional Hymn: Come, O Long Expected Jesus (Stuttgart)  
(back) Subject: Advent I, Christ Church, Episcopal, Los Altos, CA From: WRansomeJr@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:18:58 EST   Rite I   Prelude: Nun komm, der heiden heiland, Bach (18 Great, ornamented chorale)   Hymn in Procession: Come thou long expected Jesus   Kyrie and Sanctus: Willan setting   Sequence: Savior of the nations, come   Ottertory Anthem: Mercy and truth are met together, Ned Rorem   Communion Hymn: Comfort, comfort, ye my people   Hymn in Procession: Lo! he comes with clouds descending (Helmsley)   Voluntary: Jesu mine freude, Bach (Orgelbuchlein)  
(back) Subject: Organists salary From: Greg McAusland <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:39:33 -0000   Hi   I earn my living as an organist by combining a post at my local = crematorium with a church post. My salary is very modest, it's just = about enough to get me by. But my greatest satisfaction is knowing that = you are serving your community at perhaps the most distressing and = depressing points in people lives. I just know that God has given us = gifts and calls us to put them to good use. If you focus on that rather = than the renumeration side of things you realise that there is more to = life than gaining material goods. Of course one needs to earn enough to = pay the bills, mortgage etc. etc. but if have really put your faith in = Jesus Christ - you just know that GOD will provide! What excites me = even more is that because Jesus loves us so much, he will do all he can = for us so we progress even higher to serve his Kingdom.   So if you are depressed and unhappy at the level of your numeration or = the conditions of your present post, don't give up because if Christ has = called you to serve him, then you will surely be rewarded with a better = post at some future point in time!   I am not an evangelical, bible basher - just a middle-of-the-road Church = of England communicant. I had been sweating and slaving for six years = to scrape a living through organ playing, but it wasn't until I actually = gave my life to Jesus totally, that things changed and I realised that = God had called me to serve him in a special way.   Forget labor unions or unappreciative church committees, Jesus is your = one and only boss!!!!   Yours in Christ   Greg xxx  
(back) Subject: Re: I've been offended AGAIN. From: "Sean Haley" <newgershwin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:18:32 PST   >Kevin, >Follow your dream Son. Don't let anyone discourage you. Persevere >>is thewatchword. I wish there were more young people who shared your >enthusiasm. I am pullin for you, and wish you success. I believe >you can make it happen! > >Later, >Phil L. Hey Kevin (and list), Now here are some true words of wisdom! I have had similar words spoken to me on many occasions after being frustrated with an organic event that didn't go as planned. After spending more than 6 years of my life trying to get just a small pipe organ or even one rank of pipes to have (and I still don't have a thing) you get used to discouragement. But, I have had many terrific people from this list tell me time and time again to keep at it, and that one day things will work out. Sure it may not be tomorrow or next week but someday I know my list of goals will begin to be completed. It just takes a little patience, encouragement from others, and yes, FAITH. Hang in there, even though you are only a year or two younger than I, you still have a life time to get it done (something I tell myself regularly). Don't get too ambitious now, you'll need something to do when you're retired. Best wishes to you and to other young people in the organ world who need a little support and encouragement. _____ | | Sean M. Haley / NWOrganer | | Organist,Pianist,Composer,Piano/Organ Tech. () ()..Co-Creator of Theatreorgans-L.......() () .........<newgershwin@hotmail.com............| | .............................................|___|     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Polite observation: re: tutoring organ students From: Greg McAusland <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:26:02 -0000   I feel sorry for any organist that has to be subjected to such draconian = rules as at St. Lawrence, KS.   Of course any house of God must encourage a prayerful atmosphere, but = surely there must be provision for an organist to have the freedom of = practising his/her art and bring others to develop their skills without = having to abide by harsh limitations.   Surely two or three hours of unbridled tutoring of future potential = organists that will serve the church and Christ is good investment for = any church. Placing ridiculous restrictions will only quicken the = demise of the organist, the organ and the desire for quality music = making in our churches, in my view.   People in high places often forget that music is a great way for mission = into our community and bringing newcomers. =20   Perhaps I am in the minority, but after the Sunday morning service, = after the Voluntary (usually amidst loud chatter), I let children try = out the organ. Often with cataclysmic results (i.e noisy) but it is = important for people to see the organ as being an approachable = instrument - not something just in the domain of experienced = practicioners. Any well-made organ should be able to withstand the = rigours of experimental youngsters. I remember as a curious 11year old = interested to know what different noises the stops could make - and I've = been hooked since!!!   Lets bring new talent into the churches!   Yours in Christ,     Greg xxx  
(back) Subject: AGO-Standards (1933) From: Aida van de Brake <Celeste@cable.A2000.nl> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:53:56 +0100   Guess you missed this one:     I wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > I've been reading Barnes' 'The Contemporary American Organ'. Well, > at least the part about the AGO-Report of 1933. This because I'm > planning to have a 3-manual study organ built, and I don't intend > to leave the location of the shoes to the builders, risking a > totally 'customized' result. > > As Barnes presents it, the standard for expression and cresc. shoe > placement is: 'Swell shoe to be located directly in front of the > E-F gap. Choir shoe to left of Swell. Solo to right of Swell. > Crescendo shoe to the right of all others, slightly raised. > Great to displace Solo in three-manual organs. To the left of > Choir in four-manual organs.' > > Can anyone tell me how 'standard' these AGO-Standards are nowadays? > I mean: on existing organs in the States, in Britain, in Europe? > > Thanks, > > Aida van de Brake, > Zaandam, Holland. >     A reply on one of the lists:   Someone wrote: > > Aida van de Brake is thinking of commissioning a 3-manual house organ, > mistrusts leaving details of console dimensions to the builders and has > been reading Barnes for erudition. > > I'll leave to others to consider the assumption that all divisions are > to be enclosed. However, I would have thought that William H. Barnes > should be regarded as an authority on about an equal footing to his > English loud-mouthed and opinionated predecessor Dr Dionysious > Lardner. > > My own favourite comment, from the first edition of his great work, is > the caption to a pair of photographs (Plate IX): > > "Console of St Gervais, Paris. They began like this in Europe. But we > in America were not quite so ancient and our first organs were more > easily controlled. This old console in St Gervais, Paris, had thirty- > seven registers and stops that pulled out by the yard, it would seem. > The pedal clavier was nothing to brag about. Wonder what the tone > was like?" > > Now there's scholarship for you! > > Best wishes, > > -Someone.  
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:28:05 -0800   At 08:39 PM 11/26/98 -0000, Greg McAusland wrote:   >Forget labor unions or unappreciative church committees, Jesus is your one and only boss!!!!   When Jesus starts signing paychecks, I'll buy into this.....hehehe!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Console Specs From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:58:52 -0700   In a recent discussion on console specs, one learned member of one of the lists saw fit to make some rather uncomplementary statements about Dr. William Barnes. In reviewing the revised document of the console specifications from 1961, it appears that Dr. Barnes served on the guild committee on the Standardization of the Console with such notables as Alexander Schreiner and George Markey. In fact, Dr. Barnes was the chairman of that group. Perhaps our learned friend feels the guild erred in this assignment, or is it possible that Dr. Barnes was held in higher esteem by his peers in the '60's than now?   Dennis Goward Business: http://www.desertsoft.net Personal: http://www.desertsoft.net/personal    
(back) Subject: RE: Organists salary From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:25:13 -0700   > Forget labor unions or unappreciative church committees, Jesus is > your one and only boss!!!!   Yes! Well said, and true to the last word. Unfortunately, I fear that most of our collegues in the church music world don't have the kind of relationship with a savior that would lead to such a belief.   I'd like to invite you to join in with a group that has similar view to yours -- Organ chat. Check out the web page at http://www.desertsoft.net/organchat.   Dennis Goward Minister of Music St. Paul Lutheran Church Phoenix, AZ    
(back) Subject: Diaphones & JSB From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:03:16 EST   +++++++++++++++   Richard writes:   <Snip>Secondly, JSB probably wouldn't have had any 32 foots at all, so it is not   stylistic to use them for his works (but then......not everybody listens to   style!!!).<Snip>       Agreed! However, IMHO, IF JSB would have had those powerful, instant-speaking pipes at his disposal, his music would have even more precise.   No disrespect for style and using the instruments at the composer's disposal, so I will simply state that I appreciate hearing those organists who adapt the composer's works to the more modern instruments.   WurliStan  
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:00:28 -0600   Bob Scarborough wrote: > > At 08:39 PM 11/26/98 -0000, Greg McAusland wrote: > > >Forget labor unions or unappreciative church committees, Jesus is your one > and only boss!!!! > > When Jesus starts signing paychecks, I'll buy into this.....hehehe!   To add to this, my (organ) teacher told me not to trust any church if you're not the established, full time organist. I'm starting to wonder about that. My church owes me for two weeks, and still no check...   Kevin C. kevin1@alaweb.com        
(back) Subject: Diaphones and JSB From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:45:03 -0500   As regards to performing classic works on modern instruments. The organist at the now-closed Paramount Music Palace in Indianapolis, Indiana, did a fantastic performance of Widor's Tocatta/ 5th Symphony on the Paramounts' 4/42 Wurli. Trems off (naturally), immaculate fingering and technique, and of course, 16's in a chest-pounding pedal. Adapting such music to such a sacreligious (sp.?) instrument as theatre organ, only proves in can be done in the right hands. Rick    
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: KWQT65A@prodigy.com (MR SAND LAWN) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:44:23, -0500   Sorry to hear that you folks are having problems with salaries, getting paid, etc. Just remember "the squeaky wheel" gets oiled. Luckily I serve a church that makes music a big priority. Three musicians on staff for a congregation of 150. I have a budget that will allow me do hire 15 musicians for the MESSIAH next month, plus additional musicians for the "Lessons and Carols" service and the Christmas Eve service.   Sand Lawn  
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:01:54 -0600   MR SAND LAWN wrote: > > Sorry to hear that you folks are having problems with salaries, > getting paid, etc. Just remember "the squeaky wheel" gets oiled. > Luckily I serve a church that makes music a big priority. Three > musicians on staff for a congregation of 150. I have a budget that > will allow me do hire 15 musicians for the MESSIAH next month, plus > additional musicians for the "Lessons and Carols" service and the > Christmas Eve service.   On top of not getting payed, I had the horror of them telling me the pianist was going to do the introductions for all the hymns last Sunday. I nearly fell off the organ bench when I heard a simple chord on the piano, and the director held up his hands to begin after the chord had faded past the point of no longer being heard. So, it continued for the rest of the service. I was M A D !   Anyway,   krc      
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: ORGANUT@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:48:21 EST   Sand lawn,   Always keep in mind that sometimes the squaky wheel gets REPLACED!   Later, Phil L.  
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@netins.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:58:32 -0600       Kevin Cartwright wrote:   > > To add to this, my (organ) teacher told me not to trust any church if > you're not the established, full time organist. I'm starting to wonder > about that. My church owes me for two weeks, and still no check...   I might get paid on the 15th of the month or the 15th day of the next month. One month I got paid twice. Last year the church was $45,000 behind at the end of the year and we had our customary "We need money" sermons for six weeks. Then the senior minister showed up at the Ad board meeting and said the church bookkeeper hasn't balanced the checkbook for 11 months and we're $50,000 long. This bookkeeper hangs a shingle out downtown and does income tax. But we can't do anything about it at the church because "he's a member". /s/ Mark   > >    
(back) Subject: RE: Organists salary From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:17:08 -0700   Others have written:   >My church owes me for two weeks, and still no check... > > I might get paid on the 15th of the month or the 15th day of the > next month. One month I got paid twice.   I don't want to sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but there's something wrong in these situations, and not with the organist.   The bible that these churches should be following is full of references to treat employees fairly, pay wages in a timely manner according to agreements, and to respect those who give time and talent to the church. The bible also instructs that "a worker is worthy of his hire", which should mean to pay fairly. In these situations above, I'd say the church isn't living up to the words of the very Lord they claim to serve.   I have been fortunate to always serve in churches that keep their word. However, I have also always insisted on a written contract. Yes, I believe what I do is a ministry, but I also believe that if the church and I come to an agreement regarding wages, working conditions, etc, then I have a right both as an employee and as a minister in the church to expect that church to keep their end of the bargain -- that's just biblical.   Now, before anyone jumps up and says, "see, the church isn't honest", or anything similar to that, let me say that the church is made up of men and women who have proven to be fallible. Don't fault the church as a whole, or the Word of God, or God himself for the failings of people. The human race never has been a big one for being fair. Most try to do the right thing. Unfortunately, you don't hear a lot about them, because the organists who are being treated fairly and are satisfied don't need to tell anyone. I don't fault these collegues of ours for voicing their frustrations. Those churches need to be reminded to "rthb", or read the Holy Bible.   To add a little balance, let me say my church pays me the agreed wage on or before the due date, and asks me before they do something that will affect my job. I feel appreciated and respected. Am I so good, or are they? Nope, just a Christian church trying to do it God's way.   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Bible and Organists From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:28:29 -0500   Excellent explanation there Dennis. I will save your e-mail. Rick    
(back) Subject: Re: Console Specs From: WRansomeJr@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:53:31 EST   In a message dated 11/26/98 4:00:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, dgoward@uswest.net writes:   > Dr. Barnes was held in higher esteem by his peers in the '60's than now? >   Barnes' first interest was all round good church organs! I think he was very open minded for his era. In the book he was complimentary of tracker builders as well as the tried and true. If you build your church organ following his suggestions you will have a very servicable instrument! But it will be American Classic in style. What's wrong with that? I think the current trend to big french style trackers is great at universities, but a large Presbyterian Church in Memphis replaced a much rebuilt large Skinner with a big Bedient french style instrument with barker styled machines. I played both and the Skinner even in bad shape was better for that room. My opinion, I know, I know! But the French Horn would melt butter, and the Trombone, WOW. Well they did keep the triangle flute!  
(back) Subject: RE: Console Specs From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:42:18 -0700   >the current trend to big french style trackers   When I was starting to play for churches, the current trend was to build "neo-baroque" low-pressure screamers. Trackers were coming back into vogue. Interesting how trends change. French now, eh? Why, in my day you couldn't give us a Montre! Had to be a prinzipal!   Can't help but wonder how many beautiful sounding organs were scrapped to satisfy the trends that came and went. I remember playing an organ that wouldn't have cut it with the current French tracker craze, but oh, it had some lush sounds to it -- and it was a church organ, not a theatre organ.   Let me propose a radical thought -- to quote Mr. King, can't we all just get along? French Trackers, German Classics, American Classic, whatever -- how about "peaceful co-existance"? (another original phrase, right). I think it would be great to be able to enjoy music on an American Classic, then cross the street to hear the Bedient, and maybe go a few more blocks and listen to the Phelps Casavant (shoot me if you must -- I did like them). After all, does the art museum throw out all the Van Goghs when the Rembrant show comes to town?   What do you think?   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:43:35 -0500 (EST)     >To add to this, my (organ) teacher told me not > to trust any church if you're not the > established, full time organist. chuckle.... I was once told: If you stay in church music long enough, you'll se why Christians were thrown to the lions! ;-)   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     I had rather be a dog, and bay at the moon, Than such a Roman. -- William Shakespeare    
(back) Subject: Re: Organists salary From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:48:40 -0500 (EST)     >On top of not getting payed, I had the horror of > them telling me the pianist was going to do > the introductions for all the hymns last > Sunday. I nearly fell off the organ bench when >I heard a simple chord on the piano, and the > director held up his hands to begin after the > chord had faded past the point of no longer > being heard. So, it continued for the rest of > the service. I was M A D ! Kevin.... you play for a Methodist church, right? Well, don't get MAD! get EVEN!     >become and Episcopalian! ;-)   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     I had rather be a dog, and bay at the moon, Than such a Roman. -- William Shakespeare    
(back) Subject: RE: Console Specs From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:03:20 -0500 (EST)     >Let me propose a radical thought -- to quote > Mr. King, can't we all just get along? French > Trackers, German Classics, American > Classic, whatever -- how about "peaceful > co-existance"? (another original phrase, >right). I think it would be great to be able to > enjoy music on an American Classic, then > cross the street to hear the Bedient, and > maybe go a few more blocks and listen to the > Phelps Casavant (shoot me if you must -- I > did like them). After all, does the art museum > throw out all the Van Goghs when the > Rembrant show comes to town?   A worthy idea; however, usually when a new organ goes in an old one goes out! In addition, it quite a bit easier to move a Rembrant than a Skinner! But a good idea nevertheless. Being the wierd person what I am...... I would rather have several small organs of differing character than one huge mammoth that supposedly "encompassed" them all.   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     I had rather be a dog, and bay at the moon, Than such a Roman. -- William Shakespeare