PipeChat Digest #553 - Tuesday, October 13, 1998
Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
1st Plymouth Schoenstein Lied "The Builder's Perspective" (x-post)
  by "lchurst" <lchurst@binary.net>
1st Plymouth Schoenstein Lied dedication program (x-posted)
  by "lchurst" <lchurst@binary.net>
Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>
Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments
  by <Afreed0904@aol.com>
Has anyone any information on Otto van der Velden?
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
The REAL difference...
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instrument
  by "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersv.edu>
RE: The REAL difference between an electronic and a pipe organ
  by "Greg McAusland" <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk>
Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instrument
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>

(back) Subject: Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments From: Myosotis51@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:06:30 EDT   In a message dated 10/12/98 11:53:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kmoyer@marauder.millersv.edu writes:   << Worst of all to me are the attempts to fool people into thinking an electronic instrument is a pipe organ by erecting false pipe displays in front of the speakers or by maintaining old pipe displays and putting the speakers behind them. If we should have integrity of practice anywhere, it ought to be in the Church. >>   Karl,   IMHO, you're judging a bit harshly. My old church has the pipes from its former pipe organ still in place at the front of the church, but the space behind the pipes is now a large storage closet and a good place to put the amp for the "new organ," a 1958 Allen. (It was the "New Organ" then... and it still is!) The pipes remain for two reasons: one, that the congregation HATES change, and redoing the entire appearance of the front of the church would be a major one; and two, the money required to remove the pipes and close up the gaping hole this would create is more than they can afford. There was no attempt to pretend that the pipes are functional.   Vicki Ceruti  
(back) Subject: 1st Plymouth Schoenstein Lied "The Builder's Perspective" (x-post) From: "lchurst" <lchurst@binary.net> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:07:33 -0500   THE LIED ORGAN First-Plymouth Congregational Church   The Builder's Perspective   This organ, built for First-Plymouth Congregational Church, and for all of the people of Lincoln, is the Magnum Opus in our 121 years of organ building. In an interesting way, this instrument both reviews that history and looks forward to the next century. Its design draws upon the great traditions of Romantic organ building, a style which had taken hold at the time of our company's founding, and incorporates them into a modern framework expanding the tonal color and dynamic range of the pipe organ. The design is based on the idea that the organ can, and should, have the same kind of expressive range as the symphony orchestra -- subtle shadings of tonal color, dramatic contrasts of volume, beautifully shaped melodies and sharp accents -- attributes which give life to music. This is the fourth in a series of large instruments with which we have been charting new territory in the advancement of organ tone and mechanism.   There is a very practical reason for this emphasis on musical expressiveness. This is a church organ. Its primary role is accompanimental. It must support congregational singing, accompany the choir in a wide variety of service music and anthems, provide musical interludes to help set the mood for the service, give appropriate settings for weddings and funerals, and serve the Abendmusik series performances including large orchestral and choral works. Certainly a church organ must be able to play the solo repertoire, but it is called upon far more often to accompany others. Accompaniment is a subtle art. Tones must complement, not compete with the solo voices or instruments. Volume must be exactly right so as to support, but not cover. In many choral works, the proper sound behind the choir is that of the very powerful and dramatic full organ; however, it must be available at many different levels - not just loud! At First-Plymouth there is the additional special role of working with the Plymouth Brass. To be an effective partner, the organ must have adequate power and brass-wind stops of the appropriate timbre.   There is one other factor which makes a church organ different from others. It is heard week after week, year after year by the same people, sometimes for generations! An organ with a limited number of tones can get very tiresome indeed. To serve and inspire a congregation, a church organ should strive for maximum variety so that musical interest will be maintained.   The accompanimental role and permanence of the church organ are what led us to this particular design and also answers the question often asked: "Why is this instrument so large?" It is large not to be loud, but to be soft! A small organ can be very loud...and very boring. The size of the Lied Organ allowed us to provide many different types of tones at each volume level, with most of these being medium and soft. The organ has over 6,000 pipes divided into 110 ranks (or instruments), 85 voices or stops (individual tone colors) and 9 divisions (something like the sections of the orchestra). The pipes range from a length of over thirty-two feet to under a half-inch. This gives the organ a frequency range greater than that of the symphony orchestra. Many of the pipes are in expression boxes, which allow the organist to make them louder or softer by opening or closing louvers at the front of each box. This organ takes that concept a step further by providing auxiliary expression boxes located inside main expression boxes thereby doubling the intensity control. We place the loudest and softest voices of a division in these auxiliary boxes, thus extending dramatically both the softest and loudest ranges of volume. You'll hear this effect tonight from both the most powerful trumpets and the softest ethereal strings. One stop, the Celestial Vox Humana, is under triple expression. Its special expression box is located within the Celestial auxiliary box which speaks in turn into the main Solo box.   The organ has some other unusual expressive devices. The Variable Tremolo allows the player to change the speed of the Tremolo (or vibrato) of certain stops to imitate the natural change in vibrato speed that is part of the expressive technique of good singers and instrumentalists. The Pizzicato Bass stop is very valuable in accompaniments and orchestral transcriptions, for it allows the bass line to be slightly accented, producing clarity without resorting to loud or high pitched stops as is usually required on most organs. An entirely new device is found on this instrument - the Sforzando Coupler. This makes it possible to create the same kind of sudden, momentary accent that, for example, is produced in the orchestra by the trumpets playing only the down beat or concluding note of a phrase.   We are often asked why there are organ pipes at both the front and back of the sanctuary. There are several reasons. One is very practical. The church needed to have an organ during the time the main chancel organ was being constructed. Early installation of the gallery organ provided real pipe organ music for the congregation without any interruption. Given the scope of First-Plymouth's music program, this was a necessity not a luxury. The long-term reasons, however, are far more important. When the choir performs from the gallery, both in services and concerts, the gallery organ accompanies them. Some works require two organs for an antiphonal effect. Many pieces in the Romantic repertoire are enhanced by the use of an echo organ, with sounds coming from a heavenly location adding a touch of mystery to the performance. Fanfares of powerful trumpet sounds are greatly enhanced when they sound from opposite ends of the church. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, when a congregation sings as forcefully as do the people of First-Plymouth Church, it's helpful to have organ tone coming from the back of the building as well as the front in order to keep everybody together!   We proudly call this a modern, American organ with the hope that it will convey the essence of what is so common to most artistic expression in! this country. Unlike the sometimes insular traditions of other cultures, American artists freely borrow good ideas from wherever they may be found. In the world of Romantic organ building, the centers are France, Germany and England as well as America. This organ contains accents of all: these places: from France, Harmonic Flutes, the Cornet, and members of the Trumpet, Oboe and Clarinet families; from Germany, the Corno Flute and Posaune; from England, the Tubas and the Lieblich Gedeckt; and from perhaps the greatest American organ builder, E.M. Skinner, the Erzahler, Solo Gambas, English Horn, Flugel Horn, and French Horn. These sounds along with many others were selected because of their beauty of tone, not because of their country of origin. They are simply sounds that would blend with the tonal fabric of the organ and with each other. This is quite a different concept, of course, from devoting one keyboard to German sounds, another to French and so on. There was no attempt whatsoever to make an all-purpose organ by amalgamating the entire design concepts of several different traditions. The underlying ensembles of the instrument, particularly the principal choruses are not rooted in any old-world tradition. They are enhanced, immeasurably, however, by sounds that have captured our imagination in studies of organs around the world. Perhaps the most important part of the organ is the sanctuary itself. An organ, particularly a large one, depends entirely upon the building to be its sounding board. Without a good acoustic no organ can reach its full potential. We could not have asked for a more ideal acoustical environment. This room provides rich resonance, smooth frequency response and an even distribution of sound throughout. In other words, the room is perfect! Every sound of the organ is enhanced immeasurably by this beautiful surrounding. Music is heard with clarity. The full organ sound gains nobility and grandeur through the perfectly balanced resonance that adds warmth and beauty. No organ builder could ask for more.   What an honor it has been to build this instrument for First-Plymouth Congregational Church! For all of us at Schoenstein & Co. this is a dream come true. The opportunity to work in such an acoustical environment, to serve one of the nation's foremost church music programs, and to paint on a canvas large enough to explore fully our musical ideas comes along once in a lifetime. Most organ builders would "give their eye teeth" to do this. We feel gratified to have been selected and we only hope that our work has pleased the people of First-Plymouth and of Lincoln.   We would like to thank everyone at the church who has been so helpful to us. Your nationally known music director, Jack Levick, has been our partner in the design of this instrument from the very beginning. His support and enthusiasm have been constant. No project like this could happen without a strong and inspiring leader and you have one in Otis Young. His drive made this project happen and he has shown his deep personal interest in it from the outset. The entire church staff including Sue Buss, Pam Walter, Tammy Alvis, Gary Schuerman, Tom Meyer and Jerry Jones have been totally cooperative. The massive construction required for housing the organ was designed by Lynn Jones of Davis Design and carried out by Sampson Construction with church project manager Bill Ramsay. Many volunteers from the church including Bill Ramsay, Lou Hurst, John Reinert and Bill Smith have devoted countless hours to helping with the project and even working right along with our crew. Finally, of course, we must offer thanks to the Lied Foundation and to Ruth Marie Amen, along with all of the other donors, who, like the royal patrons of old, made this work of art possible.   Jack Bethards President, Schoenstein & Co.   ======================================================================== ====   Submitted for First-Plymouth Congregational Church, UCC and Abendmusik: Lincoln http://www.firstplymouth.org by Lou Hurst lchurst@binary.net    
(back) Subject: 1st Plymouth Schoenstein Lied dedication program (x-posted) From: "lchurst" <lchurst@binary.net> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:08:01 -0500   Abendmusik: Lincoln   with generous support from Ruth Marie Amen presents the LIED ORGAN DEDICATION RECITAL First-Plymouth Congregational Church Lincoln, Nebraska - October 11 & 12, 1998   THOMAS MURRAY, Organist   Sinfonia from Cantata #29 (Wir danken dir, Gott) Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)   Adagio in E Frank Bridge (1879-1941)   Fantasia in F Minor (K. 594) Wolfgang Amadeus Adagio Mozart Allegro (1756-1791) Adagio   Variations on a Burgundian Noel Andr=E9 Fleury (When, in the frosty season) (1903-1995) (Theme and seven variations)   Intermission   Litany Myron Roberts Homage to Perotin (Born 1912)   Nimrod (from Variations on an Original Theme, Edward Elgar opus 36) (1857-1934) (Transcribed by William H. Harris)   Overture to Ruy Blas (1839) Felix Mendelssohn- (Transcribed by Edwin H. Lemare) Bartholdy (1809-1847)   Hymn   Suite, opus 5 (1933) Maurice Durufl=E9 Prelude (1902-1986) Sicilienne Toccata   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D   Submitted for First-Plymouth Congregational Church, UCC and Abendmusik: Lincoln http://www.firstplymouth.org by Lou Hurst lchurst@binary.net    
(back) Subject: Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:20:28 EDT   Dear Karl, I have to agree with you about the misrepresentation in America but innovation is the undercurrent which drives our country. Someone will always inventa better mousetrap. I think the misrepresentation of the pipe organ goes back to what Americans envision as the pipe organ. An American entering a church looks at the sanctuary and sees pipes and assumes that that is an organ, and that the pipes he /she sees contribute to the organs resources. In some cases that is not true since some organ builders used facade pipes only to cover the actually functioning pipes and windchests. They did not play, As you note, some reed organs had facade pipes, in some cases made of wood dowels shaped to look like pipes. When it comes to costs, in some cases, that is the bottom line that decides the choice of pipe versus electronic. In the case unification to keep the costs down, some organ builders had used unification to keep the profits up.In some cases in thepast, the congregation did not know what was unified, and what was not. I don't believe that is the case today or it is not as frequent as in the past. So, some of the practices of the past by the pipe organ and reed organ builders, have come full turn to hurt all of the organ builders. Many have fallen by the wayside, some because of their practices, some as a family business lost interest, some because profits are no longer there, and some because of labor costs. (Moller) Some have turned to digital augmentation, some have refused to add digital voices but know that the organ committee's intentions could be to add voices later and due to the new keying systems, are relatively easy to add. Everyone knows that church contributions have dropped in all the mainline denominations including the Catholics. When a pastor is faced with dwindling funds, the music program is the first to suffer. (lack of heat will not be tolerated) There are less and less technicians/artists to maintain the pipe organ which has caused some organs to become unmitigated disasters not because it was not built well but poor maintenance. Builders should be required to appoint their choice of organ maintenance company to maintain their instrument. Don't the electronics people do that. This would solve one of their problems. Paul. P. Valtos  
(back) Subject: Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instruments From: Afreed0904@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:49:04 EDT     In a message dated 10/13/98 1:41:33 AM, jackjack@erols.com writes:   <<I am afraid will never be settled to every one's satisfaction. But in all fairness,I believe that both opinions need to be known. >>   Well, OK. You sure know more about it than I do. My bleeding body is dragged lifeless from the field.   I have the feeling that I stuck my nose into what I thought was a light conversation and found out too late that it was a lot more serious than I'd realized.   But I give! "Uncle!"   Alan Freed  
(back) Subject: Has anyone any information on Otto van der Velden? From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:22:50 -0400   Fellow listers,   I have an LP with Bach being played by Otto van der Velden, on an un-identified organ. It is one of a series of LPs that were issued by "Qualiton" in Canada, but from the music on the LPs, the recordings seem to have originated in Germany.   I would like any information on Otto van der Velden that anyone might come up with, for I have never heard of him before i found these recordings, but I would like to include these Bach recordings in a radio programme that I am producing on October 25th.   Thanks for any help that you may be able to give, Bob Conway   <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> http://www.greenford.demon.co.uk/bob/   Classics Director CFRC-FM 101.9 MHz Radio Queen's University Kingston, Ontario, K7L 3N6 CANADA   http://www.queensu.ca/cfrc    
(back) Subject: The REAL difference... From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:09:12 EDT   I appreciate all the responses and discussion developing from my theory.   I have a Pioneer Surround sound system in my home (Pioneer speakers in the front and British-made Solids in the rear) attached to a pair of Hsu subwoofers by an electronic crossover and a Yamaha preamp. The Hsu subs produce a flat line response down to 16 Hz. I can feel the 16' & 32' lows coming from those powerful speakers, yet the sound is nothing like the sensation I get when I attend a concert or recital when the powerful pedal stops are played. Hearing a Wurlitzer Diaphone CC in person is still, to me, a far superior sound than the same rank played through even the finest speakers. Another example, I experienced the fantastic George Wright Special, with its 32 finely tuned speakers, played in a sizeable auditorium. Later in the day, I heard a Wurlitzer pipe organ played in a similarly sized room. While the top end was nearly a draw, I could still sense a difference when the lower notes were played.   Given the differences in accoustics, room size, number of speakers, HVAC wind pressures, etc., I can always distinguish between a pipe organ and an electronic organ when the lower notes are played.   I want to figure out WHY there is a difference, and inquire if other organists with a more finely tuned ear for fine music can detect any differences.   I apologize for restarting the pipe vs. electronic war all over again. This was not my intent. Can other musicians detect these differences, and, if so, what causes the differences?   Musically,   Stan  
(back) Subject: Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instrument From: "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersv.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:59:08 -0400 (EDT)   In not wishing to "attack" a fellow list member, I have removed all references that identify the author of the following comment: > Reality is what one perceives to be true.   Our friendly list member posits a line of thinking based on this statement as he defends the integrity of electronic instruments as equal to pipe organs.   But the quoted statement simply is not true. A given thing is not necessarily true simply because we perceive it to be so. Can anyone claim that Clinton is America's greatest president simply because he percieves Clinton as such? Of course not. Can we really insist that the moon is made of cottage cheese simply because we perceive it as such? Of course not; besides, we all KNOW it's made of CREAM CHEESE. :-)   The purpose of my initial message yesterday was, indeed, to try to unravel this very sort of mindset among our little corner of today's society. Our narsissistic society dwells so greatly on the notion that if it seems thus-and-so to me, therefore it IS.   The central point of my message was NOT that we should avoid electronic instruments but rather that we should avoid presenting them as pipe organs. I did, indeed, brush on the question as to the price below which an electronic organ maybe the best choice, if an organ is still called for.   Things are NOT always what they seem to be in our individual perceptions. If only we could learn this anew. Judgements and decisions made on our perceptions lead to all sorts of unfortunate things, even to the loss of great amounts of money in scams. We do well, both for our own benefit and the benefit of the entire society, to avoid presenting one thing as though it were something else, including presenting (including by appearenaces) an electronic organ as though it were a pipe organ. Finally: at the moment the little tracker in my church's chapel is out for repairs. Did we replace it temporarily with an electronic? No, we use a piano--and a genuine piano, not an electronic fake for a piano. (And 'ya know, our liturgy and hymnody is doing just fine with that piano.) The point here: we're using a genuine instrument, just like we use a genuine silver chalice, solid oak pews and folding chairs and altar and real wine.   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA   > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: RE: The REAL difference between an electronic and a pipe organ From: "Greg McAusland" <gregorymca@pavilion.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:01:08 +0100   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDF6DB.D648AE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Hi Guys,   In answer to Karl Moyer's comments on this issue, as a professional = organist I am quite happy to play on a pipe or electronic instrument. = What matters to me is the challenge of interpreting a piece of music on = an organ and using the resources of that instrument to its limit with = the hope of getting a positive result!   It would be wonderful if the organist were able to play a perfectly = tuned, well built instrument with full tonal resources at every church = or venue - but wouldn't it be very boring?! In reality the organist = must use the resources he is given and if he is a true musician, words = as 'fake' or an 'imitation' are of little value because the organist = will use his experience and skills to the full to achieve a worthy = musical result, on pipe organs or otherwise.   I do find it tedious that this topic gets wheeled out from time to time. = People gave up long ago arguing over the merits of the acoustic guitar = vs. electric guitar. More and more people are benefitting from digital = piano and keyboards - resulting in a musical boon. Is it not time that = we organists should really just grow up and use this new technology = available to us. =20 Best wishes   Big Organpipe Greg (BOG)   ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDF6DB.D648AE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Guys,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>In answer to Karl Moyer's comments on this issue, as = a=20 professional organist I am quite happy to play on a pipe or electronic=20 instrument.&nbsp; What matters to me is the challenge of interpreting a = piece of=20 music on an organ and using the resources of that instrument to its = limit with=20 the hope of getting a positive result!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>It would be wonderful if the organist were able to = play a=20 perfectly tuned, well built instrument with full tonal resources at = every church=20 or venue - but wouldn't it be very boring?!&nbsp; In reality the = organist must=20 use the resources he is given and if he is a true musician, words as = 'fake' or=20 an 'imitation' are of little value because the organist will</FONT><FONT = size=3D2>=20 use his experience and skills to the full to achieve a worthy musical = result, on=20 pipe organs or otherwise.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I do find it tedious that this topic = gets=20 wheeled out from time to time.&nbsp; People gave up long ago arguing = over the=20 merits of the acoustic guitar vs. electric guitar.&nbsp; More and more = people=20 are benefitting from digital piano and keyboards - resulting in a = musical=20 boon.&nbsp; Is it not time that we organists should really just grow up = and use=20 this new technology available to us.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 = size=3D2>Best=20 wishes</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Big Organpipe Greg=20 (BOG)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDF6DB.D648AE00--    
(back) Subject: Re: The REAL difference between pipe & electronic instrument From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:08:52 EDT   Dear Karl, The point I was trying to make in my last e mail on pipe vs electronic is that if the pipe organ builders had not been guilty of some of the same frauds in the past, they would have more ground to stand on. The fact is that they have deluded organ committees when they sold 15 stop organs with 5 ranks, and not told the committee that the organ was unified. They have built organs with non functional pipe facades and not mentioned that in the quote. The pipe organ builders have been as guilty of deception as the toaster makers. I have never seen such bamboozling in all my time in industry as a sales engineer. Do that once in industry and you may as well close the doors of the plant. I've worked for both J&J (yup Band Aids, Birth Control Pills, Tape) and Carborundum (grinding wheels and sandpaper). If I took the initiative to do that, I would be fired. If my boss pulled that, he would be fired and the company would be sued,. If the company use that as a marketing strategy, the federal government would come after them.This is called misrepresentation. It is illegal no matter if you generate sound with pipes, tubes, transistors, cows or swine. You must tell the customer what you are selling them is the truth or go to jail. Better them than me. Maybe as we have truth in lending, we should have truth in organs??? Sincerely, Paul P. Valtos