PipeChat Digest #510 - Sunday, September 6, 1998
 
Re: Read and find out
  by <Trackerbkr@aol.com>
Re: Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company
  by "George & Bonny Jenista" <hiplain@flash.net>
Re: Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company
  by "krumet" <krumet@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Bethany U.M. Church
  by "Stephen Karr" <sfpkarr@hotmail.com>
U.M.Bethany proposal
  by "Robert Horton" <r-horton@nwu.edu>
Re: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by <HMPORG1@aol.com>
Re: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
New Organ for Bethany U. M. Church
  by "Bob Nickel" <rnickel@itol.com>
Bethany U. M. Choir
  by "Bob Nickel" <rnickel@itol.com>
RE: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
RE: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
RE: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: U.M.Bethany proposal
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Read and find out From: Trackerbkr@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 07:53:16 EDT   Jason Comet writes: << However, Several people (chairpersons) have said that If she is gone for more than a month, she should be replaced permenantly. What do you think? >> It is a violation of the AGO code of ethics for a member to discuss employment with an institution unless the incumbent musician has either resigned or been dismissed. So, do not discuss employment matters until it is clear that she will not return.   Laurie Ryan  
(back) Subject: Re: Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company From: George & Bonny Jenista <hiplain@flash.net> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 12:11:51 -0400   PipeChat wrote: > Subject: Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company > From: danbel@earthlink.net > Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 23:20:24 -0400 > > Tonight, word came from a well placed source who shall remain nameless, > that Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company in Vancouver, Washington will > not be in operation for much longer. > > There seems to have been an offer for the property that the > ownership took advantage of. > Sources say that one of the partners in the business will be buying the > Wurlitzer and it will reside in storage---at least for a while. >   Well, we in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex wouldn't mind having such an establishment here!! {grin}  
(back) Subject: Re: Uncle Milt's Pipe Organ Pizza Company From: "krumet" <krumet@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:33:31 -0400       ---------- > From: George & Bonny Jenista <hiplain@flash.net> > > Well, we in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex wouldn't mind having such an > establishment here!! {grin}   Trouble is that there has already been more than one of this type of establishment in the Dallas area---and because of lack of patronage, they both failed. Too bad-----     Clare  
(back) Subject: Re: Bethany U.M. Church From: "Stephen Karr" <sfpkarr@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 16:09:54 EDT   Hi, Jason, and all listers-   It sounds like a great plan, and a well-thought out stop list, but I wonder, isn't it a bit ambitious (especially for a 200 seat church)? It's all well and good if you have the funding, and have ok'd this with the church committees and all, but I think unless you have a Wagnerian opera chorus for a congregation, or you play uncharacteristically of a young organist (myself definitely included), the hymn singing will not exist because the organ drowns it out. I know I like to have a great bunch of stops on for the final verse of opening and closing hymns, and I try to gauge it for the congregation, but sometimes I overwhelm them, and they stop singing. That ain't good.   Also, you have two 32's listed that are not electronic. There will probably be some space constraints, and where are you going to put your clergy before the service if you fill their sacristy with pipes?   I may have it all wrong, but it's just my opinion.   Stephen Karr Organ Major, Mercer University Director of Music and Organist, Centenary UMC At College St. and Coleman Avenue, Macon, GA, USA   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: U.M.Bethany proposal From: Robert Horton <r-horton@nwu.edu> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:56:10 -0500   At 04:00 AM 9/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >I can't imagine an instrument as large as specified in a 200 seat church! I agree, the presented specification is well into the far side of overkill. Try looking into building a smaller instrument. The money you save could well be put towards contracting with one of the better builders of our day (Wolff and Jaeckel jump to mind) and getting a higher quality instrument. A 200-seat church is at the bottom end of APOBA's suggested range for a two manual organ. You're also blessed with good acoustics (3 sec.), so the last thing you want to do is overwhelm the building. I'd be all in favor of a large two manual instrument...APOBA recommends just 10-16 ranks, but let's splurge and go for a little over twenty. Here's a my quick suggestion, mostly leaning towards late 19th century American, but with a few added twists.   GREAT Quintaton 16' Principal 8' Bourdon 8' Octave 4' Flute 4' Twelfth 2 2/3' Fifteenth 2' Tromba 8'   SWELL (enclosed) Principal 8' Viola 8' Stopped Diapason 8' Octave 4' Chimney Flute 4' Octavin 2' Oboe 8' Trompette 8'   PEDAL Principal 16' Subbass 16' Octave 8' Violoncello 8' Flute 8' Choralbass 4' Trombone 16' Trumpet 8'   It's not huge, but that's not the idea. Going with a modest specification gives you the luxury of choosing a good (maybe even world-class) builder, meaning it'll sound better, look better, and last longer. You could also go for the high-end options like a suspended mechanical action, easy maintenance access, adequate and artistic scaling, etc...If you STILL think you need more, let's try adding another enclosed division like so.   CHOIR Principal 8' Gedackt 8' Flute Celeste 8' (TC) Gemshorn 4' Wood Flute 4' Piccolo 2' Cor Anglais 8' Tuba 8'   ....Yes, yes, yes, the big reed is in a box, not out in front like those Phallic Trumpets everyone seems to like nowadays. Just make sure you find a builder who can scale and voice it properly. Finally, if you're absolutely convinced that this isn't enough and they still want to spend more money on the organ...just tell them that the above is more than enough and that extra money should go into the music ministry!   Flame at will! Robert C. Horton Associate Minister of Music, St. Lawrence Catholic Campus Center Rm.970 McCollum Hall, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS 66045 http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/1028/   Q. "How many organists does it take to change a light bulb?" A. "Four...one to change the bulb and three to complain that the switching mechanism isn't sensitive enough."  
(back) Subject: Re: U.M.Bethany proposal From: Prestant16@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:54:25 EDT   I Have included my sugesstions and questions in this specification:     GREAT Quintaton 16' I have never had ANY use for a 16' Quintadena, or any quintadena at all, I would suggest putting a 16' Spitzflute (1-12 st'd or Haskell pipes) instead, it will give a nice warmth to the great without sounding a G chord when you are playing a C chord, why the Quintadena? Principal 8' Bourdon 8' I would have a nice 19th centurey style Chimney Flute, Octave 4' Flute 4' No need for a 4' Flute in a small room, if you reallr, REALLY need it, have a 4' Blockflute or Harmonic Flute Twelfth 2 2/3' Fine, but I would rather have a small III Mixture, with the 12th starting at the 2nd octave. Fifteenth 2' Tromba 8' Have a nice Clarinet in the Great, and the louder stops in the expressive swell, or you can have no reed at all, and use the great strictly for Hymn playing. SWELL (enclosed) Principal 8' I would use a good scale 8' Violin Diapason Viola 8' 8' Violin Celeste (slightly smaller than the Violin Diapason Stopped Diapason 8' I like a large Bourdon, because it would be expressive Octave 4' Replace the Octave and Chimney Flute with a 4' Spitzflute Chimney Flute 4' A II Sesquealtera would be better for use in the Grand Jeu, and for solo purposes Octavin 2' An Octavain in fine, as long as it is not too pricipal like in tone, a little more flute like is better. Oboe 8' Trompette 8' Harmonic From Middle C, large french style would be nice. PEDAL Principal 16' A small Violone would do for a 200 or 300 seat room, haskell pipes would save space if that were an issue, or the stop is completely optional. Subbass 16' ADDITION: the 16' Spitzflute can play in the pedal, even if it Mechanical Aciton Octave 8' Violoncello 8' I have not found much use for an 8' String in the pedal, and if there were a tight budget, I would rather have an octave. Flute 8' Choralbass 4' Trombone 16' Trumpet 8' It's not huge, but that's not the idea. Going with a modest specification gives you the luxury of choosing a good (maybe even world-class) builder, meaning it'll sound better, look better, and last longer. You could also go for the high-end options like a suspended mechanical action, easy maintenance access, adequate and artistic scaling, etc...If you STILL think you need more, let's try adding another enclosed division like so. CHOIR Unless the church is sort of wealthy, a choir division is not need, but if it is...... Principal 8' You would already have two 8' Principals in the manuls, so make the principal a Gemshorn Gedackt 8' 8' Hohl Flute or Harmonic wood flute, for coloring.... Flute Celeste 8' (TC) Gemshorn Unda Maris, you would have a celeste in the swell Gemshorn 4' Just a 4' Chimney Flute would be fine as the only 4' in the division Wood Flute 4' Piccolo 2' Piccolo is perfect, preferably harmonic? Cor Anglais 8' I would have an 8' Clarinet, and have a Trumpet in the great Tuba 8' >> Small room, the 2 trumpets would be quite enough         I am not trying to say that I am correct, please critisize my editing of the stoplist. I have tried to explain why some things are replaced, or removed. In a small room of 200 seats, a 12 stop organ would be fine if it were placed either in the front or back of the church. If the church has money to burn, then you can go larger. As you can see, the organ would have some French Infuance in it. I would like to add that even in small rooms there is always room for a Mixture stop. Since I have started working for an organbuilder, I have learned that a mixture is not for brightness, that is secondary, a mixture should be used for clarity. When congregations sing, they can drown out the organ, but throw on the mixture and the organ will sing over them, leading them in the hymn. A properly sclaed principal chorus and mixture should not be so shrilling that people will complain, but just enough to bring out the principal chorus.       Complaints, PLEASE......   -William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: U.M.Bethany proposal From: HMPORG1@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:01:00 EDT   Why consider a tracker? How about a good American builder such as Austin!! Dave Broome reeds (the best) and, surely, you must have a celeste or two!  
(back) Subject: Re: U.M.Bethany proposal From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:07:25 -0500 (CDT)   At 06:56 PM 9/5/98 -0500, Robert Horton wrote: >At 04:00 AM 9/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I can't imagine an instrument as large as specified in a 200 seat church! > I agree, the presented specification is well into the far side of >overkill. <snip> > A 200-seat church is at the bottom end of APOBA's suggested range for a >two manual organ. You're also blessed with good acoustics (3 sec.), so the >last thing you want to do is overwhelm the building.=20   Our own church, St. Mark's Episcopal in St. Louis, is living proof of this. It is a 200-seat church with perfect acoustics -- 3=BD seconds of reverberation. Loud sounds can be overwhelming -- when we have brass players we have to station them in the narthex with the doors shut, or else we would literally shatter people's eardrums. We have a 9-rank 1938 G. Donald Harrison Aeolian-Skinner 2 manual and pedal organ (op. 979) and it is if anything a little too loud for the building. Its stop list is:   GREAT   8' Principal 8' Spitzflute 4' Nachthorn   SWELL   8' Bourdon 4' Prestant III Rks. Plein Jeu (22-26-29) Tremolo   PEDAL   16' Bourdon 8' Flute (from Bourdon)   COUPLERS   Great to Pedal 8' Swell to Pedal 8' Swell to Pedal 4' Swell to Swell 16' Swell to Swell 4' Swell to Great 16' Swell to Great 8' Swell to Great 4' Great to Great 4'   This is a surprisingly versatile instrument, despite having no reed or string. The Spitzflute is to Flauto Dolce scale and thus produces something like muted string tone. The 4' Prestant + Plein Jeu makes quite a convincing solo noise in the bass approaching a Tierce en Taille registration, while when used in the treble with the 16' coupler they sound almost like a Cornet or even a small Trompette, despite containing no Tierce. Full Great is quite a massive sound, almost like a Cavaill=E9-Coll Montre. Full organ with all the couplers on is ear-splitting. The late Senator Emerson Richards in *The American Organist* for October 1948 described the instrument as "the biggest little organ in the world." My main complaint with this design is that it is very difficult to obtain echo effects as most of the beef is on the Swell. I think if I were designing a new instrument on these lines I would have the 4' Prestant on the Great, with the 4' Nachthorn on the Swell and a rather softer and lower-pitched Swell Mixture.   Alternatively, one might design something along the lines of the 1881 Willis nave organ at St. Paul's Cathedral in London, which produces a massive sound and has often been mistaken (even by organists) for the five-manual Willis grand organ. This has the following stops:   GREAT   8' Open Diapason 8' Lieblich Gedact 4' Principal 2' Fifteenth   SWELL=20   8' Open Diapason 4' Gemshorn 8' Cornopean   PEDAL   16' Bourdon   To have something approaching string tone it might be helpful to make the Swell 8' Open Diapason an 8' Violin Diapason or Geigen Principal. It might be nice also to have a soft 16' stop to give a really massive sound to the full swell -- e.g. a Swell 16' Contra Gamba (perhaps with a Haskell bass.) A 2.2/3' Twelfth on the Great would help to tie the chorus together, while it could also be used as a solo stop with the Open Diapason. Then a III Rk. Cornet Dolce might also be useful. We might thus end up with a small organ along the following lines:   GREAT   8' Open Diapason 8' Stopped Diapason 4' Principal 2.2/3' Twelfth 2' Fifteenth   SWELL   16' Contra Gamba 8' Violin Diapason 4' Gemshorn III Rks. Cornet Dolce (12-15-17) 8' Cornopean Tremulant =20   PEDAL=20   16' Bourdon=20   COUPLERS   Great to Pedal Swell to Pedal Swell to Great   Tracker action, of course :-) This is not unlike some of the instruments built around the end of the nineteenth century. Even with a thirteen-rank instrument like this, however, in a building like yours I would be worried that the Cornopean would be too much and might actually deafen people. Perhaps an Oboe would be safer.   John.      
(back) Subject: New Organ for Bethany U. M. Church From: Bob Nickel <rnickel@itol.com> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:17:16 -0500   I will send a stoplist of the new organ designed for the church. If you feel that it isn't suitable, than just make the changes and then send through the list so others can see.   Thank you, Jason Comet bombarde8@juno.com   >>>>>>>>>>>>>And this church only seats 200 people? How about the following:   Specification No. 1:   1. Mechanical Action 2. Two Manuals/Pedal 3. Stop list as follows:   Great: 8' Principal 8' Flute 4' Octave 2' Octave (from Mixture IV) IV Mixture   Swell: 8' Flute 8' Gamba 8' Celeste 4' Flute 2' Flute 8' Trumpet   Pedal: 16' Subbass 8' Flute 16' Fagot   Specification No. 2   1. Electronic organ (Ahlborn-Galanti, Baldwin, or Rodgers) 2. Four ranks of real windblown pipes (Principal 8, 4; Flute 8, 4) 3. Two manuals/Pedal   >>>>>>>>>>>>>Take the $$$ you will save on the HUGE installation you have planned, and pay a professional quartet to join your choir.   >>>>>>>>>>>>>You get to be Worship Chairperson, Organ Curator, Organist, Choir Director, Director of Music, Janitor ... and design a new organ for the sanctuary AND a new theatre organ for the basement dining room? Almost sounds too good to be true!!!    
(back) Subject: Bethany U. M. Choir From: Bob Nickel <rnickel@itol.com> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:19:50 -0500   The choir consists of 4 people. The organist, one tenor, and two sopranos. I have had at least 20 people come up to me and said, "I will come to choir in a heartbeat if he isn't in there." (CHoir rehearsal last 1 hour exactly. If it runs over, he flickers and plays witht the light until they are done.) "He knows his way home! He lives just around the corner!"   >>>>>>>>>>If the organist and her husband are really that troublesome, perhaps the pastor should be consulted in an effort to rectify the problems. If the pastor doesn't want to help, perhaps one of the following may be true:   1) He doesn't care. 2) He's afraid to intervene. 3) He doesn't see this as a problem. 4) He's pleased with the way things are going.      
(back) Subject: RE: U.M.Bethany proposal From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:32:27 -0700   I know this is pipechat and all, but all this talk of small tracker organs of limited specification for a small church seems to me to be a little one-sided.   I was in a small church the other day. The sanctuary was a small, low ceiling room that was obviously intended to be a fellowship hall someday down the road, when the church could afford to build a larger auditorium. Sitting in the back of the room was a small, beautiful tracker built especially for that room, as any good pipe organ would be.   So, when they finally build the new sanctuary, if ever, that organ will either be of no use to them, or will require extensive reworking to suit the new room. Why couldn't the smaller church use a decent electronic (there -- I said the E word) that could more easily be integrated into the larger room, and even enhanced with pipes in the new setting? I know one lister mentioned a Rodgers with Pipes, so maybe I'm not alone in this.   I love a good pipe organ like anyone else. But I would rather have a more versatle and complete organ, even if electronic, then hold out for pipes or nothing.   Just my opinion. It'll probably get me it trouble.   Dennis    
(back) Subject: RE: U.M.Bethany proposal From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:06:20 -0400 (EDT)     >I know this is pipechat and all, but all this talk > of small tracker organs of limited specification > for a small church seems to me to be a little > one-sided. I don't see why? There are limits -- it's called freedom under the law! When you accept the boundaries given and resolve to do your best within those boundaries the results can be spectacular; this applies to both the builder and the player.     >...when they finally build the new sanctuary, if > ever, that organ will either be of no use to > them, or will require extensive reworking to > suit the new room. Not so! Washington National Cathedral has a 6 stop Reuter which sounds wonderful in the Cathedral, even if it can't support thousands singing. Move a small organ into a larger room with good acoustics and it will bloom, and rise to the occasion with little or no reworking.   >Why couldn't the smaller church use a decent > electronic (there -- I said the E word) that > could more easily be integrated into the larger > room, and even enhanced with pipes in the > new setting? a) because there is no such thing!!! b) all that happens when you move an "E" into a larger room is you turn up the volume and/or add speakers and you have a louder sound which is LESS capable of actually properly filling the larger space than the small tracker with windblown pipes would be--simple physics! c) an "E" enhanced with pipes; you mean like putting candy sprinkles on doggie doo to make it taste better???? After all, finding pipes in an electronic organ-like machine is like finding bird-doo in a cuckoo clock! ;-)   Even if the church decided to get a larger organ for the new building, the tracker could be sold to another church, or, even better, DONATED to a small church that can't afford to buy their own. Have you noticed that churches seldom give a used organ away even if it was given to them!   > I would rather have a more versatle and > complete organ, even if electronic, than hold > out for pipes or nothing. all of those extra "stops" you get, not to mention lights, pistons, etc, are only more versatile if they work properly musically, which they don't because they're fake and do not move air. Of course, people are fooled, experts can't tell the difference, yada yada yada, but the thing is still a fake, just like Rubber Rhoda who can also wear a petite size 3!   >Just my opinion. It'll probably get me it trouble. Nah! You just have to suffer through one of my tirades..... hehehehe   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o o h o o ______________ o o g o o o s o ______________ o a o o   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............   Dogs love company. They place it first in their short list of needs. --- J. R. Ackerly    
(back) Subject: RE: U.M.Bethany proposal From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:11:42 -0400 (EDT)   Dennis, You need to join OHS and go hear what a well-built little pipe organ can do.... really!   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o o h o o ______________ o o g o o o s o ______________ o a o o   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............   Dogs love company. They place it first in their short list of needs. --- J. R. Ackerly    
(back) Subject: Re: U.M.Bethany proposal From: Prestant16@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:16:12 EDT   To quote a well known organbuilder:   "It is easy to design a large insturment for a large room, but it is the smaller insturments that can be more interesting and artistic"   and he adds...   " It is the challenge to the organbuilder to design a small versitile insturment, capable of leading congregational singing, and for use as a recital insturment"   -W