PipeChat Digest #526 - Saturday, September 19, 1998
 
Re: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>
Re:  RE: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by <D1Bar@aol.com>
Re: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by "Charles Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net>
Looking for music
  by "robert.cowley" <robert.cowley@mci2000.com>
Practice Technique Part 2A
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
RE: RE: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
RE: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Jesse's arranging tricks
  by "Ralph Martin" <rmartinjr@email.msn.com>
Re: Practice Technique - Part 1
  by "John  M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com>
Re: Jesse's arranging tricks
  by "John  M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com>
Re: Jesse's arranging tricks
  by "Steven Margison" <steve@organman.com>
SHRINE KILGEN OHS HISTORIC STATUS
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Practice Technique
  by "KARL W KELLER" <kwkeller@juno.com>
Re: Practice Technique
  by "Roger Pariseau" <grinder@west.net>
RE: SHRINE KILGEN OHS HISTORIC STATUS
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Jesse's arranging tricks
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
RE: Practice Technique
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Re: Practice Technique
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Practice Technique - Part 2B
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Re: Practice Technique - Part 2B
  by "Roger Brown" <robrown@melbpc.org.au>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:44:38 EDT   Dear Charles, What ever happened to play the right hand, then the left, then the pedals, then the left and the pedals, then right and left, then all together? That is the way I was told to practice. Am I wrong? Paul P. Valtos  
(back) Subject: Re: RE: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: D1Bar@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:52:37 EDT   I think it's Toccata; I get them mixed up too, with 2 t's. Also agree that much emphasis be placed on the movements of hands, feet in changing registrations etc. My teacher also felt that if one could control a slow tempo perfectly, the fast would most likely be possible fairly quickly. Also, using the metronome provides the discipline for accurate performance as well as builds in the steadiness that is sometimes difficult to maintain in certain compositions. Look forward to hearing more on effective practice technics.   Doris Bartunek    
(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: "Charles Krug" <cdkrug@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:49:58 -0400   >Dear Charles, What ever happened to play the right hand, then the left, then >the pedals, then the left and the pedals, then right and left, then all >together? That is the way I was told to practice. Am I wrong? >Paul P. Valtos > That's my technique for chorals and hymns--S-B hands, S-A-B hands, S-T-B hands, S-A-T-B hands.   Then I do pedals--S-B etc as before.   If it's unfamiliar, I'll try the feet on sight first, if it is, I may try the pedal playing other voices.   Some other guy named Charles    
(back) Subject: Looking for music From: "robert.cowley" <robert.cowley@mci2000.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:53:35 -0400   Can anyone help me find a organ piece called: "The Whole of the Elegy" by George Felton Bull who was an English composer. Please E-Mail me privately if you know where I can get this music.   THANKS!!!   Bob Cowley Music Director/Organist St. John's Lutheran Church Springfield, OH. 45506  
(back) Subject: Practice Technique Part 2A From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:29:35 -0400   Hello   I originally planned on talking about articulation in this second part. However, some of the responses, I feel, necessitate a regrouping on my part.   There seems to be a feeling on the part of some people that the stops and mechanicals of the organ are something to be worried about after the fact. Let's address this issue!   Why do we practice?   At first blush this seems like an absurd question. However, on closer examination, it is ripe with possibilities.   Imagine for a moment that you are a painter. You are standing before your white, blank canvas with brushes and color pallet in hand. Now what???? Do we just start painting haphazardly hoping something decent may come out on the other side of the process?? Of course not!!!   In order to proceed you must see the finished product, in your mind, on that canvas. You are only bringing out what your mind is seeing already.   Psychologists call this process visualization. In its psychological definition, it is the process of seeing the finished product, or goal, before the process begins.   We practice just to develop the technical tools necessary to bring out our vision of sound. It distresses me to no end when I hear someone make technique the goal. Technique is not the end but only the means to the end!!!!   What should that end be???   A good friend of mine is the NY Philharmonic conductor Kurt Massur. Many people do not know that his instrumental background is one of an organist. Sadly, an accident damaged his hand precluding him from playing any longer. He draws the analogy to the organ and an orchestral score.   As organist, we have a virtual orchestra at our command. This is true whether one is playing the classical or theatre organ. As musicians, we have the considerations of rhythm, articulation, phrasing (all of which I will discuss in future installments, etc. However, we also have all this color to set in in. All these elements are interrelated!!!   We must start off our practice clearly away from the instrument. We must study the score, analyze the tempo and rhythms, the structures, the accents, the colors, etc.   As an example, the famous Bach "Gigue" fugue in G-major. Where do you want to put the accents or stresses? What stop changes do you want? What colors do you want where? Do you want to bring out a voice on a solo stop at some point? What manual changes do you want?   All this must take place BEFORE practice begins. You MUST have this mapped out carefully in your mind as the product you are hoping to produce. Your statement about this work!!!!!   We then go to work, using tools such as slow practice, to develope the necessary technical tools to bring out our vision. Franz Liszt said that technique should never get into the way of vision. NEVER LET TECHNIQUE BE THE GOVERNING FACTOR!!!!! YOU GOVERN TECHNIQUE!!!!   In many instances, you may need to develope unique technical tools in order to bring out your vision. That is where creativity comes into play.   This is the difference between an artist and someone who plays an instrument.   Once we have this picture or goal internalized and part of us, we then go to work laying out the fingerings, pedalings, stop changes, manual changes, swell pedal manipulations, etc. All are equally inmportant to the finished product and all must be practiced with equal weight. Without that, we are just playing notes ona keyboard.   Later on I will post Part 2B to continue this discussion.    
(back) Subject: RE: RE: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:34:42 -0400   Doris:   Your teacher gave you good advice and said it very well.   I have egg on my face for the misspelling...Bach to the third grade.   They didn't learn me no good english...LOL   Charles   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > D1Bar@AOL.COM > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 2:53 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: RE: Practice Technique - Part 1 > > > I think it's Toccata; I get them mixed up too, with 2 t's. Also > agree that > much emphasis be placed on the movements of hands, feet in changing > registrations etc. My teacher also felt that if one could control a slow > tempo perfectly, the fast would most likely be possible fairly quickly. > Also, using the metronome provides the discipline for accurate > performance as > well as builds in the steadiness that is sometimes difficult to > maintain in > certain compositions. Look forward to hearing more on effective practice > technics. > > Doris Bartunek > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: RE: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:38:18 -0400   To Paul:   Your not wrong practicing individual hands and feet. That is another tool in our practice tool chest. However, the slow practice comes into play when we have to bring all the elements together.   Charles   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Charles Krug > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 2:50 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Practice Technique - Part 1 > > > >Dear Charles, What ever happened to play the right hand, then the left, > then > >the pedals, then the left and the pedals, then right and left, then all > >together? That is the way I was told to practice. Am I wrong? > >Paul P. Valtos > > > That's my technique for chorals and hymns--S-B hands, S-A-B hands, S-T-B > hands, S-A-T-B hands. > > Then I do pedals--S-B etc as before. > > If it's unfamiliar, I'll try the feet on sight first, if it is, I may try > the pedal playing other voices. > > Some other guy named Charles > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Jesse's arranging tricks From: "Ralph Martin" <rmartinjr@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:40:45 -0400   List Since posting the list regarding the upside down intro, no one has made any kind of a reply. I don't wish to deluge you with information that you don't deem helpful. Was the information understandable? Was it too difficult? Was it to easy? I'm trying to get a fix on where to start ....and at what level.   I'm also working on a program that will enable me to attach musical examples since it is extremely difficult to explain Jesse's arranging without music script.   Ralph Martin        
(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique - Part 1 From: "John M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:44:24 -0000   I think we all learned to play r.h. then l. h. then r.h. and pedal - etc. But I think you have to try to play it all through and find where the problems are. Perhaps I have a short attention span, but it could be boring. Find out what you can't play, then take it apart, and work with it slowly. Try to play a half measure, or full measure from memory. Even if you don't succeed in doing that, it will make it a lot easier, because you have thought about it and concentrated on it.   JOHN DONEY        
(back) Subject: Re: Jesse's arranging tricks From: "John M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:55:26 -0000   Ralph - Yes the "upside-down" melody is understandable - inversion, a rather sophisticated technic, but very interesting as an introduction. Keep going - I am not a theater organist, but I do teach church organ improvisation and I shall soak it all up. Thanks.   JOHN DONEY        
(back) Subject: Re: Jesse's arranging tricks From: "Steven Margison" <steve@organman.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:03:00 -0500   Personally, I found it GREAT!! Going to try it out this week. Let's have= MORE of this kind of information! Thank you!   *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********   On 9/19/98, at 3:40 PM, Ralph Martin wrote:   >List >Since posting the list regarding the upside down intro, no one has made= any >kind of a reply..org   |=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve= Margison =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D| |=3D=3D=3D Staff Organist, Tivoli Theatre, Downers Grove, IL. =3D=3D=3D| |Organs, Theatres, Ham Radio, Lots of things at my WebSite:| | www.organman.com | |=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|    
(back) Subject: SHRINE KILGEN OHS HISTORIC STATUS From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:44:33 EDT   This morning (Saturday, September 19) the Michigan Chaopter of the OHS (Organ Historical Society) held its meeting at the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak, Michigan. At the end of the meeting, after stop demonstrations and repertoire including the E major Choral by Franck, I was notified that our instrument had been granted "Historic Instrument" status by the OHS. This is indeed wonderful and exciting news.   And as our organ's restoration continues to progress daily this will certainly shed even more light on our church, it's one-of-a-kind instrument and our music program. Since being declared a National Shrine by the Administrative board of the American Conference of Bishops this past Wednesday, it is exciting and a bit scary to think of our new position and visibility not only within the Archdiocese of Detroit but in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church worldwide and in the eyes of professional music circles as well.   Just wanted to share the latest good news with all of you!   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: Practice Technique From: kwkeller@juno.com (KARL W KELLER) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:35:03 -0400   I have been following, with great interest, the above subject. It would appear to me that majority of the members who have been replying are either teachers of organ or at least very well trained organists. I have a question which I would like to your opinion on. I, as many others, have very little formal music training but I have taught myself to play the organ well enough that others compliment me on my playing and seem to enjoy it. I read music but not well. When I am working on a piece it helps me to be able to HEAR it before I try it. Yes, I am imitating what I hear but if I didn't use this method I would be lost. My question, of course, is how many of you teachers, organ students, or well taught organists use this HEAR method ?   I hope we can keep this discussion on a serious level as the subject "Practice Technique" is such a good one. Thank you Charles Brown.   Karl Musica est Dei donum optimi  
(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique From: Roger Pariseau <grinder@west.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:56:36 -0700   KARL W KELLER wrote:   > When I am working on a piece it > helps me to be able to HEAR it before I try it. Yes, I am imitating what > I hear but if I didn't use this method I would be lost. My question, of > course, is how many of you teachers, organ students, or well taught > organists use this HEAR method ?   No lessons here, too, and never was great shakes. Carpal tunnel has slowed me down as well but I keep at it. Funny how playing music builds its own appetite!   Playing a piece you've heard does make it easier to get "into" it -- you can think more about how to change (!) things to your liking. (You should hear what I do to Albioni's Adagio in gm.) But you can simply count out the right hand on a totally unfamiliar piece and work your way through it after a few passes. I've never tried this with the disharmonic crapola Pipe Dreams insists on playing all the time but I imagine that counting the thing out would be the _only_ way to get close were you so motivated.   -- Roger  
(back) Subject: RE: SHRINE KILGEN OHS HISTORIC STATUS From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:48:27 -0700   Congratulations on all the honors the shrine's been getting, Scott. Getting them was great, but now the work begins -- living up to them.   Your heart's in the right place, you'll do it.   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Re: Jesse's arranging tricks From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:44:40 -0400 (EDT)   Ralph, I missed your upside down intro lesson; any chance you got an extra copy lyin' around???   Thanque   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o o h o o ______________ o o g o o o s o ______________ o a o o   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     If the old dog barks he gives counsel. --George Herbert    
(back) Subject: RE: Practice Technique From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:50:22 -0400   Karl:   The technique you are using is called visualization. I know it has to do with sound but it still comes under that category.   Please keep in mind that many of our greatest jazz and pop musicians are musically illiterate.   I have worked many times with former Beetle Paul McCartney. He is now writing more serious works. Interestingly enough, he knows nothing about reading or writing music and requires associates to transcribe what is is singing and playing into musical notation. Visualization is a powerful technique and, in many ways, the most important technique you can learn   Dr. Charles E. Brown clmoney@cybernex.net     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > KARL W KELLER > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 8:35 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Practice Technique > > > I have been following, with great interest, the above subject. It would > appear to me that majority of the members who have been replying are > either teachers of organ or at least very well trained organists. I have > a question which I would like to your opinion on. I, as many others, > have very little formal music training but I have taught myself to play > the organ well enough that others compliment me on my playing and seem to > enjoy it. I read music but not well. When I am working on a piece it > helps me to be able to HEAR it before I try it. Yes, I am imitating what > I hear but if I didn't use this method I would be lost. My question, of > course, is how many of you teachers, organ students, or well taught > organists use this HEAR method ? > > I hope we can keep this discussion on a serious level as the subject > "Practice Technique" is such a good one. Thank you Charles Brown. > > Karl > Musica est Dei donum optimi > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:01:20 -0400 (EDT)     >...how many of you teachers, organ students, > or well taught organists use this HEAR > method ? Although, I read very well, I think probably due to the fact that my early training was self taught and I was a tough teacher and really wanted to move fast, and I enjoy learning pieces from scratch without having heard them. For instance, I am working on Ned Rorem's "Views from the Oldest House" which I have never heard played (and I still have no idea what it sounds like!!). But, most of us have learned pieces because we enjoyed hearing them. In a sense learning music is like learning a language -- it helps to hear it spoken. It is helpful to hear what a piece sounds like, especially if your are ear oriented, but it is important not to imitate what your hear or to memorize to the point that you are not faithful to the page. I began playing the organ at the age of 8 and did not take piano lessons until I was about 12, and then only for two years because the teacher said I had to quit playing the organ. I learned to play hymns (started playing services when I was 11) and learned literature on my own up to Bach Preludes and Fugues. When I started taking organ lessons my junior year in HS I had already played the T&F in d, P&F in a, and things like the Oldroyd Liturgical Preludes, Flor Peeters Aria, Mendelssohn sonatas, and Widor Toccata in F, and the Vierne Final. The secret is to WANT to learn something!   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o o h o o ______________ o o g o o o s o ______________ o a o o   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     If the old dog barks he gives counsel. --George Herbert    
(back) Subject: Practice Technique - Part 2B From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:34:51 -0400   Hello   We left off before talking about visualization. But, this concept of realizing your vision brings some interesting questions.   First of all, from a practice standpoint, what happens if the fingerings learned at tempo A do not work at tempo B?   Practicing is not a linear process but, in many instances, highly regressive. In the process of increasing tempo, if something breaks-down then we did not have the proper fingerings to begin with and we need to go back to tempo A and revise it.   Also, with MUSICAL slow practice (not just going through the mechanics of playing the notes) we may develope new ideas that may necessitate our going back and rethinking the performance. Visualization and artistic growth is an organic process that is constantly changing. read the biography of any great artist and you will see this as a common denominator.   There have been many instances in which I have scrubbed days of work and started back on square one because things have broken down. That is why we slow practice!! To ferret out the flaws and clean them up.   The next question is what happens if we have to perform on an organ that does not lend itself to the vision we have in mind.   As a recitalist, I run into this problem often. Do I govern the organ to bring out my vision or does the organ govern me?   This is where careful program building comes into play. We have to know the instruments we are performing on and only play compositions on those instruments that will allow for artistic integrity. On occasion, I have changed recital programs at the last minute because I felt it was not a good marriage of organ-organist-composition. If i don't hear what I want to hear, I will not play the work on that instrument. Fortunately, this rarely happens.   When I am on a new instrument, I spend a minimum of 12 - 15 hours working out the registrations necessary for me to realize my intent.   However, in all instances, because of slow practice, building a solid technique and a detailed fimiliarization of the composition, adjustments usually do not pose a major problem.   In my next section, I will discuss articulation and legato vs. stacatto.   Dr. Charles E. Brown clmoney@cybernex.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Practice Technique - Part 2B From: robrown@melbpc.org.au (Roger Brown) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:17:47 GMT   On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:34:51 -0400, "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> wrote:     >First of all, from a practice standpoint, what happens if the fingerings >learned at tempo A do not work at tempo B?   Which is precisely the point I made earlier - one which I think perhaps Dr Brown slightly misunderstood.=20 > >Practicing is not a linear process but, in many instances, highly >regressive. In the process of increasing tempo, if something breaks-down >then we did not have the proper fingerings to begin with and we need to = go >back to tempo A and revise it. > Agreed. But I also feel part of the solution is to practise in relatively small "chunks". In a trio sonata for example I would usually want to practise in sections of perhaps only three or four bars and then relatively quickly bring those up to a more normal speed. =20 =20 This brings me to another interesting point which I see others have mentioned. Do you practise separate hands (or separate hands and pedal) or do you attempt to combine both hands and feet from the beginning albeit at slow speed. =20 =20 I must say that in general I favour the latter approach because it forces the player to address one of the fundamental playing difficulties from the start. And as Dr Brown rightly states, if one has mastered such a difficulty at slow speed then the job is mostly done for any speed.=20 > >The next question is what happens if we have to perform on an organ that >does not lend itself to the vision we have in mind.   And again, this brings out one of the reservations I have concerning building registration matters into a students slow practice. I am here especially considering a student in the relatively early years of learning the instrument. =20 =20 Is such a student better to devote his or her energies to acquiring the fundamentals of keyboard and pedal technique without the distractions of registration? Or should they learn to fend for themselves at the console from the start? =20 =20 Dr Brown is absolutely correct that at some stage any worthwhile player must learn the art of smooth registration and that detailed practice of the sort he postulates is the only possible way to acquire such skills. But I would suggest that this is better left until the later stages of student development when the student can concentrate on that aspect without being unduly distracted by the physical demands of keyboard and pedal technique. It's not a question of whether it should be done but at what stage. =20 =20 And I am sure that most of us have found that once the tricks of the trade are acquired, these skills can readily be adapted to a variety of situations, instruments and acoustic surroundings. =20     Roger=20         Roger Brown robrown@melbpc.org.au http://members.tripod.com/~RogerBrown