PipeChat Digest #819 - Friday, April 30, 1999
music performance - programms specifications
  by "domenico severin" <dseverin@club-internet.fr>
home practice organs
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Organ samples
  by "antoni scott" <ascott@epix.net>
Postludes in 18th C. Germany
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Biggs, Fox, and Bish
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
Re: just curious...........
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: just curious...
  by <ZieglerBob@aol.com>
Re: Stucke fur die Flotenuhr
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: dream teams
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: dream teams
  by <Pepehomer@aol.com>
Re: dream teams
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: just curious...........
  by <p.wilson2@juno.com>
Re: just curious...........
  by "Richard Scott-Copeland" <organist@hantslife.co.uk>
...pedal glissandi.....
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>

(back) Subject: music performance - programms specifications From: domenico severin <dseverin@club-internet.fr> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:11:08 +0200   PROGRAMMA N. 1 : IL VIRTUOSISMO ALL'ORGANO Johann Sebastian Bach (1650-1785): Toccata in fa maggiore, BWV 5' Alexandre Pierre-Fran=E7ios Bo=EBly (1785-1858):=20 Allegro, ma non troppo en fa mineur 4' Jean Marie Plum (1899-1944):=20 Etude concertante op. 88 5' Marco Enrico Bossi (1861-1925):=20 Studio sinfonico in sol minore 6' Raffaele Manari (1887-1933):=20 Studio per il pedale sopra il " Salve Regina " 6' Ulisse Matthey (1876-1947):=20 Studio di concerto per il pedale 7' Pietro-Alessandro Yon (1886-1943):=20 Concert Study 5' George Talben-Ball (1896-...):=20 Variations on a theme by Paganini 8' Leo Sowerby (1895-1968): =20 Pageant 12' =20 PROGRAMMA N. 2 : DEUX MAITRES DE L'ORGUE FRAN=C7AIS=20 C=E9sar Franck (1822-1890) :=20 Les trois Chorals 40' Olivier Messiaen (1906-1992) :=20 Messe de la Pentec=F4te 30'   PROGRAMMA N. 3 : LES GRANDES " VIRTUOSO " FRAN=C7AIS Alexandre Pierre Fran=E7ois Bo=EBly (1785-1858) :=20 Fantaisie et fugue en si b=E9mol majeur 7' C=E9sar Franck (1822-1890) :=20 Pi=E8ce H=E9ro=EFque 10' Joseph Bonnet (1884-1944):=20 Variations de Concert 12' Henry Mulet (1878-1967) Toccata "Tu es Petra" 6' Louis Vierne (1870-1937) :=20 Toccata (extrait des "24 pi=E8ces de fantaisie) Marcel Dupr=E9 (1886-1971) :=20 Pr=E9lude et fugue en sol mineur, op. 7 8' Charles Tournemire (1870-1939) De "L'Orgue mystique":=20 Epiphania Domini, Fantaisie finale 6' Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) : de "L'Ascension": All=E9luias sereins d'une =E2me qui d=E9sire le ciel 6' Transport de joie 5' Jean Langlais (1907-1991) : =20 Hymne d'actions de gr=E2ces " Te Deum " 5' Jean Alain (1911-1940) :=20 Litanies 4'   PROGRAMMA N. 4 : LE POEME SYMPHONIQUE POUR ORGUE C=E9sar Franck (1822-1890) :=20 Grand pi=E8ce symphonique 25' Franz Liszt (1811-1886) :=20 Fantaisie et fugue sur le choral " Ad nos ad salutarem undam "=20 27'   PROGRAMMA N. 5 : MARCO-ENRICO BOSSI (75=B0 ANNIVERSARIO DALLA MORTE) -=20 Da " Cinque pezzi " op. 104 =20 Entr=E9e Pontificale 2'50'' R=E9signation 2' R=E9demption 5'30'' Etude Symphonique op. 78 6' Th=E8me et variations op. 115 14' Da " Dieci pezzi op. 118 " =20 Toccata di concerto 4'15'' Scherzo in sol minore op. 49 6' Pi=E8ce h=E9ro=EFque op. 128 5'20'' Cinque pezzi op. 132 =20 Leggenda 4' Corteggio funebre 3' Scena pastorale 4' Hora mystica 2'30'' Hora gaudiosa 4' Intermezzo Lirico 2'30'' Meditazione in una cattedrale op.144 8' =20   PROGRAMMA N. 6 : JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH (250=B0 ANNIVERSARIO DALLA MORTE) = - Toccata, adagio e fuga in do maggiore BWV 564' 15' Choral "Von Gott will ich nicht lassen" BWV 658 4' Partite supra "Sei Gegr=FCsset, Jesu g=FCtig" BWV 768 21'=20 Preludio e fuga in la minore BWV 543 8'=20 Choral "Schm=FCcke dich, o liebe Seele" BWV 654 7' Concerto in la minore, da Vivaldi BWV 593 11' Triosonata n. 5 in do maggiore BWV529 15' Passacaglia in do minore BWV 582 12'   PROGRAMMA N. 7: LE ROMANTISME ALLEMAND=20 Felix Mendelssohn-Bartoldy (1809-1847) Tre Preludi e fuga op. 37 27' Sonata n. 4 op. 65 in si bemolle maggiore 17' Johannes Brahms (1833-1897) Preludio e fuga in sol minore 7' 11 Chorals op. 122 34'  
(back) Subject: home practice organs From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:22:52 -0700   Folks:   Check out   http://theatreorgans.com/ads/wtsello.htm   (New Theatre Organ Classifieds ... all kinds of used pipe, electronic, reed)   and   http://www.tneorg.com/och/   (Organ Clearing House)   Somebody recently got one of those little tiny 3-rank Moller Artistes from the '30s from OCH for next to nothing ... they have harmonium reed basses for the 16', and fit under an 8' ceiling. They make GREAT practice organs.   I think that's more to the point that leasing something.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ samples From: antoni scott <ascott@epix.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:10:31 -0400   Hi Mat and the List:   I have been interested in a similar project. I have contacted several "sampler" people but have had no success. I have some single stops that were sampled from 4 organs ( some very good, some not so good) from "Church Organs" by Universal Soundbank. My problem is that the Sampling keyboard I have only has 32 note ployphony and 16 megs of ram. New modules are available with 128 megs of ram and 128 note polyphony, but they are expensive and probably cumbersome to use.   Presently, I have two ASR 10 keyboards and a 32 note AGO pedalkeyboard that I use as a practice organ. With the "stops" I have available, I can transpose them from 32' pitch to 1' pitch and add them together to give me the desired effect. Right now I am working on Bach's "Come Sweet Death" and I created a "String" department by taking the Voix Celeste at 8'. duplicating it at 4' and 16' Pitch and adding them altogether for a Wanamaker String "effect". I took the 16' Open Wood and transposed it down to 32 and added it to the 16, 8 and 4 for an awesome pedal. =20   No-one out there is serious about sampling individual stops on a big scale. I think there would be many people interested. I have dozens of Principals and Diapasons to choose from to suite my taste. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to play them altogether.   However, until someone comes out with an "organ" that sounds as good as what I have, and at a price that a human being can afford, what I have is quite sufficient.=20     Sincerely,       Antoni Scott   Matthew J. Baker wrote: >=20 > I posted a while back on a digital organ I'm working on (which has > gotten nowhere since then) and samples. I too am rather badly in need > of and have done quite a lot of searching for samples of stops and rank= s > but have found nothing really useful. >=20 > What I would really like to do is start up a project on the Web for > collecting samples of as many different kinds of stops as possible, for > the benefit of those wanting to make samples for their synths as well a= s > for non-organists who want to know what certain individual stops sound > like (such as myself). A while back I ran across the Sound Canvas Pipe > Organ Project ( http://www.scpop.de/ ) which involves collecting sample= s > but it's (infuriatingly) a specialized project only for the Roland Soun= d > Canvas. I want to do something like this and put together what will be > a totally exhaustive NO-NONSENSE collection of INDIVIDUAL samples of > (ideally) EVERY single organ stop invented (of different styles as well= , > such as French, English, etc) that can easily be used for/with ANYTHING > and isn't dependent on any one synth/setup (ordinary .wav's or mp3's). > What I'd like to know is how feasible you think such a project is and > how many of you would like to see such a collection or be willing to > help out in putting one together. Personally I'd think there's a lot o= f > organists and organ-enthusiasts who at one time or another would like t= o > know the difference between a Trumpet and a Trompette, or a Premier > Trompette and a Deuxieme Trompette, or a Spillfl=F6te and a Spitzfl=F6t= e and > a Starkfl=F6te, and so on, or wants to know what a Kinomoco or a > K=E4lberregal or a Kinura or a Krumet Horn (you get the idea) actually > sound like and would like a source where they can easily LISTEN for > themselves instead of going by near-useless verbal descriptions. But a= s > far as I've been able to tell nothing of the like exists, which is > extremely unfortunate. What such a project would entail is getting a > bunch of people to go to a bunch of different organs, setting up a mike > or two (in different places to compensate for acoustics and nodes and > antinodes) and a recorder and spending a couple hours at the organ > recording one note at a time for 3-5 seconds each (just the C's and G's > would probably be sufficient) with a few seconds of silence between > each, one stop at a time, or at least those stops not already in the > collection (by way of example, it's doubtful we would need samples from > 50 different 8'-principal ranks, although I would like samples of any > one stop from at least 3 different organs of each nationality/style to > allow for differences in room acoustics and organ-builder and stuff). > In a couple months or so I'll be getting samples from a 102-rank organ > here in town (and maybe a 133-rank one in town also), which would make = a > good starting point with a lot of the more common stops (I have specs > for each organ if you're interested). These samples wouldn't have to b= e > anything mega-quality, just something with decent quality you can liste= n > to to learn what a stop sounds like, or use as a decent basis for > preparing a sample (see below). >=20 > I'm interested in what any of you think about such a project and if > you'd be interested in helping out with getting samples. Personally > this is something I would really like to see happen. Feel free to emai= l > me directly if you want. I only get the digest version of the list onc= e > a day so my responses to any posts on the list will be delayed a day or > so. >=20 > I've been in contact with someone who has made a digital organ-of-sorts > using synths, PC's and software synthesis. What he did (instead of > using raw samples of pipes) is record some samples and separate the > periodic (main tone and harmonic structure) and nonperiodic (the "chiff= " > or noise, I think he calls it "quasiperiodic") components of each sampl= e > and then manually reconstruct them, which according to him allows a lot > of control over the quality of the sample and sounds better than a raw > sample would. For those of you who use plain samples it's something yo= u > might be interested in. >=20 > One more thing--I might as well answer this question: > Carlo Pietroniro wrote: >=20 > > Hey all, > > > > I'm a little curious as to how many of you are churc= h > organists, concert organists, choir directors or organ enthusiasts. > Also, out of the organists, what type of instruments do you have in you= r > home to practice on? > > > > Carlo > > > > P.S. I have a Rodgers 960 (3-manual) >=20 > Right now I'm not an organist (or a musician--yet), just an enthusiast. > I've been interested in organs since I was 4--I'm now 25--I think it's > time I started playing... > I don't have an organ so I'm building a digital one which will be made > of ordinary PCs and use software synthesis (in other words most of it > will just be programmed). Now if only I had samples... >=20 > -- > < Transmit src: poinsettia@netxn.com ID1 LCARS Channel 1 Lineout = > >=20 > <YuSeEkMeAtNo31101993 http://www.netxn.com/~poinsettia/index.html= > >=20 > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Postludes in 18th C. Germany From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:29:12 -0400   Someone was asking about postludes--where did they come from?   And then it was suggested that I might find some answers in "Johann Sebastian Bach and Liturgical Life in Leipzig" by Gunther Stiller (CPH, 1984). I have not--yet; but I'm still trying.   So I have dug in some of my older and moldier sources.   Uiberhaupt leidet die Kirche im Vorspiel [Prelude] bey weitem nicht so viel Umschweifes und Ausdehnung, als im Nachspiel [Postlude]. Wie den auch von her die K=FCnstlichsten Organisten ihre besten Einf=E4lle zum . . .   Oh, I'm just too slow at that. Let me offer a translation:   "In general the Church suffers less from digressive and long-winded playing during the prelude than during the postlude. This is true even when the most talented organists in the area cultivate their best ideas at the so-called 'Ausgang.' [Well, that sure beats "Ausfahrt" at the exit portals of so many things in Germany!] Such postludes are customary only in church= .. [As opposed to where?]"   You'll recognize that paragraph, of course, as from "Der vollkommene Capellmeister," by Johann Mattheson, published by Christian Herold in Hamburg in 1739. Johann definitely lumps the playing of both preludes and postludes as improvisatory activity:   "Under the rubric of free improvisation we also include the prelude. Even more important, however, is the postlude, for during the postlude one has more time and liberty than during the prelude (this is especially true on the organ). Since free improvisation can prove to be a helpful expedient i= n both instances, we will want to deal with it in considerable detail."   Typical German attitude: "There is much to say, so I will be sure to say i= t all. You WILL be edified." Anyway, he's making it clear that he is unenthusiastic about the abuse of the postlude by those who improvise at length for their own pleasure (what's wrong with that?), even as he is pointing out the postlude as the right time to exercise the vice of such abuse.   Abbreviating here considerably: There were P&F types (where the F is a "conclusion" to the P), and there were the north-German multisectional Praeludium Pedaliter (for which a fugue served as "a part" of the P). Both were used as pre- and postludes. [So I gather that a Prelude can be a Postlude.]   "As for fugue-playing, there are two types. The first concerns the execution of chorale preludes. In this case the fugue material is derived directly from the melody of the chorale. The second has to do with the prelude and postlude, as a part or conclusion of the same. In this instanc= e one can choose or invent whatever themes one wishes."   Now, of course, to confess my source: The Organ Preludes of Johann Sebastian Bach, a nice little hardcover book by George B. Stauffer, 1978. UMI [University Microfilms Intl.] Research Press, Ann Arbor, Mich.   Now Mr. Stauffer also quotes a student of JSB, one Johann Adolph Scheibe, who, in his Der Chritische Musicus, describes the improvisatory process on preludes and postludes in greater detail:   "This generally takes place with the full organ. One should employ good an= d lively invention and should crown such a prelude or postlude with a fine an= d magnificent fugue. Moreover, when an organist plays at the beginning or en= d of the worship service and, as it often happens, has plenty of time to execute something ambitious, then he can truly demonstrate the extent of hi= s inventiveness and show how skillful a performer he is." (That was publishe= d by Thomas von Wierings Erben of Hamburg on July 14, 1739.)   Now of course we're all familiar with the accounts of later theorists such as Johann Samuel Petri and Daniel Gottlob T=FCrk, who testify to the use of Vorspielen and Nachspielen well into the second half of the XVIII. century. Petri, for example, in his Anleitung zur praktischen Musik of 1782:   "With regard to the enlivenment and amusement of an audience, it is certainly permitted for an organist in a prelude before a wedding, during (as is customary in some cities) the exiting of the congregation from the church, before the Te Deum, and in various similar situations to display al= l of his ingenuity, and to allow himself to be heard with the full organ in brilliant thematic or fugal preludes, pedal solos, and similar things."   And T=FCrk, five years later, in his Von den wichtigsten Pfichten eines Organisten (published at Halle by Kosten des Verfassers):   "Under the heading of postlude . . . I group the free fantasia, which in many places is customarily performed at the end of the worship service. Fo= r the most part, these fantasias are nothing more than simple preludes, thoug= h a fugue would also fit in most appropriately. Perhaps the postlude is the most suitable spot for an organist to display his complete dexterity. He may weave in a pedal solo and may make use of everything that demonstrates his ingenuity. If he yields to excess in the process, the disturbance that he produces is not very considerable, for most of the congregation=8Bisn't listening any more! [. . . den der gr=F6sste Theil der Gemeinde=8Bh=F6rt nicht mehr davon." Well, we're certainly familiar with THAT phenomenon!]   Mr. Stauffer, who's quoting these older fellows, summarizes a bit:   "Precisely how widespread the custom of preluding and postluding in the worship service was during Bach's lifetime is difficult to determine. Both T=FCrk and Petri, writing after Bach's death, specifically mention it took place in "some" cities. One can assume, therefore, that it was not a universal practice in the Lutheran church in the eighteenth century. The theorists who cite the improvisation of preludes and postludes are predominantly north German."   Well, one could go on forever. As for me, I can find middle C, and know that the swell is above the great (on the manuals)--and I can read books, and cheer you gals and guys on. You give great pleasure as you "display [your] complete dexterity." Thank you.   Alan   Special thanks to St. Luke's organist Matt Knip's library.                  
(back) Subject: Re: Biggs, Fox, and Bish From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:49:53 -0600   >What a rush! I can see it now....."Organ Concert featuring Power Biggs, >Virgil Fox and Diane Bish". Talk about a trio.........Can you imagine a >stage with 3 organs side by side, with all 3 of them playing together? Now >THAT would be a concert to end all concerts.   I'm afraid so, and in more way than one! Unless you've got access to your own personal mint, putting together that many big names on one program would break the bank and STILL draw only a handful of organ devotees. This is a problem that plagues all areas of classical music, with the big name soloists such as Perlman and Te Kanawa demanding higher fees than the average orchestra could ever hope to pay. Besides one hour of "The Joy of Music" was enough Bish to last a lifetime.   Rob      
(back) Subject: Re: just curious........... From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:19:36 -0400   Carlo: I may be (almost) the only one in organchat who has no professional or even amateur connection to any kind of organ. I have studied it, played for a few services, was a choirmaster for a couple years out west, did a little apprentice work in maintenance in the early 50s, love the beast, but am essentially an unashamed groupie. I do have a modicum of theological education, with primary interest in liturgy and music, so I try to hold up some parts of that end of the conversation. At home? A 1r 4' harpsichord (Zuckerman from a kit, 1965?). And lots of CDs. I claim position of leading host to listers who visit the Big Apple.   Alan Freed, Parish Administrator, St. Luke's Church (ELCA), New York   ---------- >From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> >To: pipechat@pipechat.org >Subject: just curious........... >Date: Tue, Apr 27, 1999, 11:29 PM >   > how many of you are church organists, concert organists, choir directors or > organ enthusiasts. Also, out of the organists, what type of instruments do > you have in your home to practice on?  
(back) Subject: Re: just curious... From: ZieglerBob@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:52:17 EDT   On Tuesday, April 27, 1999 10:29 PM Carlo Pietroniro <concert_organist@hotmail.com> said:   >I'm a little curious as to how many of you are church >organists, concert organists, choir directors or organ enthusiasts. Also, >out of the organists, what type of instruments do you have in your home to >practice on?   Wannabe Saloon Organist Not-so-wannbe emergency church organist (when they can't get anyone else) Wannabe owner of a new organ but can't afford it tired old railroad man tired old Conn Theaterette with a Leslie 710 not necessarily in that order :)     Bob Ziegler zieglerbob@aol.com Playing in the key of "off" in beautiful downtown Sauk Village, IL.    
(back) Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_St=FCcke_fur_die_Fl=F6tenuhr?= From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:29:27 -0400 (EDT)   I have decided to do a few of these for my Sept concert. They will work nicely on my organ, since I have quite a few pretty flute stops. --Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: dream teams From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:34:24 -0400 (EDT)   I would like to do a dueling organist concert with Gerre Hancock, trying to out improv each other. I think it would be a blast. Since it would be friendly, there would be no need to declare Mssr. Hancock the winner :) :). --Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: dream teams From: Pepehomer@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:40:04 EDT   Maybe my memory is failing me, but didn't Bach and Mendelssohn once have a feud going on who could sight read the best? Is that just a legend, are the two composers even in the same time period? I heard it a long time ago - apparently Bach won on default, since the other organist was a no-show...   Justin Karch Holy Trinity LCMS Rome, GA  
(back) Subject: Re: dream teams From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 00:55:15 -0400 (EDT)   that would be a wonderful event. but Mendelssohn was in early 1800s, after Bach's 1750 demise. --Neil.    
(back) Subject: Re: just curious........... From: p.wilson2@juno.com Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:18:35 EDT   Glad you qualified that! I am also an "unashamed groupie". I know there are probably several more of us on this list, but they're probably just too shy to say anything.   Shalom, Preston Wilson p.wilson2@juno.com   On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:19:36 -0400 "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> writes: >Carlo: I may be (almost) the only one in organchat who has no >professional or even amateur connection to any kind of organ.   **snip**   >, love the beast, but am essentially an unashamed groupie. I do have >a modicum of theological education, with primary interest in liturgy >and music, so I try to hold up some parts of that end of the >conversation. At home? A 1r 4' harpsichord (Zuckerman from a kit, >1965?). And lots of CDs. I claim position of leading host to listers who >visit the Big Apple. > >Alan Freed, Parish Administrator, St. Luke's Church (ELCA), New York > >----------   ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Re: just curious........... From: "Richard Scott-Copeland" <organist@hantslife.co.uk> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:48:56 +0100   Hey all, >> >> I'm a little curious as to how many of you are church >organists, concert organists, choir directors or organ enthusiasts. Also, >out of the organists, what type of instruments do you have in your home to >practice on? >> >>Carlo   I am the organist at the City Centre Catholic Parish in Southampton, a city of 200,000-odd residents. The Church is victorian, would seat about 600 or so and is moderately large (by English standards) and laid out in the usual Catholic manner. I play for virtually all the services, and fill in at other churches also for weddings and funerals etc. I also play theatre organ, having learnt with Reginald Porter-Brown - a significant theatre organist of his day - on the twin 4 manual consoles of the largest Compton organ ever built, in the Guildhall, Southampton.   The organ at church is A 3m Walker, originally of 1864 vintage, but rebuilt in 1923 and again in 1956. There is a smaller 'altar' organ controlled by the same console also, with its own blower and action.   I do not have an organ at home, the church being a mere 500 metres from my door!   Richard Scott-Copeland Southampton England      
(back) Subject: ...pedal glissandi..... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:04:49 EDT   Hey all,   does anyone know pieces with glissandi in the pedals? I can think of 2 so far. Variations on a theme by Paganini by Thalben-Ball Finale from Concerto Gregoriano by Pietro Yon   Are they any others out there?   Carlo Get Your Private, Free Email at http://<