PipeChat Digest #1022 - Monday, August 9, 1999
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #1020 - 08/07/99
  by "tgregory@speeddial.net" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
Re: damaged pipes
  by "Donald Pole" <pandk@ciaccess.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #1020 - 08/07/99
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: damaged pipes
  by "Simon Dyk" <noto@river.netrover.com>
Re: compass of Celeste ranks
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: pipe organ popularity
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
fixing damaged pipes X-post
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Oak Cliff Lutheran Church - Service Music
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Top Ten Retitled Hymns
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Top Ten Retitled Hymns
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: chorale preludes
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire
  by <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: fixing damaged pipes X-post
  by "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com>
Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD
  by "Geri T Schipper" <geriskip@juno.com>
V Williams: Lark Ascending
  by "Matthew J Collins" <mcoll@panix.com>
Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
wonderful Sunday at St. Matthew's
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@MediaOne.net>
Oak Cliff Lutheran Church - Service Music
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: compass of Celeste ranks
  by "Tom Jones" <tomj@netpath.net>
Re: compass of Celeste ranks (and also 73-note chests)
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
damaged pipes - X post
  by <JDeCaria@aol.com>
Re: damaged pipes - X post
  by "David Enlow" <davenlow@hotmail.com>
Re: pipe organ popularity
  by "Richard Scott-Copeland" <organist@gemshorn.freeserve.co.uk>
 


(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #1020 - 08/07/99 From: "tgregory@speeddial.net" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 99 05:27:08 -0500   HELP!   I RECEIVED 34 COPIES OF PIPECHAT DIGEST #1020-08/07/99.   I enjoy reading this list, but 34 times seems a little excessive!   How do I fix this problem?   Tom Gregory Waukesha WI USA  
(back) Subject: Re: damaged pipes From: Donald Pole <pandk@ciaccess.com> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 06:55:49   Flattened upper pipe bodies and resonators can easily be reshaped. You should take the pipes to an organbuilder who has various cylindrical and tapered mandrels. Organbuilders in the Toronto area with pipe shops are Blair Batty [Simoce] and Hal Gober [formerly Toronto, now Fergus area].   Don   Pole and Kingham http://www.pandk.com  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #1020 - 08/07/99 From: Administrator <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 06:18:23 -0500   >HELP! > >I RECEIVED 34 COPIES OF PIPECHAT DIGEST #1020-08/07/99. > >I enjoy reading this list, but 34 times seems a little excessive! > >How do I fix this problem? > >Tom Gregory >Waukesha WI USA   Tom and any other List Members who received multiple copies of the Digest,   In going through the Server Log Files for last night and early this morning I have discovered that there are many entries relating to your address along with some other addresses that have the entry "smtp send: ERROR!! the connection was prematurely closed (-32004)". With the number of these entries in the log I am going surmise that there were problems out on the Internet late last night and early this morning.   When the list server, or any email server for that matter, sends out a piece of email it expects to receive back from the receiving server a command that the email sent was received correctly. If it doesn't receive back this command it will keep attempting to resend the email message until it gets the "successful" command. I am going to guess that since the connection kept closing prematurely that the list server kept sending off copies of that Digest until it got a successful command. But in the meantime your mail server got the full copy each time it was sent. There is nothing that either you or I can do about this - it is beyond the control of both of us.   David   **************************************** David Scribner Co-Owner / Technical Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org 850-478-9635 mailto:david@blackiris.com  
(back) Subject: Re: damaged pipes From: Simon Dyk <noto@river.netrover.com> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:11:39 -0400 (EDT)   Just to keep you up to date. Hal Gober has his shop in Toronto until October 31, 1999. The move to the new shop in Elora will take place on Nov 1, 1999.   At 06:55 AM 8/8/99, you wrote: >Flattened upper pipe bodies and resonators can easily be reshaped. You >should take the pipes to an organbuilder who has various cylindrical and >tapered mandrels. Organbuilders in the Toronto area with pipe shops are >Blair Batty [Simoce] and Hal Gober [formerly Toronto, now Fergus area]. > >Don > > >Pole and Kingham >http://www.pandk.com > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   ************************************************************ Simon Dyk Toronto Canada   GOBER ORGANS INC. http://www.interlog.com/~goberorg CHURCH OF THE TRANSFIGURATION http://www.interlog.com/~transfig/trans.htm PERSONAL HOME PAGE: http://www.netrover.com/~noto/gober/~noto.html      
(back) Subject: Re: compass of Celeste ranks From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:41:34 +0100   >The National Shrine of the Little Flower organ, Geo. Kilgen and Son, opus >5180, 1933 has the following celestes and compasses (taken from the original >contract). I must admit that it is VERY nice to play about soprano C = with >the super coupler and not lose notes and it is also nice to go all the = way >down to low manual C and still have a celeste undulating! Info = following:     An organ I play on has lovely strings, using the sub & super couplers you can get them at 32',16',8' & 4' Pitches: Swell (Enclosed): 16' Contra Gamba 8' Echo Gamba 8' Some Sort of Stringy Stop (which I don't remember the name of!!) 8' Vox Celeste   Choir (Enclosed): 8' Viol d'Orchestra 8' Gamba 8' Unda Maris   That is the most amount of strings I have encountered on a church organ = that I have played, what do y'all have on yours?   Richard    
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organ popularity From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:52:01 +0100   >Are outsiders welcome to attend worship services for the sole purpose of >listening to the organ music? >Do congregations welcome outsiders to attend their worship services if = the >worship service is secondary to the visitor's reason for attending?     I dare say that this still happens today, but when Pierre Cochereau was still alive, Notre-Dame would fill up with many people who just wanted to hear him improvise, and the worshippers would choose Notre-Dame because Cochereau's improvisations were so inspiring for them.   Richard    
(back) Subject: fixing damaged pipes X-post From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:17:34 EDT   Let's be honest...   First the list would need to know if the parents of these "destructive = brats" are heavy contributors to the church coffers.   Stan Krider   Joseph DeCaria angrily (I imagine) asks for:   >...any suggestions on fixing those bratty children AND their rude = parents...    
(back) Subject: Oak Cliff Lutheran Church - Service Music From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:15:55 EDT   Oak Cliff Lutheran Church Dallas, Texas   11th Sunday after Pentecost August 8, 1999 10:00 AM Worship   Prelude: Chorale Prelude on "Neumark" - Don Hustad Hymn: Lord, Take My Hand - SO NIMM DENN MEINE HANDE Psalm: Psalm 85 "Benedixisti, Domine" - ANGLICAN CHANT Hymn: O God, Our Help in Ages Past - ST. ANNE Hymn: Eternal Father, Strong to Save - MELITA Anthem: Jesus Walking - Anthony Piccolo Offertory: Prelude on "ST. ANNE" - Healy Willan Hymn: Jesus Calls Us, O'er the Tumult - GALILEE Postlude: Trumpet Fanfare on "Rescue the Perishing" - Don Hustad   John A. Gambill, Jr. Organist/Choirmaster http://members.tripod.com/~organist_johng/index.html  
(back) Subject: Re: Top Ten Retitled Hymns From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:29:44 -0700   A favorite among Southern Baptist youth in the early 1960s was: "Gladly, the Cross-Eyed Bear."   Randy Runyon interim organist, Monfort Heights Methodist, Cincinnati beginning 8/29/99: organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Re: Top Ten Retitled Hymns From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:30:29 EDT   "Take my wife and let me be"   John  
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:36:05 -0700     >Berlioz - L'Enfant du Christ (!!??) - I can't spell French   It's a good thing, else you'd be guilty of a pretty imaginative re-interpretation of the relationship between Christ and Mary Magdalene. ;-)   Randy Runyon interim organist, Monfort Heights United Methodist, Cinti. beginning 8/29/99: organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cinti.      
(back) Subject: Re: chorale preludes From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:52:56 -0400 (EDT)   I have heard Couperin performed with alternatum verses chanted as well, and it was nice, but ever to the point where I considered t essential. I would ike to find the actual chants from which the themes are drawn.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   I love a dog. =A0 He does nothing for political reasons. =A0 -- Will Rogers    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire From: dougcampbell@juno.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:38:48 -0400       On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:50:30 EDT ScottFop@aol.com writes: >As seems to be the tradition in the Roman Church, predominantly, >choirs and >organists present "mini-concerts" frequently on Christmas Eve >immediately >preceding the Midnight Mass. > Scott,   Do you have a bell choir ????     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY   ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 15:31:10 EDT   In a message dated 8/6/99 5:06:47 PM Central Daylight Time, dillardm@airmail.net writes:   << Anyone know of any pieces with names of flowers in their titles? >>   The Yellow Rose of Texas :-)   John Dallas/Houston, TX  
(back) Subject: Re: fixing damaged pipes X-post From: "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:06:00 PDT     > >Let's be honest... > >First the list would need to know if the parents of these "destructive >brats" >are heavy contributors to the church coffers. > Shouldn't matter, destruction is destruction. Perhaps these heavy contributors could afford to send their brats to a finishing school.     _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD From: Geri T Schipper <geriskip@juno.com> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:44:37 -0400   BlueBells of Scotland. Geri  
(back) Subject: V Williams: Lark Ascending From: Matthew J Collins <mcoll@panix.com> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 19:20:04 -0400 (EDT)     At Timothy Smith's 3 August concert at Riverside Church (NYC)(*1), he = played an arrangement of Ralph Vaughan Williams' "The Lark Ascending", for organ and violin (Robert Taylor on violin). IMHO, it was a stunning arrangement = / performance, and I was wondering if anybody else has recorded such an arrangement, or if there are any plans to issue this on CD? Any info = would be appreciated.   --- Matthew Collins   *1: other works were: "War March of the Priests" from 'Athalie', Mendelssohn; Choral #2 in b minor, Franck; Toccata & Fugue in d minor, J S Bach; Priere, from 'Quatre Pieces' Op. 37, Joseph Jongen; and Prelude & Fugue in B Major, Op7 #1, Dupre.   --- mcoll@panix.com --- http://www.panix.com/~mcoll = ------------------------ Copyright 1999 Matthew J. Collins. Reproduction or distribution = prohibited except for direct response on Usenet or e-mail. Unsolicited commercial email will be proofread at $175 per message. Hi mom.    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:08:58 -0700   Be NICE, Randy (grin) ... they tried to BEAT French into me in the first grade in private school ... I can read it, but I won't SPEAK a word of it .... had fun tweaking the very Parisian clerk's nose at Durand in Paris = when I WROTE what I wanted to see and/or purchase ... but never COULD spell it, and that's a fact.   Cheers,   Bud   Randolph Runyon wrote:   > >Berlioz - L'Enfant du Christ (!!??) - I can't spell French > > It's a good thing, else you'd be guilty of a pretty imaginative > re-interpretation of the relationship between Christ and Mary Magdalene. > ;-) > > Randy Runyon > interim organist, Monfort Heights United Methodist, Cinti. > beginning 8/29/99: organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cinti. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: wonderful Sunday at St. Matthew's From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:26:01 -0700   The OLD, LOW-CHURCH Sunday Morning Prayer congregation opined that they LIKE Gregorian notation for the Psalms ... "it's easier to READ", sez they. Will wonders never cease??!!   Church was PACKED for the High Mass ... and they SANG ... that seems to be happening more and more, and these weren't particularly easy hymns: "Not Always On the Mount May We", which is set to a wonderful but VERY hard-to-sing tune of Percy Carter Buck (Mont Richard), so we sang it to "Puer nobis", and "The Lord is Come on Syrian Soil", which is set to the Barnby tune "Jordan" in the Hymnal (which nobody knows), so we sang it to "St. Patrick's Breastplate" ... they're pretty used to shenanigans like that, but even without a choir the result was REALLY spectacular .... totally drowned the Hammond OUT, thank you very much.   And the PSALM ... my goodness ... it may not be particularly authentic, but a massed congregation singing Russell in F (#645 in the '40 Hymnal) in unison is FUN.   I snuck in "The Old Rugged Crucifix" (sic) during Communion, just to tweak the retired choirmistress's nose ... she turned around and glared at me, but everybody was singing along, even though they didn't have the words.   But the best part was the carnival afterwards ... staid hat-and-gloves Anglican ladies getting flowers painted on their faces, kids gorging themselves on hot dogs and running around screaming and playing in the Big Bouncer (one of those blow-up carnival-type thingies), a cakewalk, and a RAFFLE (how RC ... grin). Last year this time we had about 50 at the High Mass; today was well over a hundred (the church only seats 120).   Think we'll be keeping Transfiguration on Sunday from now on ... BTW, isn't August 6th also the dies obit for John Mason Neale?   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Choir/organ repertoire From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:40:57 EDT   In a message dated 8/8/99 4:08:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dougcampbell@juno.com writes:   << Do you have a bell choir ???? >>   Unfortunately. <giggle>  
(back) Subject: Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:46:55 EDT   "The Lily of the Valley"  
(back) Subject: Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD From: Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@MediaOne.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:58:19 -0400       DRAWKNOB@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/6/99 5:06:47 PM Central Daylight Time, > dillardm@airmail.net writes: > > << Anyone > know of any pieces with names of flowers in their titles? >> > > The Yellow Rose of Texas :-) > > John > Dallas/Houston, TX   Good choice, and it has a wonderful petal solo!   ....And a very nice tie-in to organ "Pizza" music which is best when it is half-baked with a little flour!   Stan :-)  
(back) Subject: Oak Cliff Lutheran Church - Service Music From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:12:41 EDT   Oak Cliff Lutheran Church Dallas, Texas   11th Sunday after Pentecost August 8, 1999 10:00 AM Worship   Prelude: Chorale Prelude on "Neumark" - Don Hustad Hymn: Lord, Take My Hand - SO NIMM DENN MEINE HANDE Psalm: Psalm 85 "Benedixisti, Domine" - ANGLICAN CHANT Hymn: O God, Our Help in Ages Past - ST. ANNE Hymn: Eternal Father, Strong to Save - MELITA Anthem: Jesus Walking - Anthony Piccolo Offertory: Prelude on "ST. ANNE" - Healy Willan Hymn: Jesus Calls Us, O'er the Tumult - GALILEE Postlude: Trumpet Fanfare on "Rescue the Perishing" - Don Hustad   John A. Gambill, Jr. Organist/Choirmaster http://members.tripod.com/~organist_johng/index.html  
(back) Subject: Re: compass of Celeste ranks From: "Tom Jones" <tomj@netpath.net> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:22:30 -0400   One of the few criticisms I have of the Casavant (3/38, 1990) is that the celeste doesn't go all the way down. I think not getting full compass is a mistake--not as egregious with the celeste as with the tierce, but still a mistake. Casavant said there wasn't room. They finally agreed to take it down to great G, which is better than tenor c, but still there are times when you really need the full compass. The first movement of the Widor Fifth, for example, has one variation (it sounds sort of like "Flight of the Bumblebee") where the solo is played on the strings, and it goes down to low C. Having the celesting stop for the last few notes is an effect I can only describe as gross.   Regards, Tom Jones Organist/Choir Director Mebane Presbyterian Church, Mebane, N.C.  
(back) Subject: Re: compass of Celeste ranks (and also 73-note chests) From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:26:10 -0700       Tom Jones wrote:   > One of the few criticisms I have of the Casavant (3/38, 1990) is = that > the celeste doesn't go all the way down. I think not getting full = compass > is a mistake--not as egregious with the celeste as with the tierce, but > still a mistake.   Dessus de Tierce stops drive me NUTS ... how do you play a Grand Jeu when = the Tierce drops out in the bass? It's those clanging pure thirds in the bass = that give the characteristic sound to a Basse de Tierce and/or a Grand Jeu. = Treble tierces/cornets in French classic Recits are fine and dandy, but there = should be at least one REALLY snarly full-compass Tierce in an organ of any size, = and preferably a Gros Tierce on the G.O.   I'm all for 61-note (or even 73-note) celestes ... up an octave with subs = and supers ... GOOSHY (grin)!   On old organs (Austin, for instance) how you got brightness was to play up = an octave with the super-coupler drawn ... since at least Austin Swells had 73-note chests, you got that extra octave of treble pipes via the super-coupler.   Cheers,   Bud (who's very eclectic in his tastes in organs)    
(back) Subject: Re: Repertoire/Theme Ideas For Shrine Kilgen CD From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 19:27:10 -0700   "He's the Lily of the valley, the bright and morning star ..."   Bud (who had out the Cokesbury Worship Hymnal during Communion today)   Stanley Lowkis wrote:   > DRAWKNOB@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 8/6/99 5:06:47 PM Central Daylight Time, > > dillardm@airmail.net writes: > > > > << Anyone > > know of any pieces with names of flowers in their titles? >> > > > > The Yellow Rose of Texas :-) > > > > John > > Dallas/Houston, TX > > Good choice, and it has a wonderful petal solo! > > ...And a very nice tie-in to organ "Pizza" music which is best when it > is half-baked with a little flour! > > Stan > :-) > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: damaged pipes - X post From: JDeCaria@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 23:45:26 EDT   I want to thank everyone for their helpful advice on repairing those two ranks of pipes. Many people wrote with some very helpful tips. I can't respond to everyone individually, but here are some general observations based on the comments I received.   1) Ultimately, I realize that the best solution is to take them to an organbuilder for repair. This however is not within the scope of this project. I am rebuilding this organ gratis for the church on a very = limited budget, and there is just no room for this kind of expense.   2) Why don't the parents of these brats pay, you ask? So did I. I asked = the pastor of the parish, and the police as well. It turns out that the family = of the two siblings who clogged on my cornopeans is on welfare, so they don't =   have the cash to have them sent out to be repaired, even if we sued. The police scared the daylights out of the kids. After spending 30 mins handcuffed in the back of a police car, they'll be in therapy for years to =   come, so I'm satisfied (and grateful to the police for helping me to = teach those kids a lesson).   3) While I'm not even close to being an expert voicer, I do have some experience regulating ranks of pipes. Since the damage is confined to the ends of the resonators, I'm now confident in my ability to repair and tune =   them.   All I can say to everyone is THANK YOU!!!! on behalf of the parish. What a =   great resource these lists are!!   Joseph DeCaria Toronto  
(back) Subject: Re: damaged pipes - X post From: "David Enlow" <davenlow@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 04:35:21 GMT   Interesting happenings with those kids - you never told me. Phone me if you're up.   ------------------------- W. David Enlow 24 Dunedin Drive Toronto M8X 2K5 Telephone: (416) 231-4094 Facsimile: (416) 231-8764 davenlow@hotmail.com -------------------------     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organ popularity From: "Richard Scott-Copeland" <organist@gemshorn.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:55:16 +0100       >E.G. I would eagerly attend services during which several of you are playing >simply to hear the wonderful musical compositions you delight in describing. >Would I be welcomed in your sanctuaries? Or would I be ostracized by glaring >from the "regulars"? > >Stan Krider     Not as far as I am concerned, Stan - in my view, music of all types transcends all boundaries - religious, war, peace, happiness, black, = white, etc, etc. - you're more than welcome!   Richard Scott-Copeland Southampton, England.