PipeChat Digest #709 - Thursday, February 18, 1999
 
Queen of Sheba
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: Vatican II
  by "Adam and Christine Levin" <levins@westnet.com>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Ash Wednesday service list
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Re: Ash Wednesday service list
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Queen of Sheba
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Adam and Christine Levin" <levins@westnet.com>
Re: Vatican II and all organized religions
  by <Posthorn8@aol.com>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Vatican II
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
RE: Vatican II
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Vatican II
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Bach Works
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Re: March listings for "Orgelwerke" - WCNY-FM, Syracuse, New 	York (x-pos
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Atlantic City Convention Hall Organ
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Re: Vatican II
  by <Posthorn8@aol.com>
Re: Bach Works
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Vatican II
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Vatican II
  by <FireAlarmz@aol.com>
Re: Bach Works
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
 


(back) Subject: Queen of Sheba From: Margo Dillard <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:00:44 -0600   Does anyone have the music to the Arrival of the Queen of Sheba? I have ordered it, but the event when I would like to play it is this Sunday and the music store says it will not arrive in time. If you should have a copy, would you be willing to fax me one??   Thanks, Margo  
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:37:24 -0500 (EST)   On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 CHERCAPA@aol.com wrote: > of latin, and two years of a "modern language" French, gloried in the > magnificence of Palestrina, Montini, Mozart, and on and on, Vatican ll threw > everything , the baby and the bathwater, out the window. In its place we were > saddled with kumbaya and the other drivel and composers like Lucien Dies who, > I assume , has a pact with the devil to force as many Rc's out of the church > as he can. The Glory of Gabrielli, nor the Gregorian Chant of the Litany of > the Saints, nor the Easter Vigil, nor the Christmas Vigil, nor anything which > had to do with tradition, was kept. They then brought on the clowns and the > lutes, guitars, sitars, war drums of the Sahara, and other distracting sounds > to attract the devil himself to Divine worship. All for the sake of modernity.   Gosh, I'm glad I missed that. My wife is Catholic, my organ teacher works in a Catholic church. He got me to join their choir. While there *is* a contemporary group, it's because there are a significant number of people who want one. The Parish Choir, however, is not the contemporary ensemble, and we use only the organ, and we sing Mozart and Palestrina (I *love* Palestrina) and we do lots of chant. I think a lot of people have realized that the "modernizations" that Vatican II allowed (as far as I know they did not *require* but merely allowed and suggested) weren't necessarily wanted.   Of course, in our church the organist plays the full opening and closing hymns as well as prelude and postlude, and almost everybody stays at least until the end of the closing hymn. This parish uses the red Worship and blue Glory and Praise books, but at the 11am Mass when the choir sings, the blue book isn't touched.   And I'm not even a Catholic. :)   -Adam Rutherford, NJ USA Free speech online! _/ The Arkansas legislature once http://westnet.com/~levins/ ________/ enacted a law forbidding the <*> __________________________/ Arkansas River to rise higher than -O / the Main Street bridge in Little Rock.    
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:49:21 -0500   Yea...Vatican II was a horror show when it came out. Sadly, especially in America, the church never bothered to read it and just went beserk throwing everything out.   Happily, the pendulum seems to be swinging back to a middle ground. It is slow, no doubt, but it is swinging back.   Kumbaya everyone!!!!!   Charles E. Brown http://www.classicalcorner.com Please visit the website and join our mailing list    
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:11:35 -0700   > Kumbaya everyone!!!!! >   Gag! Choke! Urrrrp!   Say what you want about Pentecostal churches and their lack of musical heritage and tradition, but in the 20 + years I never once sang or played Kumbaya or Michael Row The Boat!   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Re: Ash Wednesday service list From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:15:30 EST   Dear Bud, Did you get the Ecce Sarcedos. Paul. ps. We started a humorous thread.  
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:25:47 -0500   I know what you mean. I find it amusing and interesting that some of that stuff has crept into several protestant churches.   Charles E. Brown http://www.classicalcorner.com Visit our web site and join our mailing list   > > Kumbaya everyone!!!!! > > > > Gag! Choke! Urrrrp! > > Say what you want about Pentecostal churches and their lack of musical > heritage and tradition, but in the 20 + years I never once sang or played > Kumbaya or Michael Row The Boat! > > Dennis > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Ash Wednesday service list From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:28:58 -0800   Paul - yes, thank you! And the 1940 is on the way as soon as the secretary gets it together ... she was a little fried this week. Hmm ... she's ALWAYS a LITTLE fried ... guess she was a LOT fried ... she's head of the Altar Guild, alto soloist in the church, and the church secretary. I ORDERED her to turn over the Altar Guild to somebody else, at least for Holy Week (actually, her HUSBAND ordered ME to order HER, before she has a nervous breakdown). Anyway, you'll get the Hymnal eventually (grin)!   Cheers,   Bud   P.S. - I still wanna know how they do "Bishop-of-Rome-first-among-equals" on that quarter note!   CHERCAPA@aol.com wrote:   > Dear Bud, Did you get the Ecce Sarcedos. Paul. ps. We started a humorous > thread. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: Queen of Sheba From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:32:26 -0800   On the First Sunday in LENT? What Lectionary are YOU using (grin)?   Bud   Margo Dillard wrote:   > Does anyone have the music to the Arrival of the Queen of Sheba? I have > ordered it, but the event when I would like to play it is this Sunday > and the music store says it will not arrive in time. If you should have > a copy, would you be willing to fax me one?? > > Thanks, > Margo > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:02:32 PST   >Say what you want about Pentecostal churches and their lack of >musical heritage and tradition, but in the 20 + years I never once >sang or played Kumbaya or Michael Row The Boat! > >Dennis     I'm afraid of what kind of thread this is going to turn into, but I just had to say something about it. I don't have a problem with the Pentecostal church's musical heritage, a couple of the churches I have gone to had very good choirs, and I was impressed. But what I do have a problem with, though, is some of the Pentecostal churches themselves. My fiancee is originally from the Assemblies of God, so I have had direct contact with their worship style. And I couldn't stand it! To me, it seemed as if it was a contest to see who could be "more filled" than the other. I know this is not true to all Pentecostal churches, and I believe that speaking in tongues is a gift from God and still occurs today. But what I have seen didn't seem real. Another thing is, I feel that charismatic denominations and even non-charismatic denominations with contemporary services that are charismatic, are looking for a quick fix. And they have all the "happy-Jesus" music you could ask for. But there is no such thing as a quick fix when it comes to our sinful nature. There are things about being a Christian (and I mean one who is firm in their faith) that are not pretty. We have been forgiven, true, but I believe that every now and again we still need to be reminded that we're sinful and don't deserve the gifts God has given us. The other extreme that I have seen in the Pentecostal denomination is of hellfire and brimstone, and Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (we got to read that sermon while I was in high school, it's kinda scary). This would scare me away! There is a balance in the middle there somewhere, but I haven't seen it in any of the Pentecostal churches I have gone to. Again, this is just an opinion coming from the stopped-up head of an 18 year old Lutheran who is fixed in his beliefs.   Oh, by the way, just got back from the doctor. He prescribed antibiotics and a decongestant. I think I might live after all! :-)   Chris Mullen   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: Adam and Christine Levin <levins@westnet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:09:17 -0500 (EST)   On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Chris Mullen wrote: > occurs today. But what I have seen didn't seem real. Another thing is, > I feel that charismatic denominations and even non-charismatic > denominations with contemporary services that are charismatic, are > looking for a quick fix. And they have all the "happy-Jesus" music you   This is getting far off-topic, but I wonder if any of the charismatics heard yesterday's Gospel reading -- when you pray, don't stand in the front row in the synagogues but go home and close the door.   -Adam   Rutherford, NJ USA Free speech online!_/ "I don't believe in reincarnation!" http://westnet.com/~levins/ _______/ SQUEAK. <*> __________________________/ And this, he understood with absolute rodent -O / clarity, meant: reincarnation believes in *you*.    
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II and all organized religions From: Posthorn8@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:19:44 EST   Last September I walked away from 22 years of being in piano and organ retail. I have sold both Allen & Rodgers. Through these years of working with wonderful (cough) compassionate (cough, cough) and caring (hack up flem) church committees, I have come to believe this....Church is this.... C.....carpeted H.....houses of U.....useless R.....rules and C.....conniving H.....hypocrites   I sold a Rodgers with Crown Principal rank to a church here in Rochester...That church "did me in". If the world ever needed an enema, I wouldn't hesitate to give the address of this church....   Tim  
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:06:03 -0700   > This is getting far off-topic, but I wonder if any of the charismatics > heard yesterday's Gospel reading -- when you pray, don't stand in the > front row in the synagogues but go home and close the door.   That wasn't the reading at St. Pauls, but I'm familiar with the passage. What's your point?   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:25:45 -0800   The Gospel for Ash Wednesday (at least in the old lectionary) is: St. Matthew 6:16ff ... in it, Jesus is warning the Apostles not to be like the religious establishment of the day, which took delight in public displays of "religiosity", while privately grinding down the poor and needy, etc. He says that God knows what we do in secret (i.e. good works without the adulation of men), and will reward us openly.   I think the point MIGHT be (without ANY intention of denigrating the charismatics) that the gifts of the Spirit come in different forms, not only being "slain in the Spirit" or speaking in tongues. Charismatic worship can get pretty rambunctious (again, not a criticism, just an observation) .... but the Spirit is equally present in the silence of a Quaker meeting, or the murmur of the weekday Low Mass. And, charismatic worship, like any kind of worship, liturgical or otherwise, can degenerate into form, rather than substance. If one dances in the Spirit for the sake of dancing in the Spirit and at the moving of the Spirit, then God is glorified; if one dances in the Spirit so other folks can see one dancing in the Spirit ... well, I think that's the connection with the Ash Wednesday Gospel.   Have I muddied the waters sufficiently (grin)?   Bud   Dennis Goward wrote:   > > This is getting far off-topic, but I wonder if any of the charismatics > > heard yesterday's Gospel reading -- when you pray, don't stand in the > > front row in the synagogues but go home and close the door. > > That wasn't the reading at St. Pauls, but I'm familiar with the passage. > What's your point? > > Dennis > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: Vatican II From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:35:32 -0700   > I think the point MIGHT be (without ANY intention of denigrating the > charismatics) that the gifts of the Spirit come in different > forms, not > only being "slain in the Spirit" or speaking in tongues.   I'm in agreement here. I personally think that some charismatics (such as the one I attend) go a little far out on a limb when they say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of baptisim in the spirit. According to what I read, tongues is A gift, not THE gift. It also says not everyone gets every gift, but different ones.   And yes, for all their fervor, some charismatics do get into a "look at me" kind of thing. But as you also noted, those kinds are everywhere.   D    
(back) Subject: Vatican II From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:48:00 -0500   I wonder what Jesus would say if He came to earth and saw the mockery man is making of His origional church.   Rick      
(back) Subject: Bach Works From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:23:08 -0500   Is there a big book or a series of books that contain most or all of Bach's works. I've got the Orgulbukelin (sp?), but I don't have the other pieces that I want.   Thanks, Jason Comet Junior in High School bombarde8@juno.com Begining Driver - Get off the streets! |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/13 C. E. Morey/Knapton/Raville organ O 7 member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Re: March listings for "Orgelwerke" - WCNY-FM, Syracuse, New York (x-posted) From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:15:12 -0500   ``Orgelwerke'' over Classic FM >(WCNY-FM, >91.3, Syracuse; WUNY-FM, 89.5, Utica; and WJNY-FM, 90.9, Watertown) - >Sundays - 8pm-9pm.   Kewl! I'll tune in! (If I can get it from the bunker that I have for a room (basement).   Jason Comet Junior in High School bombarde8@juno.com Begining Driver - Get off the streets! |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/13 C. E. Morey/Knapton/Raville organ O 7 member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Atlantic City Convention Hall Organ From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:20:57 -0500   Has the Combination System on the organ been repaired? Has the Paper machei Bassoon decomposed yet? What is heppening with it? I've heard that the Convention hall hasen't done much to repair it, but then I've heard that they have a "Society" to raise funds for it and hired several builders/technicians to help rebuild/repaire it. I would be interested to know what is going on with it. I might talk my parents into taking me into the ACCHO and The Grand Court Organ in Wanamakers.   Thanks, Jason Comet Junior in High School bombarde8@juno.com Begining Driver - Get off the streets! |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/13 C. E. Morey/Knapton/Raville organ O 7 member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II From: Posthorn8@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:14:45 EST   >>I wonder what Jesus would say if He came to earth and saw the mockery man is making of His origional church.<<   Jesus does see His church here on earth.....I'm sure it must greive Him....So many people wanting "the fix"....I call it spiritual masturbation.....   They want the euphoric feeling without the commitment .......I should know...I grew up in that enviroment. My mother is the worst offender.   Tim  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach Works From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:19:12 -0800   Jason - there are several: Widor-Schweitzer (G. Schirmer), 8 volumes, about $25 apiece ... to my way of thinking, the easiest to read. Peters (C.F. Peters Corp.), Kalmus (reprint of Peters, cheaper), Neue Bach Ausgabe (beautiful engraving, but expensive), Dupre (heavily edited, fingered and pedalled ... useful for working out difficult passages, but not much of a performance edition); also, Dover Reprints has brought out at least some of the organworks, reprinted from the (old) Bach Gesellschaft ... the original was beautifully-done, but Dover has shrunk the print, making them useful mostly for reference, rather than performance.   Those are the basic ones, plus the Riemenschneider Orgelbuechlein and Clavieruebung ... those are good because they have Bach's harmonizations of the chorales, and not just the melody lines and texts. I don't recall if any of the other editions include the chorale-melodies ... list?   Cheers,   Bud   Jason D. Comet wrote:   > Is there a big book or a series of books that contain most or all of > Bach's works. I've got the Orgulbukelin (sp?), but I don't have the > other pieces that I want. > > Thanks, > Jason Comet > Junior in High School > bombarde8@juno.com Begining Driver - Get off the streets! > |\ Organist/Choir Director > | | 2/13 C. E. Morey/Knapton/Raville organ > O 7 member choir > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:30:41 -0800         > I wonder what Jesus would say if He came to earth and saw the mockery man is > making of His origional church. > > Rick   I have made the comment many times that Our Lord would probably be more at home in one of those exuberant store-front churches in East L.A. than he would be at the High Mass at St. Matthew's ... BUT, there is a kind of reverse arrogance / judgmental stance in that statement, for the simple reason that I am not in a position to judge the state of ANYONE else's soul but my own. For all I know, some of the great saints of the 20th century may kneel at our communion rail; and the perceived holiness of a storefront church may be just that: perceived.   As Earnest Young Rector remarked on Sexagesima Sunday (Gospel: St. Luke 8:4ff), Jesus was remarkable resigned to the fact that not everbody was going to hear his message, and/or get it right. He had to explain the parable of the seed and the sower to his own disciples, who should have had the wit to grasp it on first hearing.   We should also take care to heed the words of the Gospel for Quinquagesima Sunday (St. Matthew 20:1ff) ... church musicians are, for the most part, woefully underpaid; but we agree to our wages. If we do not run joyfully to the service of God FOR THE SAKE OF GOD, then, well, there are lots of KILLER computer jobs out there, and organists have GOOD hand-eye coordination (grin).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Vatican II From: FireAlarmz@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:56:22 EST   << until the end of the closing hymn. This parish uses the red Worship and blue Glory and Praise books, but at the 11am Mass when the choir sings, the blue book isn't touched. And I'm not even a Catholic. :) -Adam >>   You must have a *very* fortunate church thar! My wife goes to the largest church in the Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia (it has many thousands of members) and the musical offerings are unworthy of a 50-member Protestant church in a low-income farm area. They had at one point an artistic-minded nun as Pastoral Musician, but in effect harassed her out of a job.   See "Why Catholics Can't Sing"   Great thread!!~ Bill Miller  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach Works From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:11:42 PST   >Is there a big book or a series of books that contain most or all of >Bach's works. I've got the Orgulbukelin (sp?), but I don't have the >other pieces that I want. > >Thanks, >Jason Comet > > Yes there is. It's called The Complete Works of Bach. You can get them in many different editions, but I'd recommend Kalmus, there are no pedal markings or fingerings in them, so you can write your own, and they're relatively inexpensive. There are 9 volumes in the set. And by the way, it's Orgelbuchlein (I think ;-)   Chris Mullen   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com