PipeChat Digest #673 - Tuesday, January 26, 1999
 
Re: Music Directors
  by "mreeves@vzinet.com" <mreeves@vzinet.com>
Re: Music Directors
  by <Hitkmus@aol.com>
I need support...
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: Music Directors
  by "mreeves@vzinet.com" <mreeves@vzinet.com>
Dogs
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
Re: Music Directors
  by "MR SAND   LAWN" <KWQT65A@prodigy.com>
Church Musicians
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
Re:  I need help
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
Re: I need support...
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: I need support...
  by "William Lengyel" <theorganist@webtv.net>
Re: Music Directors
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
RE: I need support...
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
X-Post--Organ for Sale
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Music Directors
  by "Jim H" <BALD1@prodigy.net>
Re: I need support...
  by "Jim H" <BALD1@prodigy.net>
Re: I need support...
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: I need support...
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
RE: I need support...
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: I need support...
  by <WRansomeJr@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: mreeves@vzinet.com (mreeves@vzinet.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:48:05 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Mullen <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>   >Dear List: > >Are there any of you out there that are full-time church music >directors?? Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod especially?? I am a student >at Concordia University-Seward, Nebraska and I'm studying to be a full >time church musician, and I'd kinda like to know what I'm getting myself >into. If anyone can help me out by telling me exactly what I'm supposed >to as a music director, I'd appreciate it greatly! > >Chris Mullen >   Hello, Chris;   In my district of the UMC, there are only 2 full-time music director positions. I have one of them, but it was only recently created. I've found through private, long-term, diligent research, that it depends primarily on the denomination you are in. Baptists, for the most part, do attempt to take care of their "full-time" personnel. I found that a Music Director position of similar responsibility and program size, in a Baptist church (here in the South), would pay double (at least) what a UM Church would pay. As a Methodist myself, I am embarrassed by this, but, it doesn't make it any less true.   Methodists, seem to be extremely frugal (no pun intended). So, unless a person happens into a top-notch job in the UM church, it takes "LONG-TERM" Tenure to get the kind of pay that one actually deserves.   The UCC (United Churches of Christ) has some excellent guidelines for musician pay, as does the American Guild of Organists.   My recommendation is that you search the databases of your desired denomination for a hint of church salary guidelines. And, call your denominational churches and talk, personally, with Music directors...I think most of them will be glad to help, if you can catch them in the office.   I don't have an office anymore, it had to be relinquished for a Sunday School Class, which is fine, I can stay home more. :)   Respectfully, +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mark Reeves, Director of Music, Organist First United Methodist Church Canton, Texas +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: Hitkmus@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:47:05 EST   And let's just hope that ministry will not be in an inclusive-language congregation...you'll need to severely curb your tongue with the male-God image.   Lynda Alexander First Pres Palo Alto  
(back) Subject: I need support... From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:56:55 -0600     Hi friends! I read almost every day but seldom ever post. I hope you can become a support group for me during a difficult time. I resigned my position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church tonight. To make a long story short, this church celebrates its 125th anniversary this year and has a rich musical tradition that has waned somewhat in recent years (We have a III/40 Wicks, recently rebuilt by R.A. Colby). We have a husband/wife pastoral team who firmly believe that a...oh, I hate to use the word..."contemporary" worship service is the only way to go for church growth and a complete spiritual experience. Our choir director and I are both graduate students in a Master of Church Music Program closeby. He also resigned last week.   My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with this...am I wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I completely blind to the needs of current congregations? I want only to return to the God who gave us such an incredible gift as music the very best fruits of that gift.   Thanks for listening!   Mark    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: mreeves@vzinet.com (mreeves@vzinet.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:57:23 -0600   I saw the humor, but, some people are more serious minded than others.   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mark Reeves, Director of Music, Organist First United Methodist Church Canton, Texas +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++       >It was written: > >>OMG!!!! Couldnt any one else besides me see that Nelson's answer was >very >>"tongue in cheek" Have we become so "politically correct" that we >cannot >>tolerate any wry humour????? >> >>--Roc > > >I saw very little humor in what was written there. All I did was ask >for some information, and it was almost if he were trying to dissuade me >from the job just because there is no "fortune and fame" in it. That is >NOT what matters as far as church music is concerned. As a parish >musician, I will NOT be working for the congregation, or the board of >elders, or the pastor himself. I will be working for GOD, the most >important employer of all. He gives me life and breath, and all that I >need. THAT my friend is what matters. > >Chris Mullen > >"You know you're a music major when the members of your graduating class >were freshmen when you were a senior" > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Dogs From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:51:27 PST   John wrote:   A while ago I read a book about dogs (Bruce Cornely will appreciate this!) though I must confess to having forgotten the author and the name of the book. Anyway the author had done a great deal of research and had determined that what most dogs crave for is not power, or sex, or anything else, but rather the respect of other dogs. I suspect that most humans are the same as dogs, and that what most of us crave is not power or money, but to be appreciated and respected by our fellow human beings. I think that even if great riches are not possible for organists or organ builders, what we most desire is something that is well within the realm of the possible.   John.   I have to agree with you John, although my interest doesn't go just as far as being respected. I desired to do God's work here on Earth, no matter if I am respected or not. Respect of others would be nice, but as long as I can please my Maker, that is all I am concerned of.   Chris Mullen   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: KWQT65A@prodigy.com (MR SAND LAWN) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:58:51, -0500   I work in an inclusive language congregation and have never been happier! An intelligent congregation that really appreciates good music, most would leave if a singer picked up a microphone! Chris.. you certainly got a lot of people ready to reply... <g>   Sand Lawn  
(back) Subject: Church Musicians From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:03:32 PST   Dear Mark and List:   Thank you for your comments! I appreciate them very much. I am a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and I intend to stay in the denomination throughout my career. I am not sure of the pay rates for full time musicians, but I intend to get in touch with the Synod office to find out. I also hope to get the names and phone numbers of some music directors within the Synod. I do understand that some churches pay more than others, but I hope to find a place where I am happy and have a music department worth working with. But God is the most important part of the equation. As long as I feel I'm doing His work, that's what I'm concerned with. Thanks again for the comments!   Chris Mullen   "You know you're a music major when the members of your graduating class were freshmen when you were a senior"   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: I need help From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:13:16 PST   Mark wrote:   My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with this...am I wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I completely blind to the needs of current congregations? I want only to return to the God who gave us such an incredible gift as music the very best fruits of that gift. Thanks for listening! Mark   Mark:   I'm sorry to hear about what happened!! I can understand completely what you are going through. I'm a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and am going into full time church work in the music field. As you may (or may not) know, the LCMS has been VERY strongly rooted in it's practice of a traditional service, including anthems and hymnody. Recently, I am seeing a slight shift in this belief to a more contemporary style of worship. It hasn't spread rampantly in our denomination as of yet, but it is becoming more popular. You are not blind to the needs of the modern congregation. Some people just prefer the contemporary style of worship. But it is my personal belief that some churches are grasping this idea of "contemporary" worship just to bring more people in the doors of the church to fill the church coffers. This is NOT right. I hope that this is not the practice of the LCMS churches that are practicing this. But, I believe that if you feel that your calling is church music, you should take another position and develop it into something rich and God-pleasing. Again, I am deeply sorry to hear of your current situation.   Chris Mullen   "You know you're a music major when the members of your graduating class were freshmen when you were a senior"   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: DudelK@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:31:54 EST   In a message dated 99-01-26 00:56:54 EST, you write:   << My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with this...am I wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I completely blind to the needs of current congregations? >>   Absolutely not! This has been discussed and analyzed ad nauseam on these lists over the time I've been on them. Perhaps the most that can be hoped for is some kind of peaceful co-existence between the tried and true and the totally trendy, just as fine restaurants continue to exist along with fast-food outlets, purveyors of quality merchandise continue to flourish along with discount outlets, and so on. Every now and again a real ray of hope emerges, as was the case when I visited the Cathedral of the Madeleine in Salt Lake City during the recent Mormon Tabernacle Classic Organ Symposium. Rather than feeding the kids a diet of happy-clappy, they have established a coed choir school and have attained an enviable standard of excellence in a relatively short time, thanks to gifted and dedicated musicians and supportive clergy (as well as a magnificent building with great acoustics and a fine organ). There will always be those who will appreciate quality -- we just may not be in the majority. Don't give up the struggle -- it's worth the effort!  
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: theorganist@webtv.net (William Lengyel) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:41:45 -0500 (EST)   To the post by DudelK, I say BRAVO!   Bill    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:53:10 -0800   You'll probably fare better in the LCMS than most of us ... full-time positions in the Episcopal/Anglican church are evaporating at an alarming rate. I have one; be prepared to live in genteel poverty at best (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   P.S. - I tried making lots of money in corporate America ... HATED it, went back to church music.   Chris Mullen wrote:   > Dear List: > > Are there any of you out there that are full-time church music > directors?? Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod especially?? I am a student > at Concordia University-Seward, Nebraska and I'm studying to be a full > time church musician, and I'd kinda like to know what I'm getting myself > into. If anyone can help me out by telling me exactly what I'm supposed > to as a music director, I'd appreciate it greatly! > > Chris Mullen > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: I need support... From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:17:21 -0700     > My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with > this...am I > wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and > hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I > completely blind > to the needs of current congregations? I want only to return to the God > who gave us such an incredible gift as music the very best fruits of that > gift.   Let me say first that I like a lot of the CCM. I worship every week with a church that is exclusively CCM, wouldn't know a hymnal if it bit them. However, I serve a traditional Lutheran congregation. Is there something odd here?   I think that to throw out the traditional body of church music in favor of the "now" thing is just as wrong as to ignore the new music. While the people may like the new stuff, and worship may thrive for a while on it, you need the base of the "well-written anthems and hymnody" that Mark mentions. "Clap and sway" as I call it can only do so much. Nothing can take the place of full organ and choirs with the congregation on something like "All Creatures of our God and King" or "Once to every Man and Nation".   Like I said, I worship with a CCM congregation, and I serve with the talents God gave me in a traditional setting. I'll add some quality contemporary to the traditional. But displace it? To quote the apostle Paul, "God Forbid".   There are places for you to serve, Mark. Sometimes pastors take a congregation in a different direction, but the people will ultimately go where they want to go, and will worship God in the way that is best for them.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: X-Post--Organ for Sale From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:29:51 -0700   Got a Rodgers 321A Trio for sale with the metal bar glock and two tone cabinets. Dark Wood. Looking for $2500 OBO. Organ is in Phoenix.   Dennis Goward   Personal: http://desertsoft.net/personal Business: http://www.desertsoft.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: Jim H <BALD1@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:10:35 -0600   Chris Mullen wrote: > > Dear List: > > Are there any of you out there that are full-time church music > directors?? Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod especially?? Big Snip     Chris   I wish you well my friend. Unfortunately, most of the churches depend upon volunteer or part timers to fill the music directors slots. I just filled a questionaire put out by Synod, which asked if the congregation was using a worship committee in determining the weekly hymnody.   Search for your rewards in the connection between God and you at the manuals. To the best of my knowledge, (37 years) there are few positions open that will put beans on the table. But who knows, God may have a pleasant surprise in store.   Jim H   Jim H.      
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: Jim H <BALD1@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:23:29 -0600   Mark Hopper wrote: > > I resigned my > position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) > Church tonight.   Gee Mark, sorry to hear that. While I happen to agree with you 100% on traditional values and yes, I am one of the old fogies that does not believe in "Contemporary" worship, I also believe that you cannot fight battles by not participating.   There is a group in my church that wish to do contemporary as well. I have found that with just a little give without compromise can make everyone happy and everyone wins. I have often wanted to quit. usually, all I need to do is speak to the Elders or a few members of the congregation to encourage their support, and we remain on track.   While LCMS pastors carry a lot of weight in how the service is delivered, they are not the ultimate and final word. Maybe that will help you some.   Jim H.    
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:47:58 -0600   To Jim H -   Unfortunately, I did participate in this "battle" for five months and made no headway whatsoever. I decided to look for somewhere I can be of use.   -Mark   mahopper@bigfoot.com   -----Original Message----- From: Jim H <BALD1@prodigy.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 1:35 AM Subject: Re: I need support...     >Mark Hopper wrote: >> >> I resigned my >> position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) >> Church tonight. > >Gee Mark, sorry to hear that. While I happen to agree with you 100% on >traditional values and yes, I am one of the old fogies that does not >believe in "Contemporary" worship, I also believe that you cannot fight >battles by not participating. > >There is a group in my church that wish to do contemporary as well. I >have found that with just a little give without compromise can make >everyone happy and everyone wins. I have often wanted to quit. >usually, all I need to do is speak to the Elders or a few members of the >congregation to encourage their support, and we remain on track. > >While LCMS pastors carry a lot of weight in how the service is >delivered, they are not the ultimate and final word. Maybe that will >help you some. > >Jim H. > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:50:53 -0600   Thanks, Dennis. I agree completely. Style is not an issue for me--quality and theology are. Why do we always ask stylistic questions before asking theological ones?   Thanks for prompting my clarification of my stance.   -Mark   mahopper@bigfoot.com -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Goward <dgoward@uswest.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 1:18 AM Subject: RE: I need support...     > >> My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with >> this...am I >> wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and >> hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I >> completely blind >> to the needs of current congregations? I want only to return to the God >> who gave us such an incredible gift as music the very best fruits of that >> gift. > >Let me say first that I like a lot of the CCM. I worship every week with a >church that is exclusively CCM, wouldn't know a hymnal if it bit them. >However, I serve a traditional Lutheran congregation. Is there something >odd here? > >I think that to throw out the traditional body of church music in favor of >the "now" thing is just as wrong as to ignore the new music. While the >people may like the new stuff, and worship may thrive for a while on it, you >need the base of the "well-written anthems and hymnody" that Mark mentions. >"Clap and sway" as I call it can only do so much. Nothing can take the >place of full organ and choirs with the congregation on something like "All >Creatures of our God and King" or "Once to every Man and Nation". > >Like I said, I worship with a CCM congregation, and I serve with the talents >God gave me in a traditional setting. I'll add some quality contemporary to >the traditional. But displace it? To quote the apostle Paul, "God Forbid". > >There are places for you to serve, Mark. Sometimes pastors take a >congregation in a different direction, but the people will ultimately go >where they want to go, and will worship God in the way that is best for >them. > >Dennis Goward > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: RE: I need support... From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:54:47 -0700   > Unfortunately, I did participate in this "battle" for five months and made > no headway whatsoever. I decided to look for somewhere I can be of use. >   Sometimes you have to "vote with your feet". You probably did the best thing here. If you can't wholeheartedly support what the pastor's doing, even if you feel it's not what's best, then leaving is the wiser choice. Better to leave on your terms with your reputation intact, then at a pastor's request with a tarnished one.   I think a lot of these moves to extremes (throwing out everything in favor of one narrow genre) will eventually come back, like a pendulum. I really believe that there's room for all sincere expression of worship in the church, and I think it is a disservice to tell a congregation its either all this or all that. Pretty soon, the congregation will vote with their feet, too.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: WRansomeJr@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:16:00 EST   In a message dated 1/25/99 9:56:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, mahopper@bellsouth.net writes:   > > My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with this...am I > wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and > hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Am I completely blind > to the needs of current congregations? I want only to return to the God > who gave us such an incredible gift as music the very best fruits of that > gift. >   I think that there is definitely a "comfortable" place for alternative worship styles in many churches. But when ANY of us decides that we want to focus on growth and money rather than tradition, good taste and common sense - is that being a good Christian or good business person?   In my first Episcopal position we had a fairly formal Sunday liturgy with gospel processions, incense on occasion good hymnody, etc. It wasn't the least bit cold or stodgy. We even attracted a lot of professionals in the "pop" world (Muscle Shoals, AL in the past was where LOTS of famous people came to record) Three Lynard Skynard band members were Episcopalians and often attended Grace when they were in town.   On Wed. night we had a very informal "Prayer and Praise" service with "renewal" music played on a rolled in piano, and then a very simple rite II communion with holy unction. As a classical musician I found that this was a wonderful worship time and completely different from the higher Sunday service. NO BODY ever wanted to give up our traditional service in exchange for this more "folksy" service, but it was popular.   At Christ Church, Los Altos, CA, where I am now we are "fixing" to do the same sort of thing on Sunday evening (not my idea, but I'm happy about it) We have a choral Eucharist on Sunday morning with two anthems and anglican chant for the psalm. The priest chants the sursum corda. There is certianly room for both! I would be really distressed if we were to give up our traditional service though. But it will never happen here, thank the Lord!   In other words. I think your reason for leaving is the right thing for you, but I hate to see a mis understanding. It isn't alternative worship that is a problem, it is when we as pastors and musicians totally disregard our pasts - Even Jesus said it - "I come not to destroy the law, but to complete it" (loooosly quoted) Do I make ANY sense?   RT