PipeChat Digest #677 - Tuesday, January 26, 1999
 
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net>
Re: Music Directors
  by <Afreed0904@aol.com>
Re: Music Directors
  by "JeffWinSTL" <Reedstop@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Bruton Parish Church
  by "Robert Mayo" <rmayo@erols.com>
Re: I need help
  by "JeffWinSTL" <Reedstop@worldnet.att.net>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: I need support...
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
RE: I need support...
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
worship music
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re:  I need help
  by "Travis Evans" <tle6399@seward.cune.edu>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: I need support...
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: Music Directors
  by "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com>
Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)
  by <ROBIN88866@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:22:34 EST   Charles---its you You have taken quotes from at least 2 if not three different persons and attributed them to one person...you woud have needed to follow this thread from its very beginnings sometime in the wee hours of last nite.   Regards,   --Roc  
(back) Subject: RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:48:52 -0500   Roc:   I just checked...I don't think so!!! They are all from ScotFrop@aol.com.   Dr. Charles Brown   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > GRSCoLVR@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:23 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) > > > Charles---its you > You have taken quotes from at least 2 if not three different persons and > attributed them to one person...you woud have needed to follow this thread > from its very beginnings sometime in the wee hours of last nite. > > Regards, > > --Roc > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: "Charles Brown" <clmoney@cybernex.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:53:41 -0500   MY APOLOGIES TO SCOTT!!!!!!   Now I see what happened!!!!!!   I didn't realize that you were just cutting from other postings....I thought YOU resigned...   My apologies to Roc also...   But I still stand behind my feelings about contemporary worship!!!!   Charles   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > GRSCoLVR@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:23 PM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) > > > Charles---its you > You have taken quotes from at least 2 if not three different persons and > attributed them to one person...you woud have needed to follow this thread > from its very beginnings sometime in the wee hours of last nite. > > Regards, > > --Roc > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: Afreed0904@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:26:07 EST     In a message dated 1/26/99 12:09:11 AM, nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com writes:   >If they are so unhappy with their >"lot in life",   Who said anything about "unhappy"?   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: "JeffWinSTL" <Reedstop@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:37:20 -0600   >OMG!!!! Couldnt any one else besides me see that Nelson's answer was very >"tongue in cheek" Have we become so "politically correct" that we cannot >tolerate any wry humour?????     This is where emot-icons or even things like <GRIN> help us to know you're kidding as opposed to being serious. I, like others, read that to be a rebut against going into church music. Hence, my posting. If the intent was humor, then I'm sorry if my response seemed heated. But, I meant what I said, all the same. We need to be sure to NOT dissuade the young musicians who have the desire to enter a field that isn't bring many in the door, especially in the LCMS. For example, I was the last student organist at Lutheran High School South in St. Louis, and that was back in 1985!   I still wish these two fellas the best of luck. I've known a number of directors of music who live just fine. God will bless! :)   Best of regards, Jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: Bruton Parish Church From: Robert Mayo <rmayo@erols.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:33:19 -0800   The G. Donald Harrison Aeolian-Skinner at Bruton was completely renovated about two years ago. It has always been a 4-manual behemoth. It's a marvel of physics. All the pipes, except the antiphonal, are located in the attic of the church and the sound is directed to the sanctuary through grills in the ceiling. It's amazing. I accompany our choir there every Christmas. The acoustics and ambiance always produce a spiritual experience for us. I don't have the specs at my fingertips, but you could e-mail Dr. JanEl Gortmaker, one of Bruton's organists, at <jgortmak@tni.net> She might have the specs handy. (She might even be reading this post!)   Bob Mayo  
(back) Subject: Re: I need help From: "JeffWinSTL" <Reedstop@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:46:38 -0600   >Some people just prefer the contemporary style of worship. But it is my >personal belief that some churches are grasping this idea of >"contemporary" worship just to bring more people in the doors of the >church to fill the church coffers   Well, I'm not sure about that, but in several St. Louis churches, it IS bringing people to worship regardless. However, I'm not an advocating its use soley on Sunday morning. I believe there is a need for keeping traditional as well. I've seen churches use blended services, and to be honest, this is probably the best way. Although, I think at least one service should be strictly traditional. My former home congregation has traditional at 8, blended at 9:30, and more contemporary at 11 (or used to). It seemed to work well. I agree, though, that bringing people in just to fill the offering plate.....let's keep our priorities in line!! :)   Jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:57:42 -0800   Here's where we need the airport designations, or whatever ... there are TWO Scotts (grin).   Bud   Charles Brown wrote:   > Scott: > > Now you have me thoroughly confused!!! > > you said in your fist post: > > I resigned my > position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) > Church tonight. > > You further said: > > Our choir > director and I are both graduate students in a Master of Church Music > Program closeby. He also resigned last week. > > And in your last post you said: > > I don't recall having quit anything, nothing at all. They are part of the > program and I look out for that. But- they are a PART of the overall > program. > > Which is it??????? > > Charles > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:09:19 -0800       George Husson wrote:   > I was also at the Second American Classic Organ Symposium in Salt Lake > City last week and had the chance to visit the Cathedral of the > Madeleine as well. What "DudelK" says is true: this church did a > really nice job of mixing the old with the new. The prelude and > postlude were both Buxtehude (not sure if he actually played the > Buxtehude at the beginning); the opening hymn was "Songs of Thankfulness > and Praise," well known to Episcopalians and becoming better known to > Catholics but nonetheless traditional. At communion we sang Richard > Proulx's, "I received the living God," definitely in a contemporary vein > but still contemplative. There was chant here and there, with a > traditional closing hymn.   I'd say that all falls within the parameters of serious, solid church music, contemporary or otherwise.   > What has made me successful in music ministry is to try to mix a little > of both old and new together. If we are ministers then we need to make > sure that what we're doing musically "speaks" to as many as possible in > our congregations; to be that inspiration to bring them closer to > Christ. I think this is done with Mozart's "Ave Verum" as well as > "Shine, Jesus Shine." It's in knowing when and how much of each to put > into the mix.   I hope I don't live long enough to hear the two sung IN THE SAME MASS. If there is a legitimate group of people who want contemporary music (whatever THAT means), then by all means add a Mass for them, as Scott (F.) has done at Little Flower. But I have seen too many programs go down the tubes when the clergy insisted on MIXING the two. Invariably, the traditional music gets pushed out. In one parish I served, the High Mass with choir and organ had been relegated to 8 a.m. ... the two late Masses each had their own bands.   > It is great to hear of what is successful in each of your church > situations. Keep writing. > > --George Husson > Director of Music & Liturgy > St. Sebastian the Martyr Catholic Church > Greenbrae (San Franciso), California >   A friend of mine had a large and prosperous program in an unlikely place, a Navy chapel. A music-conscious Senior Chaplain had replaced the Supply Issue Hammond with a large Allen. There was money for singers, and instrumentalists. The 5:30 p.m. Saturday Mass was traditional, with choir and organ (and the occasional Latin Ordinary with instruments on feast days). It was standing room only. The early Mass on Sunday was organ and cantor; the Protestant service was basically Evangelical, with piano and organ; the late Mass on Sunday was contemporary, some organ accompaniments, some keyboard, and some instrumentalists, when he could get them.   Everybody was happy and the program was prospering. But as it happens in the Navy, there was a change of Senior Chaplains and the whole thing went out the window in less than a month. The following Fall, my friend's bid for the contract was refused (Navy organists have to bid for chapel positions every year). They hired someone who didn't know how to use the pedals on the Allen. The 5:30 Saturday congregation decamped to the local civilian Catholic church, which has a decent pipe organ and choir. And that was the end of that. Now they sing Glory and Praise at all Masses, and the church is 2/3 empty. So much for ministering to the needs of the people.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: RE: I need support... From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:17:35 -0700   > But I have seen too many programs go down the tubes when > the clergy insisted on MIXING the two.   The church where I serve has two hymals, the LBW and The Other Song Book (seriously, that's the title of it). While LBW is one of the latest incarnations of the traditional hymal/service book that has been with the Lutheran church since Luther, The Other Song Book is a mix of what would be called CCM, Camp songs, and good ol' Gospel.   We do mix selections from either book in a service. Like this Sunday, the Opener and the sermon hymn come from LBW; everything after that, from TOSB. Even so, the order of service is traditional Lutheran.   I guess this particular congregation has a more varied heritage -- not too many "Lutherans since before the Lord walked the earth", but a lot of first and second generation Lutherans. It seems to work. I guess it helps that their minister of music (me) is a heretic backslidden LCA Lutheran who hangs out with Pentecostals :-)   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: worship music From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:56 -0500   Hi, Friends... I had a wonderful experience today. I arrived at our (Indiana) country church this morning, where I am installing a 2m 4r Wicks. I parked my truck along- side the church, and upon getting out, I heard the organ playing. The organist's car was parked at the other end of the lot, so I knew who it was playing. This woman, bless her heart, is as old as the hills, and very stuck in her ways. She had an absolute FIT when I played her Baldwin at the church. Prior to this, she had been nosing around the Wicks asking questions and making comments. Well, me being one to always try to mend fences (country jargon), I answered her questions, and encouraged her to sit down and play it. ..."Well, maybe one day when no one is listening..." was her leary response. Well, Praise the Lord, today was one of those days. I tip-toed in, like the 120 lb. little guy I am, and just listened to her making beautiful music on something she, at first, had scowled. After several hymns, she finally spotted me, and stopped with a start (?). I said to her to keep playing, that it was very nice. Well, the ice was broken, and we laughed and talked some more. I suspect from now on her beloved Baldwin will be gathering dust, while she gets used to the pipe. Just thought I'd pass along a little sunshine to everyone on a typical gray January Indiana day.   Rick Veague dutchorgan@svs.net    
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:10:01 -0600   Wow! Someone actually mentioned my idol on an organ list! Life is absolutely scary!   Glenda Sutton   ---------- > From: ROBIN88866@aol.com > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 11:35 AM > > In a message dated 99-01-26 12:23:54 EST, you write: > > << At one time even dear old JS himself was > contemporary!!!!!!!!! > >> > > If J.S. Bach were alive today, he would be a jazz musician in the class of > Oscar Peterson. > > Robin    
(back) Subject: Re: I need help From: Travis Evans <tle6399@seward.cune.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:39:19 -0500 (CDT)   I have to agree with the attendance between traditional servcies and 'Contemporary' servcie. The church I attend here at school, which is LCMS, when I am not playing somewhere else, or singing in choir, has 3 services every Sunday. The 7:30 and 9:00 services being traditional, and the 11:15 Contemporary. I have seen the 9 a.m. servcie almost to capacity around 900 people. The one and only time I went to the 11:15 service, there might have been between 200 - 300 people, a far cry from the tradional service.   Travis Evans   tle6399@seward.cune.edu   "When I hear music, I fear no evil"   > I am also an organist of a small, but rapidly growing LCMS congregation. We > noticed that indeed, there is some interest in having comtemporary music but > never letting go of the traditional elements, because being in Georgia, > surrounded by Baptist churches on every corner, we believe that the > traditional aspect is what people come to the LCMS for. So, our solution was > to start an earlier contemporary service. We thought that the two services > would be about equal in attendance. Well, we were a little off. First > service - 10-12 people. Second, traditional service - around 100 people a > service (a large jump from 60 in 1993)    
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:02:27 EST   In a message dated 1/26/99 3:52:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, clmoney@cybernex.net writes:   << Roc: I just checked...I don't think so!!! They are all from ScotFrop@aol.com. Dr. Charles Brown >>     NO THEY ARE NOT SIR!!!!!!!!!   Scott Foppiano (who RESPONDED to Mark Hoper's original post entitled "I need support")  
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:58:38 EST   In a message dated 1/26/99 2:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, clmoney@cybernex.net writes:   << Now you have me thoroughly confused!!! you said in your fist post: I resigned my position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church tonight. You further said: Our choir director and I are both graduate students in a Master of Church Music Program closeby. He also resigned last week. And in your last post you said: I don't recall having quit anything, nothing at all. They are part of the program and I look out for that. But- they are a PART of the overall program. Which is it??????? >>     Mark Hopper, a friend or mine from college, sent the original "I need support" posting yesterday. HE and his choir director quit their jobs, not me. I was RESPONDING to his original post.   Scott  
(back) Subject: Re: I need support... From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:24 -0600   This weekend's posts were just downright overwhelming. That's the last time I leave my email unchecked for a few days.   >My question is...and I hope to stir up a little discussion with this...am I >wrong to be so solidly convicted that quality, well-written anthems and >hymnody leads to a more authentic worship experience? Yes. If it were simply a matter of quality anthems and well-written hymnody, the church could simply sit back and coast along on the oeuvre of the likes of Wesley and Watts. There is no shortage of good music (both old and new). There is, however, a shortage of people who can give that music an inspiring and uplifting realization. Simply changing the style of music is pretty much irrelevant. If the music is not being given a good run, then it won't make any difference if you're singing Weelkes or Amy Grant...   >Am I completely blind >to the needs of current congregations? Probably not, though many congregations are often blind to their own needs. They know that something is missing, but usually lack the vocabulary to express what they're looking for in music. Our job is to help them determine what they really need, and give them options. Rejecting their complaints out of hand and dismissing CCM as "happy-clappy" is a good way to get fired. An example... The general gist of people's arguments in favor of praise music is that they want something with a beat. Here are two possible scenarios...   A. ...the organist responds by dismissing their requests for rhythmic and upbeat music as "trivializing" to the worship. Said organist is then canned, and the congregation rushes out to buy a trap set. Stuck with this investment, the organ remains silent and the congregation is at the mercy of an instrument that is overpowering, played by one person who may not necessarily have solid rhythm or experience in leading song, and largely limited in repertoire.   B. ...the organist works with their idea, but a knows straight off that a trap set is not necessarily the best musical investment for the church. He suggests that, instead of getting a trap set and leaving the congregational singing at the mercy of one lay drummer...that the music would be better served by investing in a set of quality African hand percussion. This gets more people involved (and is often more attractive to men than singing in a choir...only sissies sing in choirs! ;-), is more reliable than one drummer, sounds better, and is far more versatile than a trap set. The organist now looks like a genius, the music budget is increased, and peace reigns throughout the land.   OK, I did make this up...but you all get the gist, no?   The trick is to work with their requests! The only way to guide things like this is from the inside. When a congregation starts grumbling for upbeat music, there's great danger...but also a great opportunity. It shows that they're a congregation that is very much INTERESTED in music and its role in worship (which is not always a given!). Therein is our chance to get some real work done.   Cheers, Rob, who is still recovering from the onslaught of 75 messages   "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." - Machiavelli      
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:10:00 -0600   Dr. Brown:   If you'll notice, I put the word "contemporary" in quotes in my original post. I share your sentiments exactly, but this has come to be the accepted term for this particular style of worship.   And yes, thank you, I have grown up.   Mark Hopper mahopper@bigfoot.com   -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brown <clmoney@cybernex.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:26 AM Subject: RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)     >With regard to the subject of "contemporary worship"; will somebody please >define for me what is meant by "contemporary worship or music"!!!! > >Based on the criteria of the discussion perhaps we should throw out the >music of John Rutter or, for that matter, anything written past a certain >date (whatever that date might be) > >This is silly!!!!! > >In point of fact every period of music as well as every style of music has >good and bad in it. In addition, there is good music that gets treated very >badly which, I suspect, is what makes a lot of it get called bad. > >In fact I have heard a lot of contemporary music, even...gasp...folk-style >music....performed beautifully and with a great deal of inspiration. > >At one time even our most tried and true old-fashioned worship was >"contemporary worship." At one time even our biggest war-horse pieces were >"contemporary music." At one time even dear old JS himself was >contemporary!!!!!!!!! > >Lest we forget, even Christ, the person who putitively this whole thing is >about, was new, contriversial, and challenging to contemporary thinking. > >I am tired of people in this profession standing on the podiums declaring >what is acceptable. If they are not for the challenge maybe they should quit >and find other means of making a living. > >GROW-UP!!!!! Music evolves!!!! Worship evolves!!!!!! Art evolves!!!! > >Do you have to like all of it??? NO!!!!! but...that does not mean that as >soon as a new idea comes forth..or someone like a minister wants to try >something, we run for the hills and quit in protest!!!!! > >I can't wait for the flames I am going to get on this one!!!!!!! >Expected....and usual!!!!! > >Dr. Charles E. Brown > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:14:44 -0600   Dr. Brown:   You quoted me as having said:   I don't recall having quit anything, nothing at all. They are part of the program and I look out for that. But- they are a PART of the overall program.   I never posted this and have no clue as to what it means!!?!!   Could you explain?   Mark Hopper -----Original Message----- From: Charles Brown <clmoney@cybernex.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 1:56 PM Subject: RE: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...)     >Scott: > >Now you have me thoroughly confused!!! > >you said in your fist post: > >I resigned my >position as organist in my medium-sized Christian (Disciples of Christ) >Church tonight. > > >You further said: > >Our choir >director and I are both graduate students in a Master of Church Music >Program closeby. He also resigned last week. > > >And in your last post you said: > >I don't recall having quit anything, nothing at all. They are part of the >program and I look out for that. But- they are a PART of the overall >program. > >Which is it??????? > >Charles > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Music Directors From: "Chris Mullen" <nascarfreak1039@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:14:52 PST       Jim H. wrote: Chris > >I wish you well my friend. Unfortunately, most of the churches depend upon volunteer or part timers to fill the music directors slots. I just filled a questionaire put out by Synod, which asked if the congregation was using a worship committee in determining the weekly hymnody. > >Search for your rewards in the connection between God and you at the >manuals. To the best of my knowledge, (37 years) there are few >positions open that will put beans on the table. But who knows, God may have a pleasant surprise in store. > >Jim H > >Jim,   I sure hope so!!! If there weren't a need for full time directors, there wouldn't be any programs for them in schools. I hope that God has a place in store for me that will allow me to give Him the glory as well as put food on the table.   Chris Mullen   "You know you're a music major when the members of your graduating class were freshmen when you were a senior"       ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: The Ideal Church Position (Re: I need support...) From: ROBIN88866@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:12:43 EST   In a message dated 99-01-26 19:12:02 EST, you write:   << Wow! Someone actually mentioned my idol on an organ list! Life is absolutely scary! >>     If you talking about Oscar Peterson, it is my opinion that he deserves to be mentioned wherever music is discussed. By the way, he plays organ too!     Robin