PipeChat Digest #967 - Friday, July 2, 1999 re: Disney Organ by "Tim Bovard" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Electronics vs Pipe by "Jason D. Comet" <email@example.com> Funeral homes and organs by <RMB10@aol.com> Disney organ by "LAMAR BOULET" <firstname.lastname@example.org> steam calliope thread by "David L Weller" <email@example.com> Re: Disney organ by "Roy Redman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> steam vs. air by "Frank Johnson" <email@example.com> Re: steam vs. air by <ORGANUT@aol.com> Re: Disney organ by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Disney organ by "VEAGUE" <firstname.lastname@example.org> I'm Back by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> small organs by "VEAGUE" <email@example.com> Re: steam vs. air by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> steam calliope thread by "David L Weller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: steam vs. air by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: steam vs. air by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Re: steam vs. air by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Electronics vs Pipe by <CHERCAPA@aol.com> The wedge w/o registration changes by "Robert Horton" <email@example.com> re: Disney Organ by "Stephen F.P.Karr" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Disney Organ...everyone please relax! by "Robert Horton" <email@example.com> Re: Disney Organ by "Sand Lawn" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Disney Organ by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Disney Organ by <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: re: Disney Organ From: Tim Bovard <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:09:07 -0500 Hi, Folks! An interesting collection of thoughts on this thread today. Some thoughts of mine (in order, I hope...): Mark Huth writes of his feelings that we should all be happy with the fact that the new hall includes a (any!) pipe organ. I completely agree. It = is admittedly a far too infrequent situation with new (even old...) concert halls these days. All aesthetics aside, the instrument IS likely to be a success musically (thank you, Rosales), and also likely to be a widely "publicized" installation. For these things, we can all be grateful. Antoni Scott writes: <snip> >I think the negative response to the organ is not the organ itself but >the corrosive effect Disney has on everything it touches. <snip> Again, I agree wholeheartedly. I am completely galled at the blatant overcommercialization perpetuated by the Disney corporations; even more disgusted with 'society in general' for not only allowing it, but actively screaming for more. I wonder what Walt himself would do if he returned from the afterlife...I'd hope he would have the decency to call a halt to it (the "Walt Disney" personna I grew up with certainly would!), but in = the face of the multi-billions of $$, I even doubt that. What a shame, = indeed. Finally, John Vanderlee reports another endeavour of the same = architectural firm responsible for this design. He poses the question: <snip> "Are = we all that stodgy?" <snip> John, I think not. Nowhere in my Websters is the term "stodgy" defined as "one who objects to ugliness". This, my friends, is perhaps the crux of the current discussion. I don't believe I have seen ONE posting in this thread that seems to support the idea that anything about the Disney organ is even remotely visually appealing. Have we all grown so accustomed to the idea that "NEW" equals "UGLY" that it takes an extreme such as this = for us to even notice?? (Is this what the Disney people are actually striving for, in the name of publicity?) I do not mean to imply that nothing "modern" is worthy; far from it. There are, in fact, countless examples of modern architecture and modern organ design that prove that "new" and "different" CAN coexist peacefully and pleasantly with all that has come before. Why, then, must this assault on the visual senses be accepted as = a part of the ongoing tradition of organbuilding (one of the last true "traditional" crafts left in this ever changing world)? I thank you all, for allowing me to speak my mind. I'll look forward to further discussion. Timothy M. Bovard Little Rock, AR <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Electronics vs Pipe From: "Jason D. Comet" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:46:39 -0400 >Jason, God. What brand is this you're talking about. Sincerely< Paul >P. >Valtos Allen jc ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
(back) Subject: Funeral homes and organs From: RMB10@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:00:58 EDT As both a Funeral Director/Embalmer and a Church/Concert Organist, I am = able to see and hear many organs and organists around the area. It never = ceases to amaze me at how pitiful some of the music programs are. I know that = many people are giving the best they have, but there have been many instances where I have had to leave the room because the music has been so bad. The = interesting thing is that when I was in full-time church work, I never was = able to go hear some of the instruments around town, and now I get to experience them. I think the worst thing that I've heard so far, is when = the organist was trying to accompany the soloist, and within a few measures managed to go from E flat to E major and back to E flat, all while the = piece was supposed to be in E major. She told me afterwards that she never saw that the key was E major. I have also been called on in a few instances = to have to fill in at the last minute for organists who didn't show, or to accompany a violinist in a piano/violin concerto what was dropped in front = of the organist 20 minutes prior to the service, and she couldn't sight read = it. At a Baptist service, I have even had to fill in as worship leader at the = last minute when the Minister of Music wasn't able to make the service. = It's also fun to surprise a family I've worked with when suddenly I appear on = the bench to play for a service. I even did an impromptu recital for a family = following a funeral because they found out that I was an organist. We = have several regular "staff" organists at our four chapels, but when a guest organist calls to ask about the instruments we have, I'm always the one = who has to answer the questions. All the other funeral directors know is that = the organs have manuals and pedals. Monty Bennett Charlotte, NC
(back) Subject: Disney organ From: LAMAR BOULET <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:04:17 PDT Some where along the way, I missed out on some infor about the Disney = organ. Who is building it? About the fascade--has there been a pic of it posted? lamar _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
(back) Subject: steam calliope thread From: David L Weller <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:35:46 EDT Greetings list members, The steam stern wheeler 'Belle of Louisville' ** that docks on the third street wharf here in downtown Louisville, KY. has a calliope on the roof behind the pilot house. This boat is slightly smaller than the Delta Queen and is owned and operated by the city. I believe it is self supporting from the cruise fares. It makes several daily cruises up the Ohio several miles to around six mile island. Many people around here are familiar with the sound of the calliope as it is played often during cruise season. If my memory serves me correctly, about 15 years ago it was a 'tracker' with the 37 note keyboard mounted directly to the end of the two steam manifolds. I believe that you stood to play it - the playing position was rather exposed, both to the elements and steam condensation. Now the instrument has been converted to electric action and the keyboard moved below to the forward Texas deck, a kinder place for the performer ( also seated). This also allows the passengers to gather around and watch/ make requests. BTW, the keys are made of metal. I can hear the calliope from my home in St. Matthews, ( a suburb of Louisville ) several miles from the river, on days when the wind direction is right, etc. There is nothing quite like the gliss of held notes as the whistles heat up / steam displaces air in the column. You don't get the same effect from straight air. I hope that you found the above interesting. A native Louisvillian, David L. Weller ** Once upon a time the Belle's name was the Idlewilde ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
(back) Subject: Re: Disney organ From: Roy Redman <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:40:35 -0500 Ism't anyone going to clue them in about this organ? Roy Redman antoni scott wrote: > I think the negative response to the organ is not the organ itsself but > the corrosive effect Disney has on everything it touches. I am sure a > fact finding committe returned with the information that the "return on > the buck" invested would be high. Art has nothing to do with it. > > Mark Huth wrote: > > > > I find it interesting that nearly everyone is already dismissing this > > instrument out-of-hand. I'll agree that the facade is somewhat > > challenging to people who know what has historically been done in = organ > > design, but no one has once applauded the fact that a pipe instrument = has > > been included in one of the country's most well-visited concert halls. > > Would you rather that there be no pipe organ whatsoever? > > > > Many children will have an opportunity to hear and see this = instrument. > > >From the reputation of the Rosales firm (and from what I know = first-hand > > of him and his work), this organ should be top-notch. Isn't this > > something to be pleased about? > > > > I think we should be happy that a pipe organ has been placed there, = even > > enjoying the fact that it's appearance will certainly leave a lasting > > impression. In an age when we're rueing the fact that children have = no > > exposure or appreciation of pipe organs, isn't it a positive step that = an > > instrument such as this has been included in the new hall? > > > > I happen to be a big sports fan, as well, and I remember when Disney > > bought an NHL franchise. When they announced it would be called the > > Anaheim Mighty Ducks, NHL management and fans cried out, asserting it = was > > a horrible name which would never bring respect to the team and the > > league. Everyone talked about tradition and how people who understood > > what the NHL was "all about" would ever think to use such a juvenile > > moniker for something as historic as an NHL franchise. > > > > Disney simply smiled and said, "You can tell us all you like about how = to > > play hockey, but don't tell us how to market and present a product." > > > > Today, the Anaheim Mighty Ducks is a huge success, with an extremely = loyal > > following the world over. Their logo merchandise over the past few = years > > has been outsold by only one other team (and narrowly at that), the > > Chicago Bulls during the Michael Jordan era. > > > > Nearly everyone in the NHL has admitted that they didn't understand = the > > method behind the "Mighty Ducks" madness, and agrees that Disney has = done > > a remarkable job. Other new teams created by relocation or expansion = (the > > Nashville Predators and the Carolina Hurricanes, for example), haven't = had > > nearly the same success in building team recognition. > > > > Perhaps this pipe facade will be another in a long tradition of Disney > > successes. While it challenges my idea of what a pipe organ looks = like, I > > LOVE the fact that an organization which has captured the hearts and > > imagination of countless throngs of children and adults has chosen to > > embrace the concept of an organ in a concert hall. I can imagine = children > > returning from a trip to the concert hall will show a new found = respect > > for the organ in our church. > > > > And that is more than enough for me. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Mark Huth > > Rodgers Instruments, LLC > > firstname.lastname@example.org > > http://www.rodgersinstruments.com > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > > > > Actual ad in a newspaper: > > 'And now, the Superstore--unequaled in size, unmatched in variety, > > unrivaled inconvenience.' > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:email@example.com > > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: steam vs. air From: Frank Johnson <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:48:39 -0500 (CDT) >Greetings list members, > >The steam stern wheeler 'Belle of Louisville' ** that docks on the third >street wharf here in downtown Louisville, KY. has a calliope on the roof >behind the pilot house. > > > > > >Now the instrument has been converted to electric action and the keyboard >moved below to the forward Texas deck, a kinder place for the performer ( >also seated). This also allows the passengers to gather around and >watch/ make requests. BTW, the keys are made of metal. This may be a "dumb" question but does the steam actually make a different sound than if it were just 'air?' Frank Frank R. Johnson (KA0API) Spirit of New Orleans - clarinet/leader http://www.hit.net/~usd465/ 1922 E. 14th Winfield, KS 67156
(back) Subject: Re: steam vs. air From: ORGANUT@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:10:37 EDT In a message dated 7/1/99 9:51:09 PM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org = writes: << This may be a "dumb" question but does the steam actually make a different sound than if it were just 'air?' Frank Frank R. Johnson (KA0API) Spirit of New Orleans - clarinet/leader http://www.hit.net/~usd465/ 1922 E. 14th Winfield, KS 67156 >> Frank, I believe that a calliope continually changes pitch on any given = pipe because the density of the steam continually changes due to wide changes = in steam temperature. Probably the instrument would stay in better tune on compressed air whose density would be more constant. (Just an opinion = and not represented as fact) Later, Phil L.
(back) Subject: Re: Disney organ From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:22:06 -0400 I tried to send the page but pipechat wouldn't accept it. See if this works, it's the address of the front page. You're looking for Walt Disney Concert Hall. <http://www.disneyhall.org> Diane S.
(back) Subject: Disney organ From: "VEAGUE" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:30:53 -0500 Hi List... Reading responses from this thread, I agree and am pleased = that the fine folks at Disney chose pipes over electronic. I still have a = cactus needle in my saddle blanket tho, over the facade. Could we compromise and have the Rosales come up on a rotating Barton lift? Rick dutchorgan+AEA-svs.net
(back) Subject: I'm Back From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Friends, I've just spent 4 frenetic days in Worcester, Mass., at the absolutely splendid Region I AGO Convention. Everything was planned so beautifully and I enjoyed meeting new friends (I mostly hung around the folks from Portland Maine). The convention came to a thrilling conclusion with Dr Joyce Jones performing on a Reuter organ at First Baptist, Worcester. After a furious, frenetic first half, the second half of her program was sheer delight. 3 encores folks!! The 3rd and final encore was her own rendition of "Flight of the Bumblebee". If I hadn't seen it, I would not have believed it! She played it on the pedals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's put it this way, she plays faster than she talks! More as I have time to think on everything. --Neil P.S. Did you all receive the answer to my quiz I gave before I signed off last week?
(back) Subject: small organs From: "VEAGUE" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:38:18 -0500 +AD4APgA+- See? Size isn't everything+ADwAPAA8- snip I'll be nice and behave myself again....... A smaller instrument can be challengingly rewarding to coax wonderful and interesting sounds from.... Case in point...a friend has a 5-rank Louisville Uniphone in his home. = More sweeter sound could not be found on an instrument with multiple ranks of everything. Rick dutchorgan+AEA-svs.net
(back) Subject: Re: steam vs. air From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:42:38 EDT Hi Frank, Phil, and list--- I dont have a complete answer for you folks on the air versus steam question. However, I do have results of experimentation at our local railroad, that being consumption of air versus steam to toot the same locomotive whistle. It takes 3 times as much compressed air, volume wise, = to blow a steam whistle than steam itself. We came to the conclusion that the = much larger air usage was, in fact, because air does NOT expand, and steam = does. Regards, ---Roc
(back) Subject: steam calliope thread From: David L Weller <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 23:46:07 EDT Frank R. Johnson writes: > This may be a "dumb" question but does the steam actually make a >different sound than if it were just 'air?' >Frank Frank, Not dumb at all. In my experience those instruments sound very different on steam than on just straight air. The pitch envelope of notes on a calliope is definitely different when driven with steam. I think that this is due both to the heating up of the whistle's brass bell and the displacement of air in the resonating column with an atmosphere of different density ( the steam ). I guess I would describe it as a rich wet sound. This late at night anyway. David Louisville, KY ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
(back) Subject: Re: steam vs. air From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Could this then, signal a new wave of organ building? Music making and humidifying sanctuaries at the same time? --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: steam vs. air From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:54:35 EDT Hi Neil---- Um,,,,your posting made me perspire just reading it sitting here in the = 95% Joisey humidity. <G> Lets leave the humidification of the sanctuary till about late January or February. Sound like a plan? Cheers, ---Roc
(back) Subject: Re: steam vs. air From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Roc, I just came from Region I convention, where I perspired MORE in 4 days, I think, than I have ever in my entire life. Wow, talk about steam heat in those old beautiful churches. I don't know how the Bishop and all the attending priests did it at the Solemn Vespers at the St. Paul's Cathedral (worcester) on Tuesday. They were in Full regalia, full lights, no fans (recording), incense, the whole 9 yards. --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Electronics vs Pipe From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:08:58 EDT Dear Jason, I know you probably have a technician that works with the = Allen distributor but if you have those kind of problems and he can't fix them, = you should call the Allen Organ Service department. Jerome Markowitz, the guy = who started Allen would turn over in his grave if he knew of your problems. = Just talk to Jim Wagner at the service department and he should be able to fix = you up. A fine person, technically knowledgeable and one who does not talk above you. Sincerely Paul P. Valtos
(back) Subject: The wedge w/o registration changes From: Robert Horton <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:03:23 -0500 >The Wedge P & F which began the program. I was told >that Martin played the entire Prelude and Fugue on one registration, = which >would, no doubt, have made me jumpy at all the little episodes that seem = to >me to clearly want registration changes. I don't have the score in front of me, so I can't know for certain to which parts you're referring. However, there are a couple of telltale signs that Bach uses when he wants you to change manuals. * Actually writing out "piano" and "forte" as in the Italian Concerto and St. Anne * Telling you which manual to use (e.g. Ruckpositiv, Oberwerk) as in the Dorian Toccata or the G Major Concerto transcription * Beaming the manuals separately as in the A Minor Concerto = transcription, and if you look closely at the autograph for the B Minor Prelude, you'll see that this is exactly what he DOESN'T want during the polyphonic "concertino" sections * Writing "a 2 clavier" in the title as he does in the Sonatas and Orgelbuchlein Bach is usually careful to indicate where one should change manuals, so = in the absence of such a sign from the composer, the performer is really left to their own artistic devices. >This was a topic of discussion at >the dinner table this evening. The change-ists carried the day, I think. = My >question to anyone on the lists is: "Where is it written that one should play >this work on one registration?" A better question would be: "Where is it written that one must change registration during the work?" Far from the Reuters and Schlickers of the 20th century, the instruments of Bach and Buxtehude's day had plena that were extremely pleasant to the ear. It would not have been thought at all strange for someone to sit down and play for fifteen minutes on the plenum...that's just what they did. That being said, let's move into the 20th century. Would I sit down at a "modern" instrument (such as a Schlicker or a Reuter) and subject the listener to half an hour of plenum just for the sake of being historically authentic?...With very few exceptions, NO! Rob
(back) Subject: re: Disney Organ From: Stephen F.P.Karr <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 05:11:05 GMT Hi, all- I just returned from the Region IV convention (which was, btw, very good), = and I've been following the Disney thread somewhat closely. I followed = the link that someone posted to the picture of the actual drawing. I'm just wondering if we aren't all jumping the gun, because unless you folks have seen something that I've not, the only picture there is on that website is = about one inch wide by two long. It does show the so-called french-fry facade display, but is that a drawing from Rosales? I wouldn't think that = would be a drawing from him, because it lacks all sorts of detail. I know = the organ is probably already designed and thoroughly drawn from every = angle imaginable. I'd like to see anything else there is available about this instrument (which promises to be very fine, no matter what it looks like) that's on the web. -Stephen _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
(back) Subject: Disney Organ...everyone please relax! From: Robert Horton <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 00:10:52 -0500 At 08:09 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Finally, John Vanderlee reports another endeavour of the same = architectural >firm responsible for this design. He poses the question: <snip> "Are = we >all that stodgy?" <snip> Well, I certainly am...:) I find it somewhat hard to make a quick judgement about this project. After snooping about the Disney site and the Rosales site, all I've seen = is a small graphic about the size of the postage stamp. From this, I can = make a few observations... * The instrument will be one of, if not THE central feature of the hall--a very good thing indeed, allowing the audience to savor the visual aspects of stop-pulling, pedal solos, etc...and making concerted works a possibility as well. * The instrument appears to be without a case--we have several decades of 20th century ogan-building to demonstrate the disastrous results of "bare-naked organ guts". * Both the architect and the donors are committed to producing a facility with world-class acoustics. * A central feature of the design will be that the pipes are at irregular angles from vertical--Mechanically speaking, this is certainly feasible. Horizontal reeds, mitered pipes, hooded reeds, etc...all place the pipe's center of gravity far from being in line with its base. Aesthetically, however, Rosales is boldly going where no man has gone before. * Rosales' site mentions that the instrument will have 4 manuals and 70 = ranks. Given the above, I think we'd best just wait and see. I refuse to get excited (either way) until we see some firm plans coming from the Rosales shop. This is only a preliminary drawing, who knows what the final = product will resemble? For an exercise in the "reliability" of an artist's conception...compare the artist's vision of the instrument for Alice = Millar Chapel (published in The Diapason 1963?4?) with the actual facade produced by Whiteford and the good folks at Aeolian-Skinner. The final product may very well NOT resemble a large order of fries...perhaps Rosales will simply angle the facade out very slightly, maybe he'll cross the pipes in an attractive chevron pattern...Who can = tell based on a teeny little image that some architect just tossed off? >Have we all grown so accustomed to >the idea that "NEW" equals "UGLY" that it takes an extreme such as this = for >us to even notice?? I'm not sold on the idea that NEW=3DUGLY, but I do have issues with architecture (and music) that relies on pure shock value to communicate with the viewer/listener. While great artists are sometimes misunderstood by their own age...somewhere along the line that fact was perverted into our 20th century belief that one is not an artist unless s/he is utterly incomprehensible. Robert Horton - DMA Student, University of Kansas 1603 West 15th St. #207A, Lawrence, KS 66044 http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn/ Q. "Do two normal people make one paranormal?"
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Organ From: "Sand Lawn" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:20:43 -0700 We have only seen the drawings.... wait until it appears on the cover of the TAO before making the final judgement. It just may be incredible... = at least if Rosales does his his magic with the voicing! Sand Lawn > > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org >Administration: mailto:email@example.com >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org >
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Organ From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:32:08 -0400 (EDT) As I have come in in the middle of this thread... where will this Disney organ be? --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Organ From: email@example.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:47:00 -0700 On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:01:50 -0500 "VEAGUE" <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes: > Lets all get together and tell Disney what we think of their design > team and > conceptual ideas. > > Rick dutchorgan+AEA-svs.net > No, let's wait and see a final drawing. I got the impression, from what I saw on the Web site (disneyhall.org/mod03/mod03-01.shtml) that what was shown was for illustration purposes only. Even at Disney, there are many, many changes between the original concept, and what actually gets build. And, has anybody bothered to ask the Rosales firm for info? Shalom, Preston Wilson email@example.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.