PipeChat Digest #974 - Tuesday, July 6, 1999
 
Tin ceilings
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Biggs recording
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: PipeChat Digest #970 - 07/03/99
  by "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net>
Re: out-of-tune organs (x-posted)
  by "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net>
RE: Winfield, (long) KS Austin saved
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph
  by "Stanley E Yoder" <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Re: desperate need of an organ....
  by "Clarity Connect" <96606351@clarityconnect.com>
tuning
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: tuning
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
Re: tuning
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
RE: Winfield, (long) KS Austin saved
  by "Frank Johnson" <usd465@hit.net>
Re: OTH [was Re: performance, etc.]
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: tuning
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph
  by <ProOrgo48@aol.com>
Seeking info from Chicagoland area
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: Organ Woes now GONE! =3D)
  by "Michael Davis" <MichaelDavis@wykecottage.freeserve.co.uk>
PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: tuning
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Tin ceilings
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: tuning
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: Organ Woes now GONE! =3D)
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: tuning
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph
  by <ProOrgo48@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Tin ceilings From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:29:09 -0500   A tin ceiling sounds interesting. One more advanced step would be to have the tin come down the walls a few feet, rounding the corners concave and wall-to-ceiling intersect concave. I've seen this done and heard the results. Very much difference for the sound rolling around in the curves vs. sound hitting sharp angles.   Rick dutchorgan+AEA-svs.net        
(back) Subject: Re: Biggs recording From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 06:52:14 -0400   At 11:27 PM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >I believe the recording of the four cathedral organs was in Freiburg, = West >Germany, not Leipzig, E. Germany. I have a copy of it somewhere. >Judy Ollikkala   Yes, that recording is of the Freiburg instruments.   I have that recording in both LP and CD form, and in my humble opinion, = the LP is considerably better in the aural location of the four instruments. All four organs can be played from one central console, (which i think was the way that Biggs recorded the music).   Either way, it is an interesting disc.   Bob Conway ... "Learn from the mistakes of others. You cannot live long enough to make them all yourself."          
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #970 - 07/03/99 From: "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 07:07:20 -0400   Hi, Y'all:   Several have commented re: > >>Also obliterating the music by playing at breakneck speeds because one = can >>isn't necessarily musical either.<snip> > >Two names epitomized this concept: Bruce Prince-Joseph and Richard Ellsasser.   Well . . . I never had the pleasure of hearing Ellsasser in person, but I certainly know of his legacy, but Bruce Prince-Joseph, is another story.   I first "saw" Bruce P-J before I met him. I was seated in Wightman Chapel at Scarritt College in Nashville listening to a concert. I heard the door open and some feet on the slate floor and then looked up. There was an older man dressed "to the nines" with navy double-breasted suit and tie, and since it was winter, a full-length MINK coat! It was one of the very few times I'd ever seen a man wear a mink, but in this small chapel, in everyone's view, it was quite a site! What an entrance!   I eventually heard him play a lot of harpsichord or fortepiano at the = Belle Meade Mansion a beautifully restored antebellum mansion, where he was curator of musical instruments. He would dress in period costume and accompany Mary Bates or some such singer and perform period pieces. He was truly marvelous in this position and certainly heightened everyone's awareness of music of this period. I also heard him as a continuo artist = in oratorio around Nashville, as well. It was his continuo playing that = formed the reason for our relationship.   When I was hired at Coral Ridge Church in the summer of 1985, I knew I = part of my responsibility was to play the harpsichord in the annual = performances of Messiah. I had no experience with the harpsichord, so I phoned Bruce = and asked about lessons. He agreed to teach me for the few months before I moved to Fort Lauderdale. Lessons were scheduled for an hour, but often went 3 or 4 and included dinner or lunch and much, much, much chat about personalities and style and performances practices, etc. Admittedly his organ playing is/was very mannered (as was most of the organ playing = during his time in NYC), but his harpsichord playing was very learned according = to modern scholarship.   The instrument used for my lessons was a smallish two-manual with three stops (I think), but he was always seated at his "big" machine with 7 = stops (16's to 4's) and pedals. In fact, it was this pedal harpsichord that he had used for most of his recordings, including one l.p. for jazz harpsichord. He was a master. I learned so much from him about making = music and about making music at the harpsichord. Often, when I would return to Nashville to visit family or on vacation, I would call on him. I loved his stories about life as a musician and every other facet of life.   My life is richer for having known and studied, albeit briefly) with Bruce Prince-Joseph.   Yours,   Darryl by the Sea Fort Lauderdale, Florida        
(back) Subject: Re: out-of-tune organs (x-posted) From: "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 07:14:28 -0400   Lately, there has been some discussion about French organs and their reputation for being out-of-tune. Someone said, >>I was told that >>in such big organs as Notre-Dame or St Sulpice, regular tuning is just not >>practical because pipes are buried everywhere inside the case.   I really don't know about that=97-I probably will able to answer when I get back from Cavaille-Coll conference in Denton in October=97-but I do know tha= t at a luncheon with several of the students and faculty from the Paris Conservatory, Olivier Latry (who was searching in his briefcase for someting), pulled out a tuning stick (I don't know the official name, it looks like a knife) and a cone tuning device and said with a smile something like "no French organist can go to work without these!"=20   So I guess if a French organist wants his pipes tuned, he's the tuner, too!   Yours,   Darryl by the Sea Fort Lauderdale, FL    
(back) Subject: RE: Winfield, (long) KS Austin saved From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:35:35 -0500   >Don't get your lists mixed up -- Organ Chat has the filter, this is Pipe >Chat. > >> but then, hasn't Dennis invoked a "filter" to keep attachments >> out of the bandwidth?   And the listserver for PipeChat is also set-up to exclude "enclosures", i.e. attachments. I had another reason to check the log for the = listserver yesterday and saw where the message with the attachments was rejected by the server.   Since I gather there is lots of interest in these photos I would suggest that Frank might want to put them up on a web page for all to see. If he wants to send them to me privately at my address below, I will put them on a page at the PipeChat web site.   I hope everyone had a good and safe 4th.   David **************************************** David Scribner Co-Owner / Technical Administrator PipeChat   850-478-9635 mailto:david@blackiris.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:21:31 -0400 (EDT)   Excerpts from mail: 5-Jul-99 Re: PipeChat Digest #970 - .. by "Dr. Darryl Miller"@safa > In fact, it was this pedal harpsichord that he > had used for most of his recordings, including one l.p. for jazz > harpsichord.   I have one of these: a 10" LP produced by the (legendary) Emory Cook, I think late 50s: JSB, Vivaldi-JSB, Mozart.   The liner notes say that the "Prince" in his name connotes a lineage back to the Crusades, and includes (a bit later than the latter) Toulouse-Lautrec, and that at 17 he was the youngest-ever organist of the chancel organ at St. Pat's, NYC. His pedal harpsichord was/is a Neupert, built to P-J's specs.   Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re: desperate need of an organ.... From: "Clarity Connect" <96606351@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 09:43:34 -0400   Carlo Pietroniro:   Send me a private e-mail to my address link below as I have an Allen organ available for your friends church. I'm "sorry" to the rest of the list = for posting this. Carlos private "hotmail.com" address was returned twice to = me as unknown. Thanks all. Stay cool!!!   LWH 96606351@clarityconnect.com        
(back) Subject: tuning From: RMB10@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:54:24 EDT   When I was the Organist/Assoc. Minister of Music at Calvary Church, Charlotte, NC, the organ was tuned monthly. The organ technicians spent somewhere between 2 1/2-3 days tuning, plus they would come out to touch = up minor problems like the 4' Clarion Harmonique in the Bombarde Division, as =   needed. With 205 ranks of pipes, that organ is much larger than most = other organs around the world. However, the thing that helped the organ tremendously is that the temperature in the sanctuary (which the new = pastor calls the "Celebration Room") stays fairly constant. That's the thing = which differs in the European cathedrals. In the winters, the old Gothic = buildings are ice cold, and in the summer they get hot. Those old cathedral instruments just don't have the comforts of a steady 70 degree room, like = the instruments in the US have.     Just some thoughts from a Church/Concert Organist turned Funeral = Director....     Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:21:33 -0400   Most of the churches of which I have knowledge that are air conditioned = (and many have none at all) don't have the luxury that Calvary Church has of running the system round the clock during summer. In most cases, the sanctuary is actively air conditioned only on Sunday morning and so much = of Saturday as may be necessary to pull the temperature down to the desired level by the time Sunday services start. This constant up-and-down is, if anything, worse than no air conditioning at all insofar as it affects the stability of an organ's tuning.     -----Original Message----- From: RMB10@aol.com <RMB10@aol.com> To: pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: tuning     >When I was the Organist/Assoc. Minister of Music at Calvary Church, >Charlotte, NC, the organ was tuned monthly. The organ technicians spent >somewhere between 2 1/2-3 days tuning, plus they would come out to touch = up >minor problems like the 4' Clarion Harmonique in the Bombarde Division, = as >needed. With 205 ranks of pipes, that organ is much larger than most = other >organs around the world. However, the thing that helped the organ >tremendously is that the temperature in the sanctuary (which the new = pastor >calls the "Celebration Room") stays fairly constant. That's the thing which >differs in the European cathedrals. In the winters, the old Gothic buildings >are ice cold, and in the summer they get hot. Those old cathedral >instruments just don't have the comforts of a steady 70 degree room, like the >instruments in the US have. > > >Just some thoughts from a Church/Concert Organist turned Funeral Director.... > > >Monty Bennett > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 07:41:49 -0700   At 09:54 AM 7/5/1999 EDT, you wrote: >in the sanctuary (which the new pastor calls the "Celebration Room") = stays fairly >constant.<snip>   Oh, no...I doth smelleth the scourge of "Happy-Clappy"!!!   hehehe   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: RE: Winfield, (long) KS Austin saved From: Frank Johnson <usd465@hit.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:29:07 -0500 (CDT)   >Since I gather there is lots of interest in these photos I would suggest >that Frank might want to put them up on a web page for all to see. If he >wants to send them to me privately at my address below, I will put them = on >a page at the PipeChat web site.   I'll try and do that sometime today. I will get them to you. What is the address of the PipeChat web site?   Thank you, Frank   Frank R. Johnson (KA0API) Spirit of New Orleans - clarinet/leader http://www.hit.net/~usd465/ 1922 E. 14th Winfield, KS 67156      
(back) Subject: Re: OTH [was Re: performance, etc.] From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:19:23 -0400 (EDT)   >...I recall from some years ago, that > Messiaens immediate predecessors, > Guilmant, Widor, et al. were not nearly so > fussy, and would adjust the music to fit the > instrument at hand. >Could this be part of the reason that for > (non-musician) members of the public that > Widor's music is more widely appreciated > than Messiaen's? Um.... not to mention that Widor's music is a heck of alot easier and pleasant to listen to. Many non-musician members of the public feel that their ears have been assaulted after Messiaen, but no Widor.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Dogs laugh, but they laugh with their tails. -- Max Eastman    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:27:59 -0400 (EDT)   =A0=A0 >When I was the Organist/Assoc. Minister of > Music at Calvary Church, Charlotte, NC, the > organ was tuned monthly. The organ > technicians spent somewhere between 2 > 1/2-3 days tuning, plus they would come out > to touch up minor problems like the 4' Clarion > Harmonique in the Bombarde Division...   >However, the thing that helped the organ > tremendously is that the temperature in the > sanctuary stays fairly constant. Somehow this does not make sense to me. If a room is kept at a more or less constant temperature, why on earth would an organ need constant tuning? Unless it was a Moller (oops!) ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Dogs laugh, but they laugh with their tails. -- Max Eastman    
(back) Subject: Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph From: ProOrgo48@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:20:05 EDT   And he is alive and well in Kansas City --- at old St. Mary's Anglican-Episcopal Cathedral, downtown KCMO.    
(back) Subject: Seeking info from Chicagoland area From: Tim Bovard <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:31:08 -0500   Good afternoon, friends!   This is admittedly a 'shot in the dark', but I think I've seen y'all come up with more 'obscure' information from time to time, so here goes:   Is anyone in the Chicagoland area familiar with Wesley United Methodist Church in Aurora, IL, and/or what sort of instrument they might have?? I gather it's a 'smallish' place, but apparently they DO have some sort of organ.   My little sister is getting married there later this summer, and she has asked me (AAARGHHH!!) to play for the service. (the church currently has no organist) As I'm really more of an "amateur" organist myself, any info that anyone can provide would be most useful to help me give her an = answer.   Private replies would probably be best...   Thanks!!   Tim <tmbovard@arkansas.net>    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Woes now GONE! =) From: "Michael Davis" <MichaelDavis@wykecottage.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:45:15 +0100   Yes please Neil this is something I am very interested in   many thanks Michael   > I was given today a new magazine that has an extensive article on > church acoustics. I didn't get to read it yet. If it has merit, I > will inform the list. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:26:54 -0400   To all members of the Pipechat List:   Join the IRC Pipechatters on Monday evenings, or Friday evenings, at 9.00 pm Eastern Time.   If you are not too sure how you do it go to our Web Page at the following = URL:   http://www.pipechat.org   We have provided all the necessary information there for you to see how to get on to the IRC.   I hope to see you this evening!   "Sumer is a'cumin in"! actually it has a'cum in! - for there is a tropical heatwave here in Kingston, Ontario, Canada!   Bob Conway...      
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:39:09 -0500   V. David Barton wrote: >=20 > Most of the churches of which I have knowledge that are air conditioned= (and > many have none at all) don't have the luxury that Calvary Church has of > running the system round the clock during summer. In most cases, the > sanctuary is actively air conditioned only on Sunday morning and so muc= h of > Saturday as may be necessary to pull the temperature down to the desire= d > level by the time Sunday services start. This constant up-and-down is,= if > anything, worse than no air conditioning at all insofar as it affects t= he > stability of an organ's tuning.   It shouldn't need to be be a problem provided you are careful about the conditions under which the organ is tuned. At our church the airconditioning is kept at 85=B0F during the week and put down to 72=B0F = at 6 a.m. Sunday, four hours before the 10 a.m. service. We are always very careful to make sure that the airconditioning is put on four hours before the organ is tuned, and there is never any problem. Same with the heat in the winter.   John Speller, St. Mark's, St. Louis.  
(back) Subject: Re: Tin ceilings From: Prestant16@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:39:44 EDT     > A tin ceiling sounds interesting. One more advanced step would be to = have > the tin come down the walls a few feet, rounding the corners concave = and > wall-to-ceiling intersect concave.     If it is real tin, melt it down and make nice facade pipes!   -William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph From: Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 20:33:56 -0500   ProOrgo48@aol.com wrote:   > And he is alive and well in Kansas City --- at old St. Mary's > Anglican-Episcopal Cathedral, downtown KCMO.   As one who was confirmed into Old St. Mary's, I must point out that while OSM has a strong Anglo-Catholic tradition and style, and while B. P-J is listed as the co-ordinator of music, the Cathedral of the Episcopal Diocese of West Missouri, at which I was actually confirmed, is at IIRC, Grace and Holy Trinity about five blocks away.    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:34:48 -0400 (EDT)   I always was told, and led to believe, that once an organ is tuned to a certain temp, it will go into tune once that temp is reached. Have I been hornswaggled all these years? At our church, the organ stays in pretty good tune, especially with itself, most of the year (we tune 3 times/year). --Neil Brown Barnegat, USA    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Woes now GONE! =) From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:10:22 -0400 (EDT)   >>Yes please Neil: this is something I am very interested in many thanks<<   Yes, Michael, I'll be happy to let you know. But I was a good boy today, and did NOT go to the church. --Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:32:55 -0400 (EDT)   I was taught that the less an organ was tuned the better it would stay in tune. The cathedral organ (A-S) at Christ Church - Houston was tuned completely about every three or four years, and only touched up once a year. It was never really objectionably out of tune; only occasionally was there a rough reed note.   Last summer the 2/21 Moller at Holy Faith (G'ville FL) was tuned. It's still fine except for the chamade which is over the West Door about 12 feet above the floor so it's constantly in a draft. The building is only cooled on the weekend and occasionally during the week. The advantage there is the organ is not in a chamber, and although double decked, the two divisions come into tune when the room is brought to about 75-degrees F.   Last week, I tuned and regulated the Hautbois at First UMC (G'ville) -- believe it or not, the poor thing had never been regulated, evidenced by ALL of the caps on the Hautbois being completely closed! What an ugly sound! It's amazing what a difference a half-inch makes!! The reed was tuned to the 4' Principal with the room cooled for only about an hour; Sunday with the AC having been on for almost eight hours, the reed was still in tune. I have touched up only two notes on the Positiv Dulzian 8. The Swell Trompette hasn't been touched up since I got there in March and is only "fuzzy" in spots. I don't think every stop needs to be totally rock in tune all of the time; and trying to maintain this is actually counter productive.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Dogs laugh, but they laugh with their tails. -- Max Eastman    
(back) Subject: Re: Bruce Prince-Joseph From: ProOrgo48@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 01:35:01 EDT   You're quite correct; I stand, now, more informed. St. Mary's is not a Cathedral.   Dale