PipeChat Digest #978 - Thursday, July 8, 1999 Re: Disney Concert Hall by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: tuning (returning to in-tune when temp restored) by <RMaryman@aol.com> Disney Organ Facade by <KriderSM@aol.com> Disney facade pipes by <KriderSM@aol.com> Tuning in Bach's Time by <KriderSM@aol.com> Wurlitzer Console Plans by <KriderSM@aol.com> Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? by <Myosotis51@aol.com> Re: Disney pipe facade by "Charles & Maria Krug" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Re: Disney Concert Hall by "Sand Lawn" <email@example.com> On Eagles Wings, by Michael Joncas by <ProOrgo48@aol.com> Disney Pipe Organ by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Re: Crete, Cretins, Cretinous, etc... by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Re: Disney Organ Facade by "bruce cornely" <email@example.com> Facade Superficiality by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: tuning (returning to in-tune when temp restored) by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Disney Pipe Organ by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Facade Superficiality by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Search for Ivory Stoptabs by <JDeCaria@aol.com> Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? by <JKVDP@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Concert Hall From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:25:28 -0400 (EDT) >>Pedal: 32' Rock Hudson 16' Paramount Diapason 8' Spielberg Spielflute 4' Hollywood Harmonics (VIII) 16' Pavarotti Posaune 8' Roseanne Humana 4' Oxnard Ophiclede MIDI (Maximum Instrument Done Ineptly) << 64' TRavolta Revolta 32' San Andreas Flaut (fault, oops) 16' Open Hollywood 8' Crumblehorn. 1' Cellphone
(back) Subject: Re: tuning (returning to in-tune when temp restored) From: RMaryman@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:37:24 EDT In a message dated 99-07-05 22:36:26 EDT, you write: << always was told, and led to believe, that once an organ is tuned to a certain temp, it will go into tune once that temp is reached Have I been hornswaggled all these years? >> This statement is >in general< a true statement within certain = understanding. Cone-tuned flue pipework planted on slider chests will be the most in-tune = after several up-and-down temperature excursions, and this is true of flue = pipework in general...that it stays pretty much together at a given temperature. >HOWEVER< most pipework subjected to constantly changing temperature and humidity conditions will gradually pull apart in tuning as the excursions of temp increase. This is due to (partly, at least) the expansion and contraction of the = pipe metal and tuning collars having very slight differences (tin versus = spotted metal or 98 percent lead or what-have-you pipe metal and aluminum or = coke-tin tuning slides). gradually the tuning becomes not as tight as when the = tuning was done. reed pipes are affected to a different degree by temperature changes, and factors such as the resonator length, tongue thickness, wind pressure the stop is voiced on, etc, etc, thus the instrument becomes not-in-tune with itself, and again becomes less in-tune as the number of temperature excursions increases over a period of time. Having the temperature steady, at the sunday morning temperature, for at least four hours is a MUST if you want accurate (and stable) tuning = results. ONE OTHER THING that many folks with pipe organs fail to realize is that = the forced cooling and heating of most modern church facilities can cause much = long-term damage such as stressing and cracking of the wooden components = of pipe organs. Properly seasoned woods (i.e. kiln-dried to 6 to 8 percent moisture) will minimize the problems of dryness related damage, but there = can be considerable stresses generated by fast changes of cool/moist = conditions to hot-dry or cold-dry conditions. the more gentle changes that occur in large stone buildings with little or no artificial climate control went a long way towards preserving the pipe organs within. just my 2 cents (=3D to one degree F change in temp up or down) worth. Rick M Staunton VA
(back) Subject: Disney Organ Facade From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:57:03 EDT According to the web page given in the post one or two posts before this = one, the Violon Bass 32' and the Contre Bassoon 32' form the facade. Both are speaking ranks. Stan Krider email@example.com recently stated: >The facade is just that - superficial.
(back) Subject: Disney facade pipes From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:00:11 EDT Richard Pinel recently wrote: >Actually the French Fries Facade (notice my subtle use of alliteration!) = is >the 32' Open Diapason and 32' Violone ....and I suppose that the initials also stands for the relative loudness = of these two stops - fff Hehehe Stan Krider
(back) Subject: Tuning in Bach's Time From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:01:09 EDT Dave Pitzer asked the list (I guess that would be me): <snip> I'm a bit confused over the question of the tuning of organ's in Bach's time. Are you asking whether Bach's organs were in tune "with themselves" or whether they were "in tune" with some standard (e.g. A=3D440).<snip> My response: The former is the thrust of my question. First, is it true that when the = wind temperature goes up the reeds fly out of tune sharp while the flues go = flat; and the opposite ways when the temperature drops? ...or is it the other = way around? Second, if this is true, how often were these instruments of two hundred years ago tuned? Third, if this is false, then my question is null = and void. This curious mind wants to know if Bach's contemporaries experienced many Sundays of playing organs that were out of tune with themselves? Dave later querried: <snip> And in any case, what would any of these = concerns have to do with the way a particular piece way played ---- disregarding unwanted tremulant effects!!!<snip> My next question: Would Bach and his contemporaries actually have disregarded those unwanted = tremulant effects? ...perhaps as a necessary evil? Again I direct these questions to the historians of the chat line. Stan Krider
(back) Subject: Wurlitzer Console Plans From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:01:10 EDT John, Will you provide details (address of, web site of, etc.) on how to contact DeKalb University? Thank You, Stan Krider John Vanderlee recently wrote: <snip> DeKalb University supposedly has all the Wurlitzer documentation. = At least that's where we found our original theater chamber lay-out. <snip>
(back) Subject: Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? From: Myosotis51@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:34:24 EDT In a message dated 7/7/99 11:32:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: << On a television show called "Nothing Sacred" there was an episode where = at the conclusion of a funeral service for a nun they sang a song with lyrics that go something like this: Verse 1? You who dwell in the shelter of the Lord, who abide in His shadow for life: Say to the Lord, "My refuge, my Rock in whom I trust." >> "Eagle's Wings," by Amy Grant.
(back) Subject: Re: Disney pipe facade From: "Charles & Maria Krug" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:48:05 -0400 List: 1. I like the facade. 2. It's a FACADE!!! Not necessarily a speaking stop we're looking at. So long as the guts are pipe, who CARES about the facade? Though I suppose if I'd my druthers, I'd like to see a copy of the Haunted Mansion facade, complete with ghost projections for special occasions. Charles
(back) Subject: Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:36:29 -0400 On Eagle's Wings, by Michael Joncas Choral setting by Douglas E. Wagner Hope Publishing SATB with accompaniment - A 675 Based on Psalm 91 Very pretty piece. We've used it for several years in my union Protestant church. This new choir director used it in June, and her clock runs slower than = the last director's. It's hard to slow down something you've played for years at a given speed, I discovered. Diane Straight
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Concert Hall From: "Sand Lawn" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:46:33 -0700 Thanks for posting the link to Glater-Glotz, Bruce. Verrrrry intressstinggg! Hope everyone takes a look at it!
(back) Subject: On Eagles Wings, by Michael Joncas From: ProOrgo48@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:02:45 EDT On Eagles Wings is by Michael Joncas and is published widely, in many songbooks and hymnals, with text and music Copyright 1979 by New Dawn = Music. Call Oregon Catholic Press, 1-800-548-8749 and ask for Copyrights Desk; = they can give you information about contacting New Dawn Music, or you can visit = a Catholic parish, look in the pew missal (hymnal, paperback) and offer = their office to pay for a photocopy or to purchase the Missal, usually about = $3.00. Dale G. Rider, KCMO area
(back) Subject: Disney Pipe Organ From: <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 18:10:06 PDT I still don't see what all the fuss is about. I will bet any money that = if any one of you were invited to play this organ once finished you would = jump at the chance. This entire string reminds me of the mediocre organists = who bitch at M.C. Alains playing or E.P. Biggs playing saying that the certain = nuances and tweeks aren't correct all the while these same organists couldn't hope to play some of the music in 30 years time. As the saying goes: "Those who can do; those who can't review" My challenge to you crabby organists: if you can't design a better instrument (both visually and tonally) than Rosales - then shut your swell = box! Maitre _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:26:54 EDT Upon looking up the word "cretinous" in the Hastings Bible Dictionary here = is the paraphrased meaning: Of or being from Crete, possessing undesirable traits (untrustworthy, sexually lax, etc..). Now it is true that St. = Paul did establish a church in Crete and many Cretans were early Christians; however, I draw the line when one says that cretinous is synonymous with Christian. Mind you some Christians do lead Cretinous lifestyles -- but = NOT all :-) Furthermore, Webster's defines cretinous as possessing the traits of an idiot... Now, that my friends may be the description of some clergymen I have known! John
(back) Subject: Re: Crete, Cretins, Cretinous, etc... From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:47:48 EDT Oops, I guess I'm an illiterate cretin :-)... Excuse my misspelling of "cretin"... John
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Organ Facade From: firstname.lastname@example.org (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:42:00 -0400 (EDT) >I am torn between both sides. Being a > traditionalist myself - I prefer "normal" looking > cases - I don't even care for the Holtkamp > displays of ranks and ranks of pipework with > the exposed swell box. Very ugly and > untilitarian in my opinion. I sort of agree, except to acknowlege that the method of organ building which I prefer is not the only way to build and organ, that being mechanical action throughout in a traditional case with unequal temperament and an historical style. But there are other ways which are valid. > I have to admit the small photo we 'can' see of > it looks quite bizzare but if it causes interest in > our rather decomposing art of organ music - > what could be the harm in that?!? Visit the Glatter-Goetz site and go to "info" then "news". There is a good sketch of the facade, which is still bizarre, however. But it is still "another" approach. >Let's face it ladies and gentlemen - after all is > said and done - it is the actual playing > pipework that we really care about. The > facade is just that - superficial. EEEEEEEEEEEK! The facade, traditionally composed of the Principal 8 and/or 4, is not merely superficial but of paramount importance. If the Principal speaks from this advantageous position it is at a marked advantage to those principals which are within the case or, gag!, in a chamber. There is nothing to compare with a well voice facade principal sound. And it's anything but superficial. Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ email@example.com ~~+~~+~~ Dogs laugh, but they laugh with their tails. -- Max Eastman
(back) Subject: Facade Superficiality From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 20:41:05 PDT The organ facade may have been composed of the 8' Principal and 4' Octav = in Germanic organs; however that would seem to be the norm only for smaller organs witrh minimal 16' stops. Many french examples have 16' or 32' = pipes in the facade. Many large american organs have 16' or 32' pipes in the facade. Now please don't think to tell me that the speach of a 32' pipe = is advantageous in the facade. Most bass pipes, as Walter Holtkamp noted = speak best when near a solid surface to reflect sound. I also question the advantageous placement of even 8' stops remarkably when it is the larger bass pipes which usually find themselves in the facade and the smaller = ones are usually on the chest proper - behind the facade. One would think that = a good organ builder would not need to compensate for voicing by placement = of the 8' principal in the facade and would be able to make the ENTIRE rank sound well where ever it was placed - of course there will be limitations = if mounted behind a woolen rug 100' above the nave - but we are speaking of norms here - not exceptions. On my 1916 Casavant - the G.O. 16' Montre and 8' Montre are in the facade and yet are voiced so as not to overwelm the ensemble. Yet the 4' 2' and Mixtur speak with authority and have no problem blending with the 16' and = 8' despite the fact that they are a good 6' - 7' feet from the other pipes. Maitre _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
(back) Subject: Re: tuning (returning to in-tune when temp restored) From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Thank you, Rick M, for affirming what I thought was true, and have generally found in my experience with our own organ. You mention that pipework on a slider chest will generally have the best in-tune possibilities. Perhaps that explains why our organ stays so nicely in tune with itself (even the 2 chambers that are at least 15 or 20 feet apart.) I realize in saying these things, that there are so many, many variables, but it's the principle I was wondering about. Thanks, again. Cheers. --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Disney Pipe Organ From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Let me CHIME in on this issue. I looked at the pic of the model on the German organ builder's web site. I will say that it is definitely avante-garde. The real question is, will it play? For how long? And, that picture does not seem to show us how the organ will look in its hall, another very important issue before we jump to conclusions. I wish this thread were in the public newspapers, so that we could generate some excitement about this project. Who wouldn't go hear something that looked like French Fries? Is it a sin to look like the dietary staple of most Americans? Just be glad it doesn't look like mouse ears. Not being an engineer type, I do wonder about the structural integrity of the thing. But I'm sure that Rosales and the German firm (please forgive my absent mindedness) have taken all this into consideration. My add'l 2 cents worth. --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Thank you, John Drawknob. I knew I was right on this one. At times I feel quite cretinous, let me tell you, but God is still in the business of forgiving us. --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Facade Superficiality From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Maitre, I was always told that 16s and 32s are often in the facade because they speak slower (or, the speech develops slower) than smaller pipes. Thus, they would be more likely to arrive at the ear more or less at the same time--all things considered of course. Another hornswaggle for me? --Neil
(back) Subject: Re: Crete, Cretans, Cretinous, etc... From: DRAWKNOB@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:09:10 EDT Dear Neil, Thanks be to God that He does forgive us and grants us His grace... = otherwise I would think our futures would be rather bleak! Of course, you were = right on the mark! John
(back) Subject: Search for Ivory Stoptabs From: JDeCaria@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:14:32 EDT Hello listers, I am restoring a 1932 Franklin Legge organ (for my own personal use and pleasure) and it is missing two ivory stoptabs. I don't want to use the = new plastic or bone ones; it's just not the same.. If anyone has or knows = where I can get two ivory stoptabs (ideally measuring 19/32" by 2 9/16"), = please respond privately. Joseph DeCaria, Toronto, Ontario
(back) Subject: Re: Can You Tell Me What this Piece Is? From: JKVDP@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:15:55 EDT In a message dated 99-07-07 12:14:33 EDT, you write: << It's called "On Eagle Wings" ... it's in most of the missalettes >> It is often known as the "Catholic National Anthem"! Jerry