PipeChat Digest #983 - Sunday, July 11, 1999
 
Free for concerts in november
  by <HDKarras@aol.com>
Disney pipe facade
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Hook & Hastings
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
the Disney Organ AND the Facade
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Disney pipe facade
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
H&H getting "Hope-Jonesed" ...or Disneyed
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Hook & Hastings
  by "SCHUTRUM,BRUCE" <bschutrum@neo.rr.com>
wind pressure
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@bhsroe.k12.il.us>
Re: Hook & Hastings
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Hook & Hastings
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Bartistry locations, was  Hook & Hastings
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Disney pipe facade
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
facades old and new
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Aeolian records
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Aeolian records
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>
Re: facades old and new
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
Re: Aeolian records
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Hook & Hastings
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: Hook & Hastings (The "Immaculate Hook)
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: Tuning in Bach's Time - reply
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
19th c. builder C.C. Morey (X-post)
  by "Stanley E Yoder" <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
 


(back) Subject: Free for concerts in november From: HDKarras@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:55:08 EDT   Dear Pipechatter,   in process to planning couple concerts in texas in November this year, = after inviting from some churches, i'm interested to have additional concerts around the dates. To inform you about person see my Homepage: <A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/hdkarras"> = http://members.aol.com/hdkarras</A> The fee isn't the important thing, i like to play more than i have invitations yet. If you interested, please contact me on my e-mail adress. Thank you for any help, Hans-Dieter Karras Concert-Organist and Composer  
(back) Subject: Disney pipe facade From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:42:50 EDT   antoni scott recently asked if anyone on the list likes the Disney facade.   Yes, I do! I think it is an awesome design, simply because it does impress =   observers by its totally random appearance! ...unlike the lockstep = facades of the designers of earlier centuries. I'd rather not judge the book by = its cover. IMHO if this breaks the mold of traditional thinking for the perfect left-right mirror image cases we currently see, that is great. The 1939 Chrysler Airflow automobile was the first streamlined car in American automotive history, yet, its ugly (IMHO) lines led the way to the classic autos of the 50s & 60s. It even predicted today's cars with their high co-effecient (sp) liquid lines.   Once again, Disney leads the way by going "outside the lines".   Perhaps the next generation of pipe organs will find the organ an integral =   part of the room's architecture, with the facade being either totally integrated in other aspects of the room, or the each of the organs themsselves (Positive, Great, Swell, Choir) located, surround-sound style = in all four corners of the church.   Stan Krider  
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:04:23 -0400 (EDT)   >The area where the organ is located will > become a baptistry!<snip> >Can we say...."STUPID?" Someone needs to > pistol whip the pastor (or other nearby > responsible party) for this sacrilege! Just my > 2=A2 worth, but this historic instrument is MUCH > more important than some baptismal > font...which can be placed almost anywhere > in the nave! Now, now, DesserTBoB, more likely this is a full-fledged pool for dunkin' and would be distracting in the nave, not to mention tempting on hot days! I do however agree that such radical changes to old buildings is very inappropriate and unfortunate.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Cowardly dogs bark loudest. -- John Webster    
(back) Subject: the Disney Organ AND the Facade From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:04:49 EDT   I totally agree.   Let's hear AND see the results in person! Perhaps this "shocking" organ = will stir more public interest in our favorite form of music. It can't hurt.   Remember, much of our own classical music was considered in bad taste, and =   even the old organists hated the new wimply organs whose keys did not need = to be struck with their fists... Hehehe.   Stan Krider   Mark Huth stated, >I'd like to point out, quite humbly, that I spoke out in support of the >instrument from the beginning. Knowing Manuel's work and his reputation >from others whom I respect, I have a great deal of excitement over this >instrument's promise.   >We need more outstanding organs in concert halls, and Rosales and GG both =   >have the experience, integrity and musical gifts to make this one a >fantastic success.  
(back) Subject: Re: Disney pipe facade From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:19:19 -0400 (EDT)     >IMHO if this breaks the mold of traditional > thinking for the perfect left-right mirror image > cases we currently see, that is great. Dirk Flentrop once said that when the traditional shape of an instrument is deviated from, there is a penalty paid in tonality. He said this at the end of this career, after having build some rather avant gard cases. Form should follow function; when the form is not conducive to optimal function then the result will suffer. We have experienced this since organs became "chambered" and later place "nude" to show funcationality rather than enhance function; actually to show function organ were built backward, with screaming mixtures on the front of the chest right in the room, having NO opportunity to blend or be blended.   > The 1939 Chrysler Airflow automobile was the >first streamlined car in American automotive > history, yet, its ugly (IMHO) lines led the way > to the classic autos of the 50s & 60s. It even > predicted today's cars with their high > co-effecient (sp) liquid lines. It is also noteable that todays automobiles are among the ugliest ever, not to mention most uncomfortable!! Form is not following function, unless the only function is to go fast cheaply (never mind the poor schlubs inside!).   >Perhaps the next generation of pipe organs > will find the organ an integral part of the > room's architecture... Organs are not an integral part of the room. They are a separate entity, an individual instrument. Rather, the room becomes part of the organ in an acoustical sense.   >.. with the facade being either totally integrated > in other aspects of the room, or the each of > the organs themsselves (Positive, Great, > Swell, Choir) located, surround-sound style in > all four corners of the church. This is OK if the "instrument" is an applicance designed to be installed as a stereo "system" and not an instrument. Pipes need to be in proximity with each other for sympathetic vibraton, blending and tuning stability. Far too many churches in this country suffer with pipes placed willy-nilly in window boxes and distributed for effect around the room. You never see an orchestra or band spread around a room; even a marching band in a half-time show is moving in units and as a whole entity. This design "freedom" is one of the very, very unfortunate results of electricity being used in pipe organs. No other musician is separated from his instrument in this fashion. Duh! Aren't we lucky!!   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Cowardly dogs bark loudest. -- John Webster    
(back) Subject: H&H getting "Hope-Jonesed" ...or Disneyed From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:26:05 EDT   Bob,   Your comments underscore the basic dilemma faced by all organ builders. = Does the owner of the pipe organ have the right to make changes in his/her instrument, or must the organ forever be kept in its originally built condition, come hell or high water?   IMHO This question applies to all the controversial strands this chat line =   experiences. The current owner has the right to do whatever he/she wishes = to the instrument, including burning it, junking it under our very eyes, or , =   yes, even making it look like a pile of junk!!   It is Disney's pipe organ, and if Disney wants the artist to wear Mickey Mouse ears, the organist will wear Mickey Mouse ears, OR not have the job. =     As for me and my house, we cannot afford to build the perfect pipe organ, = so we will enjoy (or not) the product of those who can afford to build their perfect pipe organ.   Stan   Bob Scarborough observed yesterday that:   >Well, at least this was before H&H got "Hope-Jonesed", like all the other >builders of the period. Hope-Jones was busy inflicting damage to the >British organ scene at this time. Since it wasn't electrified later, = like >some largers H&H/E.&G.G. Hook installations of the latter 19th century, = I'd >nominate this for being a possibly important instrument. From the = stoplist, >I can gather that this organ will have the warm, sweet flue chorus that = was >a hallmark of H&H's work. Is the organ playable, or in need of a lot of work?      
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings From: "SCHUTRUM,BRUCE" <bschutrum@neo.rr.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:41:18 -0400     > >>The area where the organ is located will become a baptistry!<snip> > >Can we say...."STUPID?" Someone needs to pistol whip the pastor (or other >nearby responsible party) for this sacrilege! Just my 2=A2 worth, but this >historic instrument is MUCH more important than some baptismal font...whic= h >can be placed almost anywhere in the nave! > >Off my soapbox for now, > >DeserTBoB > This is a Baptist church, so I don't see a simple font, but a large basin for immersion! I'm told they need the money from the sale of the H&H. >   Bruce R. Schutrum   bschutrum@neo.rr.com    
(back) Subject: wind pressure From: Gary Black <gblack@bhsroe.k12.il.us> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:11:16 -0500   I have a 1905 Estey Pipe Organ opus #290 and would like to know what wind pressure the organ would have played on when new. The diapasons have leathered mouths and has a reedless oboe 8'. Thanks for your help. GB    
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:41:07 -0500   Prestant16@aol.com wrote:   My boss' grandfather worked for the > company, and also his father, and when the company went under, he got = most of > the service contracts in the Boston area. We still have contracts that = are > over 100 years old.   It sounds to me as if you are talking about Henri Lahaise & Sons. Canadian-born Erasme Lahaise (1851-1949) was working for Hook & Hastings as long ago as the 1880's. His son Henri Lahaise also worked for the firm and when Hook & Hastings went under during the Depression founded his own organ service firm of Henri Lahaise & Sons in 1936. After Henri Lahaise's death in 1962 the firm continued under Henri's sons Robert and Richard Lahaise. For over 60 years the Lahaise firm has done a wonderful job of preserving some of the finest old organs in New England, and there are few other firms that can claim such a fine record.   John Speller, St. Louis, Missouri.  
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:16:31 -0700   At 09:41 AM 7/10/1999 -0500, you wrote:   >It sounds to me as if you are talking about Henri Lahaise & Sons.   Indeed. In 1971, Robert Lahaise had to be in constant attendence at Immaculate in order to just keep the poor old Hook playing while Thomas Murray recorded his all-Franck program (source: Barbara Owen) Since then, I've heard that considerable work has been done to improve the organ's playability, and more work is hoped for in the future. Perhaps William = can corroborate this?   There was a thread about Immaculate over on pip-ARGUE-l, but certain powers-that-be-in-their-own-mind don't seem to want me over there. Harrrrumph! ...or, "ROT!", as Virgil Fox would say.   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Bartistry locations, was Hook & Hastings From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:56:23 -0700   > >The area where the organ is located will > > become a baptistry!<snip>   > more likely this is a full-fledged pool for dunkin' and would be > distracting in the nave,   The Temple Events center in Denver started out it's life as a Synagogue = over 100 years ago. As synagogues do, it had a chamber behind the speakers platform where the scrolls were kept. At some point in it's life, the Jewish congregation moved out, and it became a Baptist church. Well, the chamber is still there, but the Baptist congregation converted it to a baptistry, without covering over the walls or anything, so it still had = the ornate wall treatments.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: Re: Disney pipe facade From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:03:25 -0500 (CDT)   On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 KriderSM@aol.com wrote: > antoni scott recently asked if anyone on the list likes the Disney = facade. > Yes, I do! I think it is an awesome design, simply because it does = impress > observers by its totally random appearance! I certainly hope that this won't be the only thing that this instrument has going for it.   > IMHO if this breaks the mold of traditional thinking for the perfect > left-right mirror image cases we currently see, that is great. The "mold" was broken years ago--20th century builders have been tripping over themselves, each trying to "outfreak" the other, and non-symmetrical cases have been a part of that. IMNSHO, efforts in this direction still haven't produced a great deal of fruit.   > Perhaps the next generation of pipe organs will find the organ an = integral > part of the room's architecture, with the facade being either totally > integrated in other aspects of the room, or the each of the organs > themsselves (Positive, Great, Swell, Choir) located, surround-sound = style in > all four corners of the church. Again, it's already been done in places like the Atlantic City Auditorium, the Silica Basilica, etc...and now the folks at Rodgers and Allen are jumping on the bandwagon and including antiphonal speakers in their installations. As far as being "integrated" into other aspects of the room, that's a pretty vague statement--what do you mean by it? What really frustrates me is that Mr. Gehry is going to be getting credit for gluing up a miniscule model out of wood scraps. He obviously hasn't given any thought to this instrument outside of his moment of "genius", if you can call it that.   * How on earth is Rosales going to run an action through that mess? Never mind a sensitive, suspended action...he'll be lucky just to get it playable. * How will all these bass pipes be supported? While the design might look cool in a 200:1 scale model, to actually situate a pile of 32's like that will require a nightmarish forest of supports and braces. The design might look good from a distance (or in miniature) but imagine this thing viewed up close for the duration of an entire concert. * Walter Holtkamp has already proven that bass pipes sound best when situated against a solid wall to produce an acoustic "coupling" with the room. Rosales is going to spend a fortune building presentable 32' pipes and getting them to stand up like that...but in the end they won't sound as good and they'll obscure the sound coming from the manual divisions (which I assume will have to be located to the rear) * The horizontal reed (probably the Los Angeles Trumpet?) is far too low on the case. Folks sitting in the rear balcony will be staring straight down into the resonators! The Marcussen at WSU suffers from this same problem, and the effect of the chamade is hideous.   OK, it really burns me to see architects taking credit for a design when they "forget" to deal with a host of real world issues like the above. Just because this design is a real eye-catcher and has a big name behind on it, we should not exempt it from scrutiny--especially when it seems poised to repeat some major mistakes that have already been made! Nonetheless, we can all take solace two facts... 1. Organ builders rarely let architects get away with madness like this. 2. With Rosales' current track record and backlog, this organ will probably never be finished!   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn   "Does it change many dyslexics how to take a lightbulb?"    
(back) Subject: facades old and new From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:42:31 -0700   I'm all for innovative visual approaches to organ-cases ... I'm REALLY fond of some of the contemporary asymmetrical cases, particularly in Scandinavia and Germany ... but there was a REASON for the symmetrical cases of yore ... several reasons, actually ... mostly having to do with blending the sound.   I don't agree that 32' pipes necessarily have to stand against a wall .... most classic encased organs with 32' pipes have them in the facade, if they're principals or violones; yes, a 32' BOURDON might be against the back wall behind the case, and if it were anywhere else, it WOULD block the sound from the pipes behind it, but that's not the case with a well-designed 32' facade of open metal pipes.   Many of Holtamp's designs where the smallest (mixture) pipes are on the front of the chest and the largest pipes on the back of the chest are visually pleasing, but you'll also find that over the years a good number have had clear plexiglass "screech shields" installed in front of them to take the curse off the mixtures (as well as to keep inquiring fingers away from the pipes) ... mixtures were at the back of the chest in classic organs for a REASON (grin), and it wasn't just tuning access.   I don't feature Mannie Rosales putting his name and his reputation on the line for something that can't be built/won't work if it IS built. Why don't we just wait and see?   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Aeolian records From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:46:37 -0700   Anybody know where the Aeolian Co. shop records and opus list currently reside? I presume they still exist.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Aeolian records From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:45:37 EDT   DEar Bud, Didn't Rodgers get those records and all the archives when they first were pushing pipes with digital. If I remember right, they were involved with Ruffatti at the time. Peace, Paul  
(back) Subject: Re: facades old and new From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:13:06 -0500 (CDT)   On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Bud/burgie wrote: > I don't feature Mannie Rosales putting his name and his reputation on > the line for something that can't be built/won't work if it IS built. > Why don't we just wait and see? Bud, Well said...in the final analysis, Rosales is a sufficiently nept builder that we'll have to trust his judgement and wait--no matter how much this design bugs us.   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn   "Does it change many dyslexics how to take a lightbulb?"    
(back) Subject: Re: Aeolian records From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:54:27 -0500   At 11:46 AM -0700 7/10/99, Bud/burgie wrote: >Anybody know where the Aeolian Co. shop records and opus list currently >reside? I presume they still exist.   The Aeolian Opus List has been published in Rollin Smith's book "The Aeolian Pipe Organ and Its Music" published by The Organ Historical = Society (http://www.organsociety.org).   I don't know if the shop records exist but I think that Henry Karl Baker = of The Organ Literature Foundation has a mostly complete set of the Aeolian Company's contracts.   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings From: Prestant16@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:07:34 EDT       > The principal chorus sings like no other. > The reeds, obviously of the French school,     Yet another small correction. The (chorus) reeds are very German, not French, although I don't know of many German Bell Clarinet, obviously = of the French influence. They did not get into too much French reeds until =   about the time the cathedral organ was built. But still there, the great = 16' Bombarde is noticeable different from the reeds made in Paris.   Believe it or not, the Hooks built what can be called "German Romantic" organs. Much different from what we think to be German organs, = not like Bach would have had.   -William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: Hook & Hastings (The "Immaculate Hook) From: Prestant16@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:32:40 EDT   And elaborate on the "Immaculate Hook" I will,   Recently Father Tom Carroll has been appointed administrator. He is a member of the OHS and really appreciates the instrument he has. He has hopes of having us come back and get the Solo back up and working. The organ really needs to be taken out and a new frame built for it. The = Swell bearers (Horizontal pieces holding up the swell division, about 4" thick = by 12" wide and about 15 ft long) have split, and if not repaired right away, =   would have ruined most of the organ. Luckily Lahaise fixed it by bolting = a steel plate to each side of the bearer. Later when the other swell bearer =   was cracking, Noack was taking care of the organ, and repaired it in the = same way. It's interesting that the organ was nearly destroyed 15 years ago, and now there is talk of a complete restoration in the future. I'm sure = many of you know the story of the church, I will not get into that now. Here = is a brief History, dates may not be exact:   -Inaugural Concert was on February 3, 1864. At the time the organ was 3 / = 47 and tracker action (of course) -Walnut case, designed by Patrick Charles Keely -1902 to 1903, organ rebuilt by Hook and Hastings. At that time stops = that were prepared for were added which included a pedal 32' Contra Bourdon*, Great VII Cymbal among other things and a new 7 stop solo division, and = the pitch seemed to be raised. And electrified, now has a beautiful 4 manual French terraced drawknob console, which even the shortest organist can see =   over. -1970s console was rebuilt by Henri Lahaise and Son, which included a new combination action (setter board type) and replacing the English Ivory = keys that were missing.   For you who have missed the post of the spec, here it is (with some corrections):   GREAT: 16' Double Diapason 8' Open Diapason (Forte) 8' Open Diapason (Mezzo) 8' Clarabella 8' Viola da Gamba 4' Octave 4' Harmonic Flute 3' Quint 2' Fifteenth IV Mixture III Scharf? VII Cymbal 16' Trumpet 8' Trumpet 4' Clarion   SWELL: 16' Bourdon 8' Open Diapason 8' Salicional 8' Voix Celeste 8' Quintadena 8' Stopped Diapason 4' Octave 4' VIolina 4' Flauto Traverso 2' Flagolet IV Dolce Cornet 16' Fagotto 8' Cornopean 8' Oboe 8' Vox Humana 4' Clarion   CHOIR (unenclosed) 16' Contra Dolce 8' Open Diapason 8' Viola 8' Dulciana 8' Melodia 4' Octave 4' Fugara 4' Hohl Pfife (a double mouthed Flute d'amour) 2' Flautino 8' Bell Clarinet   SOLO: 8' Open Diapason 8' Concert Flute 4' Harmonic Flute 8' Tuba 8' Orchesteral Clarinet 8' Orchestral Oboe 4' Tuba Clarion   PEDAL: 32' Contra Bourdon 16' Open Diapason 16' Violone 16' Bourdon 12' Quint Flote 8' Flote 8' Violincello 16' Trombone 8' Trumpet   Wind from two inverted fold reservoirs, releathered not long ago by Noack.     -William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: Tuning in Bach's Time - reply From: RMaryman@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:36:33 EDT   In a message dated 99-07-07 19:06:02 EDT, you write:   << First, is it true that when the wind temperature goes up the reeds fly out of tune sharp while the flues go = flat; and the opposite ways when the temperature drops? ...or is it the other = way around? Second, if this is true, how often were these instruments of two hundred years ago tuned? Third, if this is false, then my question is = null and void. >> Actually, Everything goes sharp with an increase in temperature, but the flues react more severely than reeds, as I posted previously. PIANOS and ORGANS react in opposition (Heat makes pianos go FLAT and = organs go SHARP).   Rick M  
(back) Subject: 19th c. builder C.C. Morey (X-post) From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:17:45 -0400 (EDT)   Can anyone supply info on this builder, of Utica, NY? Orpha Ochse says only that he continued the "fine quality" of one Marklove of Utica after the latter's death in the early 90s (p.279). I ask because today I visited the Johnstown Flood Museum in that PA city. Installed there and rehabilitated recently is a 2M Morey. It was supposedly originally in a private home that escaped the 1889 flood [this apparently not congruent with Ochse's early 90s dating]. There allegedly is another like it somewhere. 5 Great ranks, 6 Swell, 1 Pedal, three couplers. Spotted-metal pipes on the Great chest showing behind the decorated zinc basses of the 8' Open in the case. 25-note flat pedal board. Didn't get to play it.   If anyone can shed more light on this builder that I can share with the museum (they know zilch about him), I would appreciate it. Private email probably best, unless you think the info is of general interest.   Thanks in advance, Stan Yoder Pittsburgh