PipeChat Digest #994 - Tuesday, July 20, 1999
 
Philosophy PLUS subbing?
  by "Charles E. Peery" <cpeery19@idt.net>
Holtkamp
  by <WAYNE_BURCHAM@RSAUSA.COM>
PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: Philosophy PLUS subbing?
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
suspend pipechat
  by <SENDSUSAN@aol.com>
Re: Philosophy PLUS subbing?
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
fishy...
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
subbing?
  by "mreeves@vzinet.com" <mreeves@vzinet.com>
Silent Movie w/Theatre Pipe Organ -Chicago (X-posted)
  by "jchabermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com>
Re: fishy...
  by "jchabermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com>
Pee-anners and humidity
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
RE: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Tuning, Humidity, etc.
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
RE: Mason & Hamlin PIPE organs
  by "Jon Roussos" <Jon.Roussos@trw.com>
Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Mason & Hamlin PIPE organs
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
 


(back) Subject: Philosophy PLUS subbing? From: "Charles E. Peery" <cpeery19@idt.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:00:14 -0400   Dear friends,   In June I left my music director position (22 years) after being told = by the new Senior Pastor that he wanted worship music to sound like Top 40 in order to rake in the unchurched. (300 volunteers in the music program. Graded voice and bell choirs, two adult choirs, 2600 members, United Methodist.) The Rev. just wasn't comfortable with our classical = tradition. (Out of five of the music staff, our organist is the only one who remains, but she is hassled weekly by rude treatment and terse memos. I admire = her, I couldn't take it!) Our relationship was outwardly characterized not by contention, but by silence. We didn't cross him, mostly he just didn't deign to speak to us at all except to yell at us in staff meetings, or in poorly written memos spelling out what "you will" do. It took forever to discern his agenda. Finally,in March, he told the Staff Parish Committee that he was not willing to delegate ANY decisions to a musician, including choices of style or individual pieces. His word was to be law, no other perspectives were to be offered. After two or three years of = "establishing a relationship" (read: "obedience"), the musicians MIGHT be allowed a = small degree of input. I just wanted to point out, that despite discussions that "it's = getting better", I don't feel that it is! The operant philosophy in church music these days has deteriorated into: Who's in Power and What Does He (Do = They) Like? The congregation isn't discerning enough to care. When we tried to discuss any of our problems in committees, the response was generally "You music people need to be more laid back, the congregation doesn't care!" Sadly, we found this to be true. They watched the music program be wiped out without much action. Sympathetic words, some letters, but no action.   I have been subbing (organ) for friends during the summer. Does = anyone do this a lot? I'd like suggestions as to whether you: 1)set your own = price or are flexible, depending on what the church can afford 2)mail anything to churches saying that you'll sub? (Does this work or does it end up in some drawer or in the garbage?) 3) have work the whole year or just the summer? In other words, I've been pretty booked up during the summer, = will this all dry up in September?   I enjoy this list, have been lurking up 'til now!   Chuck Peery Ohio  
(back) Subject: Holtkamp From: WAYNE_BURCHAM@RSAUSA.COM Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:12:28 -0400         I fully agree with the comments of Michael Barone recently regarding = Holtkamp consoles. Regardless of your position on Holtkamp organs, if you would = like to understand Walter Holtkamp's thinking, you should read the excellent book = by John Allen Ferguson, "Walter Holtkamp, American Organ Builder," Kent State University Press, Kent, Ohio 44242. I am not an apologist for Holtkamp = organs, although I do rather like the Collegeville, MN organ with its wonderful acoustics, but I do respect Walter Holtkamp as a man of principle and = integrity.   Wayne        
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:35:02 -0400   To all members of the Pipechat List:   Join the IRC Pipechatters on Monday evenings, or Friday evenings, at 9.00 pm Eastern Time.   If you are not too sure how you do it go to our Web Page at the following = URL:   http://www.pipechat.org   We have provided all the necessary information there for you to see how to get on to the IRC.   I hope to see you this evening!   Bob Conway ...   (Beer brewing again, - it's going into the second fermentation bin today, = - maybe bottling in a week or so's time!)  
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy PLUS subbing? From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:35:41 -0400 (EDT)   Chuck, So sorry to hear of your previous situation. It has always amazed me what congregations will take without so much as a whimper. I've seen really great preachers, musicians, and administrators trashed by power-hungry people and the congregation just continues life as usual, poughing on like a bunch of lemmings.   Substituting, for me, has had its moments. I enjoyed the freedom of not having to play every week, the ability to set my own price (especially enjoyable when a church wants to be cheap and calls someone else, only to call again in a few weeks or months because "someone" stank although the price was right). My experience was that subbing was seasonal, but I suppose that varies from region to region. It was also fun to walk into a church, take one look at the organ and say, "You don't really expect me to play THAT!"   I do hope the pendulum is swinging back; my other hope it that I won't get clobbered by it again. Happily, retirement is getting closer!!   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Cowardly dogs bark loudest. -- John Webster    
(back) Subject: suspend pipechat From: SENDSUSAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:47:20 EDT   I am a subscriber at sendsusan.aol and wish to suspend the pipchat news = from Monday, July 19 to Monday July 26. Can this be done for vacationers?   Enjoy all the info on this chatline very much--not too many "real" = organists left, it seems, to talk about the sometimes esoteric concerns of = organists.   Thank you.   Susan N. White sendsusan@aol.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy PLUS subbing? From: DudelK@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:44:01 EDT   In a message dated 99-07-19 07:03:04 EDT, you write:   << I have been subbing (organ) for friends during the summer. Does = anyone do this a lot?   -- I've been doing it for the past few years in the Washington area.   I'd like suggestions as to whether you:   1)set your own price or are flexible, depending on what the church can afford I have pretty much set prices but there is some flexibility. However, I = won't play anywhere for less than my minimum. A lot depends on the church, the organ, the location (for the automotively challenged), and what I call the =   "aggravation factor." Will it be fun, or will it be a hassle? I usually = turn down ones that I don't think will be fun.   2)mail anything to churches saying that you'll sub? (Does this work or = does it end up in some drawer or in the garbage?) Here in the DC area there is a sub list in the AGO directory for the = DC/VA/MD chapters. Mostly, however, it's networking. I usually get jobs on = referrals from friends, and likewise recommend people I know when I can't take a = job.   3) have work the whole year or just the summer? In other words, I've = been pretty booked up during the summer, will this all dry up in September? >>   It tends to vary from year to year. Usually I have the summer completely booked, but this year I have nothing between now and the end of August, although I've had several jobs since Memorial Day. However, in the early = part of the year I was quite busy, and I usually tend to be busy right after holidays when people want to take off or on holiday weekends (govt. = holidays) when people want to get away. I don't go looking for jobs, and usually I = play about 26 Sundays a year, plus some occasional Wednesday nights (XPSci) and = a wedding or a funeral here and there.   For what it's worth . . . Dudel  
(back) Subject: fishy... From: John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:03:57 -0500   Dear Friends,     Has any one had any experience with fish glue? - such as sold by Columbia Leather.   I have a senior group that I have to teach re-doing Wurlitzer primaries, but I'd rather avoid the "hot pot" if I can.   Any ideas on the qualities relative to hot hide glue?   Always in your debt,   John V      
(back) Subject: subbing? From: mreeves@vzinet.com (mreeves@vzinet.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:22:23 -0000   On the topic of subbing;   I'm on the first day of my 2 week vacation, with no sub lined up. I'm in = a small East Texas town, an hour east of Dallas. Is there anyone that = knows of any available subs nearby that would be willing to fill-in. I'm = willing to negotiate a fee, starting at $200 for 2 Sunday Services for 2 Sundays.   If all else fails, I may have to act as my own substitute, as a funeral is already scheduled for this Wednesday.   Help, and Thanks in advance.   Mark Reeves, Dir. Music / Organist First UMC - Canton, Texas 1975 Redman Tracker 2manual/21 ranks.    
(back) Subject: Silent Movie w/Theatre Pipe Organ -Chicago (X-posted) From: "jchabermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:01:36 -0500   Saturday August 7, 1999 at 8PM The Copernicus Foundation and the Silent Film Society of Chicago proudly present DOUGLAS FAIRBANKS in "DON Q Son of Zorro" also starring Marie Astor, Jack MacDonald and Warner Oland. Live photoplay accompaniment by Dennis Scott at the Gateway Grande Organ. For information call (773) 777-9438      
(back) Subject: Re: fishy... From: "jchabermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:25:51 -0500   If past experience with these lists is an indicator you're going to get = lots of opinions.   The choice of Fish Glue vs Hot Glue is a personal one. Either will do the job.   I worked for a local organ firm in the late fifties and we used fish glue almost exclusively for internal chest releathering....pouches, pnuematics etc.   Back then we did quite a bit of Moller servicing which gave me a chance to releather Moller chests pouches by the hundreds,,,also did some Estey pnuematic chests, and our work covered most of the organ manufacturers.   For larger releathering work, such as swell engine pnuematics, packing, reservoirs etc...hot glue was the glue of choice.   One of the advantages of hot glue is that it sets up fast...   One of the disadvantages of hot glue is that it sets up fast.   If your slow and maticulous fish glue...or as we called it cold glue give you more time.   This brings back some memories of days long gone,,,that started every morning with old man Wentz (D.S. Wentz..God rest his soul) coming in and asking = "Is the Hot Glue Hot?"   Hope this helps,   regards,   Jon C. Habermaas -----Original Message----- From: John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> To: pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Cc: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:04 AM Subject: fishy...     >Dear Friends, > > >Has any one had any experience with fish glue? - such as sold by = Columbia >Leather.      
(back) Subject: Pee-anners and humidity From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:07:47 -0500 (CDT)   At 06:07 99-07-18 -0400, you wrote: >>be refilled. In light of our recent discussions, is the humidifier >>supposed to help keep the piano in tune?   It might, though that's not the primary concern when "watering" a piano or harpsichord. The chief danger during winter months is damage caused by drying the instrument. When a soundboard is fixed into the chassis, it's position and size are pretty permanently stuck. If, at some later point in the instrument's life, it's moved into a climate where the humidity is significantly lower than the humidity when it was assembled, the wood will dry out and it will try to shrink...however, the bracing and construction of the instrument prevents this from happening. If the humidity falls further, the soundboard will simply pull itself apart, developing long splits running with the grain across the length of the board! Pianos seem to have less trouble with this than the harpsichord, but it's definitely a major concern for the life of the instrument. This problem is particularly noticable in the large number of "bootleg" pianos from Asian manufacturers being sold by unlicensed dealers here in the US. Regarding the Damp-Chasers (which I believe is a patented brand name), swelling caused by too much humidity doesn't threaten to destroy the instrument, but it does play havoc with the adjustment of the action.   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn   "Does it change many dyslexics how to take a lightbulb?"    
(back) Subject: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:21:01 -0500 (CDT)   List, Yes, the title of the article was a bit inflammatory...but that's what titles are supposed to do. Nonetheless, the article itself was quite well written, and gave a good bird's eye view of the evolution of church music in the latter half of the 20th century. The REAL reason that guitars beat the organ, if it can even be said that they have beaten it, has a lot of roots in the organ itself. Organ-builders of the mid 20th century were still churning out hundreds of miserable, uninspired instruments (some continue even to the present day!); and organists themselves were still sounding out new depths of poor technique and lifeless playing (again, some continue even to the present day). Is there any wonder why the "king" lost its "court"?   Fancy the flames shall fly forth freely...   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn    
(back) Subject: Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:03:00 -0700   Robert, you're absolutely right ... churches with inspiring organists and = good organs continue to prosper. Even churches with inspiring organists and execrable organs continue to prosper, as long as the organist knows how to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (a lot of us do ... I grew up playing some REAL beasties). But what I've heard pass for service-playing AND = organs in some churches would make a strong man (or woman) weep. It's absolutely AMAZING what people will put up with. I've played PIPE organs where the = ONLY working stop control was the CRESCENDO PEDAL. I'm not talking about the combination action ... the stop tabs were either broken off or the stop = rail was dead.   Cheers,   Bud   Robert Horton wrote:   > List, > Yes, the title of the article was a bit inflammatory...but = that's > what titles are supposed to do. Nonetheless, the article itself was = quite > well written, and gave a good bird's eye view of the evolution of church > music in the latter half of the 20th century. > The REAL reason that guitars beat the organ, if it can even be > said that they have beaten it, has a lot of roots in the organ itself. > Organ-builders of the mid 20th century were still churning out hundreds = of > miserable, uninspired instruments (some continue even to the present > day!); and organists themselves were still sounding out new depths of = poor > technique and lifeless playing (again, some continue even to the present > day). Is there any wonder why the "king" lost its "court"? > > Fancy the flames shall fly forth freely... >    
(back) Subject: RE: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:27:44 -0700   > Yes, the title of the article was a bit inflammatory. > The REAL reason that guitars beat the organ... > Organ-builders of the mid 20th century were still churning out hundreds = of > miserable, uninspired instruments > and organists themselves were still sounding out new depths of poor > technique and lifeless playing   For shame, I haven't read the article. If someone could re-post the reference, I'll look it up.   However, the reasons given here make sense -- Many of the organs built in this century that I have seen haven't exactly had the power to raise excitment -- screamers that made the dogs cry, or overly unified boxes of whistles just don't hold a candle to some of the magnificent instruments = of the past. And I'm not saying that all the organs were bad -- but enough = to make this a big part of the problem.   And while poor technique is a problem, personally I think the lifeless playing is more a factor. People aren't going to want to listen to music that doesn't reach the inner soul -- music should inspire, uplift, and = edify a person. You can get all the notes perfect, play a perfect tempo, but if the playing is dead, the music is too.   Dennis Goward    
(back) Subject: Re: Tuning, Humidity, etc. From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:58:54 -0400   Yep, humidifiers in the winter, damp chasers in the summer, welcome to New York where if you don't like the weather, hang around a few minutes, it'll change. The school music teacher got a humidifier for our piano. She said = that since they have been installed on all the pianos in the school, they only have to be tuned once a year, and sometimes not that. So I buy distilled water in the grocery store for 69 cents, and it takes a jug about once a month most of the year. We did have to tell people about that little blinking light, though. The piano is not going to blow up! It just needs a drink. Diane S. (straight@infoblvd.net)    
(back) Subject: RE: Mason & Hamlin PIPE organs From: Jon Roussos <Jon.Roussos@trw.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:42:19 -0700   There was / is a Mason and Hamlin organ at St John the Evangelist in San Diego. I do not know if it still exists since it is in the process of = being replaced with a Organ Clearing House tracker.   I have only heard the Mason and Hamlin played for services and the sound is/was uninspiring. This is at the hands of a very competent organist. = The organ chamber is to one side of the choir loft and the sound has no direct path into the nave, which pay have a lot to do with the way it sounded.   I do not know the details but apparently it has been a struggle getting = the tracker installed. Jon Roussos   <Bud said>     I may have asked this before, but has anybody ever seen or heard a Mason & Hamlin PIPE organ? Don't think many were built ... the one I've heard of had chrome-plated METAL windchests (!) and brass fittings in the toeboards for the pipes ... I think the action was tubular pneumatic. Never got to hear it, unfortunately.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:58:36 -0400 (EDT)     >The REAL reason that guitars beat the organ, > if it can even be said that they have beaten it, > has a lot of roots in the organ itself. >Organ-builders of the mid 20th century were > still churning out hundreds of miserable, > uninspired instruments (some continue even > to the present day!); and organists > themselves were still sounding out new > depths of poor technique and lifeless playing > (again, some continue even to the present > day). Is there any wonder why the "king" lost > its "court"? Much as I hate to do it, I must disagree with the esteemed Mr. Horton!! ;-) There are plenty of fine organs, organists, choirs and music programs, that were displaced by guitars and their ilk. There are always the incompetent standing in the wings waiting to perform. All they needed was the go-ahead from the market-crazed clergy whose musical taste is governed primarily by what other people like. In their desire for relevance they had to attack the traditional church as the reason for decline--heaven knows it had nothing to do with drivelous sermons and mamby-pamby theology! Traditional music is having a hard time making a come-back primarily because clergy cannot admit they were wrong and therefore must still come up with a new solution rather than a return to tried and true. Classical music will triumph again, although it may take time. Of course, organs will again rise to prominence as soon as people redevelop an appreciation for real, live music.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Cowardly dogs bark loudest. -- John Webster    
(back) Subject: Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:23:20 -0400 (EDT)   Robert, I don't think you can totally blame lame organs and organists. I do think that the pop music culture spawned the contemporary genre (I do think this is a legitimate genre, folks!!). As I always say, there is a wealth of material in the CCM genre that is worthwhile and deserves to stand alongside (yes, alongside) the music of other genres and eras. --Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: How guitars REALLY beat out the organ From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:18:57 -0500   Bud/burgie wrote: > > Robert, you're absolutely right ... churches with inspiring organists = and good > organs continue to prosper. Even churches with inspiring organists and > execrable organs continue to prosper, as long as the organist knows how = to > make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (a lot of us do ... I grew up = playing > some REAL beasties). But what I've heard pass for service-playing AND = organs > in some churches would make a strong man (or woman) weep. It's = absolutely > AMAZING what people will put up with. I've played PIPE organs where the = ONLY > working stop control was the CRESCENDO PEDAL. I'm not talking about the > combination action ... the stop tabs were either broken off or the stop = rail   Are you saying that being a good musician might be a good idea? Whoever heard of such an idea? <g> Right on there, brother!   John Speller, St. Louis, Mo.  
(back) Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin PIPE organs From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:29:41 -0700   Jon - that's the very organ I'm speaking of (grin). Here's the story on = it: it was built (or bought second-hand) for the ORIGINAL St. John's Church down = the street (now the Aseltine School Auditorium), so it was never intended for = the big church in the first place, but it was moved there anyway ... I think = at one point Lyle told me it had a Gottfried Oboe which had been substituted for = one of the ranks, but that was the only reed it ever had.   Unfortunately I never heard it ... Lyle Blackinton salvaged it ... let me = root around here and see if I can find the spec ... well, I can't find it, but = it was 10 ranks ... I think it was something like:   GREAT   8' Open Diapason 8' Doppel Flute 8' Dolce 8' Dolce Celeste 4' Harmonic Flute   SWELL   8' Stopped Diapason 8' Viola 8' Vox Celeste 4' Fugara (4' Flute, possibly)   PEDAL   16' Bourdon (possibly an extension from the manuals) 16' Lieblich (by pressure valve) 8' Flute (extension)   Typical turn-of-the-century Roman Catholic stock-model "choir organ" for a = small church ... no reeds, no upperwork, etc. Don't know anything about the stop controls or couplers.   Of COURSE it would have been totally lost in big St. John's, PARTICULARLY because it faced north in the choir loft, rather than east (I guess = because of the big west window) ... I understand the "new" tracker also sits off to = one side, but facing east. And yes, the tracker installation has been a = continuing problem.   Cheers,   Bud   Jon Roussos wrote:   > There was / is a Mason and Hamlin organ at St John the Evangelist in San > Diego. I do not know if it still exists since it is in the process of = being > replaced with a Organ Clearing House tracker. > > I have only heard the Mason and Hamlin played for services and the sound > is/was uninspiring. This is at the hands of a very competent organist. = The > organ chamber is to one side of the choir loft and the sound has no = direct > path into the nave, which pay have a lot to do with the way it sounded. > > I do not know the details but apparently it has been a struggle getting = the > tracker installed. > Jon Roussos > > <Bud said> > > I may have asked this before, but has anybody ever seen or heard a Mason > & Hamlin PIPE organ? Don't think many were built ... the one I've heard > of had chrome-plated METAL windchests (!) and brass fittings in the > toeboards for the pipes ... I think the action was tubular pneumatic. > Never got to hear it, unfortunately. > > Cheers, > > Bud > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org