PipeChat Digest #998 - Friday, July 23, 1999
 
Re: the painful fall
  by "Cheryl Hart" <info@copemanhart.co.uk>
in defense of being multi-facted
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: in defense of being multi-facted
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: (No subject)
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: certain composers...
  by "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net>
Re: (No subject)
  by "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com>
Re: (No subject)
  by "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com>
Re: in defense of being multi-facted
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: in defense of being multi-facted
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
congregational surveys
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: congregational surveys
  by "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com>
JFK, Jr. Memorial Services
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Windchest types
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Telco connectors
  by "J. VANDERSTAD" <dcob@nac.net>
Re: Old St. Pat's Organ
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Telco connectors
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Telco connectors
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: JFK, Jr. Memorial Services
  by "Sand Lawn" <sandlawn@prodigy.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: the painful fall From: Cheryl Hart <info@copemanhart.co.uk> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:33:39 +0100   Yes, Bruce, it's things. ;-)   Cheryl   >Interesting, I was discussing the interviews for my previous RC position >with a friend "in the know." It was interesting to us that when a >person is hired to do CCM, that is all they have to do. However, is a >person hired to do traditional, then they must also know CCM, jazz, >folk, rock, C&W, broadway, and Sesame Street and be able to perform all >with equal perfection. Are things off balance, or is it just me? > >Bruce & the Baskerbeagles >~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~     Copeman Hart & Company Ltd Organ Builders ENGLAND   http://www.copemanhart.co.uk    
(back) Subject: in defense of being multi-facted From: RMB10@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:32:24 EDT   >>These people are ORGANISTS, not PIANISTS and are just not able to adapt > >these modern tunes, with syncopation etc. to the organ. >Interesting, I was discussing the interviews for my previous RC position >with a friend "in the know." It was interesting to us that when a >person is hired to do CCM, that is all they have to do. However, is a >person hired to do traditional, then they must also know CCM, jazz, >folk, rock, C&W, broadway, and Sesame Street and be able to perform all >with equal perfection. Are things off balance, or is it just me?   What is wrong with having a musician that can do more than just one style = of music? Not wanting to boast, I was taught from an early age that a well rounded musician must be able to play all styles of music, be able to play in any key, be able to transpose = at the drop of a hat, etc. All I know is that this flexibility has served me well. My college organ professor about fell off the bench laughing one day when I came in for my lesson playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in F Major. I told him that I = didn't like that fugue too much and that I thought the D Major fugue (BWV 532) = fit the style of the toccata much better. He said "let me hear it." I = proceeded to play that fugue transposing it on the spot from D to F. Just the = other day, I was accompanying a soloist, who told me that the solo was a little = too high. I just asked him what key he'd like to sing it in, and he was = shocked that I didn't have to use a transposer.   Organists these days are so unprepared for general musical life. People = can only do one thing.....many people come out of school only playing huge = organ pieces, but can't play a hymn. My first organ teacher made sure I knew the hymnal backwards and forwards, =   transposing each hymn into unrelated keys with short modulations between verses. I was also expected to be able to sit down and sight read anthems =   and accompaniments for vocal solos. I was also expected to be able to = play a gospel hymn and work a modulation right into a traditional hymn. It was also expected that I be able to play show tunes, children's songs, major organ works, etc., and that I should be able to do them at a touch of a piston. This kind of =   training started at an early age, and I didn't know any different. I = can't thank my early teachers enough for insisting on me being able to do these kinds of things. They worked with me until I =   became proficient, and my high-school and college music professors = continued working to constantly develop these skills to a higher level.   What I have found is that being able to play in many styles, transpose, = play by sight and/or by ear has helped me tremendously. When I worked at = Calvary Church, Charlotte, NC, a usual church service used a good 8-10 different musical styles in ONE service. I would hit a piston and go from a hymn = based prelude into a solid traditional hymn, change keys, go into a gospel hymn, =   and end up with a praise chorus, followed by a big anthem, a contemporary vocal solo, a couple more hymns, and end with some major toccata as a postlude. = Luckily, I had 205 ranks of organ to work with, but the organ could speak many languages, so the organist had to, also.   It can be and should be expected for a church musician to be = multi-faceted, and it's not out of line for a church to feel that way.     Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: in defense of being multi-facted From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:37:26 -0400 (EDT)   Montey, You missed my point..... which was....   that traditional musicians are expected to bend, compromise, include and otherwise cooperate and be all things to all people....   notice I did not say that this is necessarily bad or that I was unable to do it....   but that the folk-folks were neither expected nor (usually) willing to offer the same consideration. Much of the tension between traditional and CCM camps is due to CCM's exclusionary ideology, which does not include the traditional for the most part.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Cowardly dogs bark loudest. -- John Webster    
(back) Subject: Re: (No subject) From: KriderSM@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:43:55 EDT   You say "tomayto" and I say "Tomahto"; Big 32' Posaune deal... If this thread resurrects the repulsive and redundantly endless CCM = thread, please, PLEASE don't hide it behind a "(No subject)" heading. At least, let us who don't care move quickly to more educational and satisfying strands.   Stan Krider   Someone commented that:   >>the CCM people want more and more and more and ARE NOT SATISFIED until all traditional music is gone.<snip> ...and, after awhile, the attendence goes down and down and down..<<   Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) responded:   >And the powers that be ask, "Where are the funds?"    
(back) Subject: Re: certain composers... From: "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:52:15 -0400   Hey, Carlo at al.=20   At 05:05 AM 7/20/99 EDT, you wrote: >other than their most well-known compositions.=20   >Lynnwood Farnam (other than tocatta on "o sons and daughters") On the "other" list we've been talking about his arrangement of the Dupr=E9 Cortege and Litanie. Other than that, I no nothing.   >Marcel Lanquetuit (other than tocatta in D major) Corliss Arnold shows no other listing for Marcel (the senior, did you know there is a junior?) other than the Toccata. Diane and I chatted about this once years ago when she was playing this ol' trashy tune a lot, but we never came up with anything. Arty Nobile has told me, by the way, there are a couple of other pieces by him, but I've never seen them.   >John Weaver (other than tocatta in G major) There are a bunch of other pieces by Weaver. Check in the catalogue of his publisher (Boosey, if I remember). Some are quite profound, musicially, and none, if I recall, are as "happy" as his Toccata.   >Percy E. Fletcher (other than Fountain Reverie and Festival Tocatta) That's all I play of Percy. Maybe he's just a "two tune" wonder!        
(back) Subject: Re: (No subject) From: "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:08:54 -0700     > > >The only idea that occurs to me is that maybe a survey should be taken = of > > the membership to see what they like? Would they continue to come and = give > >their money if everything is CCM gospel stuff? > > I find this a very offensive view of our role as leaders in the church. = We > as organists, organist/choirmasters, music directors, etc... should be > expected to maintain the tradition of good church music in whichever > denomination we are employed. John, you seem to have misunderstood my comment. I am also not sure why = you see the suggestion as offensive; no offensive is intended. I was = suggesting that if the congregation really did not support the direction the = leadership was taking the music then letting them know that might help gain support = for maintaining that tradition of excellence.   > Should the consensus change, in the churches > in which we serve, then I feel it is our prerogative to either "stand = our > ground" or search elsewhere for more suitable employment. Life is too = short > to be unhappy and to fight losing battles :-) Yes, that is always the alternative. An earlier comment by someone was talking about the effect of this direction being dwindling membership and = I was only suggesting a possible way to bring this to the leadership's attention. Perhaps if they knew financial support would dwindle they might be more willing to rethink their position on the music.   Jason  
(back) Subject: Re: (No subject) From: "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:11:33 -0700     > << he only idea that occurs to me is that maybe a survey should be taken = of > the membership to see what they like? >> > > Oops, sorry... I also meant to say that our roles as music leaders are = not > to be governed by popular opinion polls (as certain politicians do). = But > rather, we are hired for our expertise and leadership... how can we in = good > conscience let lay people run our music programs??? If we do allow = popular > opinion to dictacte the church's music then we are no more than = spineless > puppets who are obsolete and we should look for other vocations or = postions > where our talents are appreciated. > > Sorry for sermonizing ... but this really ruffles my feathers! > A sensitive topic, but I was also not suggesting that lay people run the music program. Unless I misunderstood an earlier comment, which is = possible, I was attempting to find support within the congregation for maintaining = the traditional excellence in music which. It sounded like the leadership just needed to know they were headed in the wrong direction and that the membership did not really approve ... maybe I got it wrong.   Jason  
(back) Subject: Re: in defense of being multi-facted From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:51:36 -0700     Bruce Corneley wrote: '"Much of the tension between traditional >and CCM camps is due to CCM's exclusionary ideology, which does not >include the traditional for the most part.   This is true. It really is a question of theology and dogma--as the = author of the article on guitars and organs pointed out: "Since the 1950s, denominational divisions have steadily become less important in American church life.... But at bottom we are all still sectarians; we still = prefer to congregate with the like minded. Our new sectarianism is a = sectarianism of worship style. The new sectarian creeds are dogmas of music. Worship seminars are the seminaries of the new sectarianism; their directors are its theologians. The ministers of the new sectarianism are our church worship leaders." In other words, there is less difference between Presbyterians and Methodists than between those who value good music and those who don't.   And, as B.C. maintains, the dyed-in-the-wool (or dyed-in-the-blood-of-the-lamb, for an alternate ovine metaphor) CCM'ers, being doctrinal purists, appear to want to have it their own way only, while many of us traditionalists are willing to be catholic about it, and let a hundred flowers bloom--another point the article makes, BTW: "Does an openness to the varied musical expressions of different Christian cultures and subcultures leave us stuck in relativism, the tar baby of contemporary secular thought? By no means. It is merely to remember that the God who created this world did so with exuberant extravagance, his unchanging purpose often hidden in a tumbling cascade of variety. The resulting multiplicity has, ever since, been the medium of an infinitely dexterous Holy Artist, furthering the work of redemption in whatever cultural forms human beings have been able to devise. The Bible has four different Gospels; no single one of them tells us the whole truth about = the life of Jesus. Likewise, no single musical style brings to full flower more than a few of the many possibilities for communion with God."   Will openness win out, or are we suckers to let them make inroads? That = is the question.   R. Runyon      
(back) Subject: Re: in defense of being multi-facted From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:38:37 -0700       RMB10@aol.com wrote:   > (snip) > > What is wrong with having a musician that can do more than just one = style of > music? Not wanting to boast, I was taught from an early age that a well > rounded musician must be able to > play all styles of music, be able to play in any key, be able to = transpose at > the drop of a hat, etc.   And let all the organists say "AMEN!"   > > All I know is that this flexibility has served me well. My college = organ > professor about fell off the bench laughing one day when I came in for = my > lesson playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in F Major. I told him that I = didn't > like that fugue too much and that I thought the D Major fugue (BWV 532) = fit > the style of the toccata much better. He said "let me hear it." I = proceeded > to play that fugue transposing it on the spot from D to F.   Playing pieces in any key was part of my training too ...   > Just the other > day, I was accompanying a soloist, who told me that the solo was a = little too > high. I just asked him what key he'd like to sing it in, and he was = shocked > that I didn't have to use a transposer.   I'm getting old, so I have to work at it a little more ... I DO use the transposer on the occasionally, but I accompany most of our soloists on = the piano .... no transposer there!   > > > Organists these days are so unprepared for general musical life. People = can > only do one thing.....many people come out of school only playing huge = organ > pieces, but can't play a hymn.   How many times have I said THAT? I've auditioned people who can play a = Franck Chorale from memory, but not the Doxology (!).   > > My first organ teacher made sure I knew the hymnal backwards and = forwards, > transposing each hymn into unrelated keys with short modulations between > verses. I was also expected to be able to sit down and sight read = anthems > and accompaniments for vocal solos. I was also expected to be able to = play a > gospel hymn and work a modulation right into a traditional hymn. > It was also expected that I be able to play show tunes, children's = songs, > major organ works, etc., > and that I should be able to do them at a touch of a piston. This kind = of > training started at an early age, and I didn't know any different. I = can't > thank my early teachers enough for insisting > on me being able to do these kinds of things. They worked with me until = I > became proficient, and my high-school and college music professors = continued > working to constantly develop these skills to a higher level.   I DID have to learn orchestration and choral arranging more-or-less on my = own, but I had a very solid theory and composition background to build on.   > > > What I have found is that being able to play in many styles, transpose, = play > by sight and/or by ear has helped me tremendously. When I worked at = Calvary > Church, Charlotte, NC, a usual church service used a good 8-10 different > musical styles in ONE service. I would hit a piston and go from a hymn = based > prelude into a solid traditional hymn, change keys, go into a gospel = hymn, > and end up with a praise chorus, followed by a big anthem, a = contemporary > vocal solo, > a couple more hymns, and end with some major toccata as a postlude. = Luckily, > I had 205 ranks of organ to work with, but the organ could speak many > languages, so the organist had to, also. > > It can be and should be expected for a church musician to be = multi-faceted, > and it's not out of line for a church to feel that way. > > Monty Bennett >   We had a really fun gospel hymn sing after chant practice on Wednesday = night (the Rector had gone home) ... I don't know if we'll ever incorporate it into = the service. I'm less skilled with CCM, but if I saw that it served a PASTORAL = and EVANGELISTIC purpose, I'd learn to do it, and do it RIGHT (like I do = everything ELSE I do) (grin).   Cheers,   Bud St. Matthew's-in-the-Mall Newport Beach CA USA    
(back) Subject: congregational surveys From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:46:54 -0700   I was once subjected to a congregational survey about the music ... the parish had 1000 communicants; an average of 700 showed up every Sunday; forty-five people returned the survey; of those, twenty-five were negative. On the strength of those twenty-five negative responses, I was fired. I later learned that one was from the local undertaker, who "bankrolled" the parish. So much for the will of the majority (who obviously either thought things were OK and/or didn't care enough one way or the other to return the survey).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC tonight at 9.00pm Eastern Time From: Bob Conway <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:36:44 -0400   To all members of the Pipechat List:   Join the IRC Pipechatters on Monday evenings, or Friday evenings, at 9.00 pm Eastern Time.   If you are not too sure how you do it go to our Web Page at the following = URL:   http://www.pipechat.org   We have provided all the necessary information there for you to see how to get on to the IRC.   I hope to see you this evening!   Bob Conway ...   Beer brewing again, 60 bottles filled this morning, - ready to drink in about a month's time!  
(back) Subject: Re: congregational surveys From: "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:55:29 -0700   > I was once subjected to a congregational survey about the music ... the > parish had 1000 communicants; an average of 700 showed up every Sunday; > forty-five people returned the survey; of those, twenty-five were > negative. On the strength of those twenty-five negative responses, I was > fired. I later learned that one was from the local undertaker, who > "bankrolled" the parish. So much for the will of the majority (who > obviously either thought things were OK and/or didn't care enough one > way or the other to return the survey).   Sadly, I guess it's no different in churches than in government ... he who pays the most gets the most and the majority don't even vote. That's so contrary to the very principles upon which this country was founded ... grrrrr!   Jason  
(back) Subject: JFK, Jr. Memorial Services From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:38:28 -0400   I've not sat down and watched an entire memorial service for JFK, Jr., but the 5 or so minutes I've watched, I have not heard a pipe organ. When the press shot a picture of the processional at the begining of the service at the St. Pat's Old Church in Manhatten (I think), I heard a soloist signing and was playing a VERY tinny sounding guitar. Has anybody else heard or even SEEN a pipe organ console, facade, or the entire insturment in any one of these service's? (Or is it just be cause the organists won't play the contemperary music that JFK, Jr. liked?) (grin) (Following the traditional organist/CCM thread)     Jason Comet bombarde8@juno.com |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/22 M.P. Moller pipe organ O ~20 member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Windchest types From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:39:47 -0400   What kinds of Windchests would be best (electric action only) for a pipe organ that is the highest point of the church (40-50 feet from the nave floor, in a building that has old steam heat in Winter, D R A M A T I C temp. and humid. changed in the Summer/Fall/Spring, and has no air conditioning? Keep in mind that you have a 30-40 foot chamber with a 7.5 foot depth in the middle, and a 3-4 foot depth on the sides with sloping walls, and 25 feet wide. We would also like to locate the blower closer to the organ (preferable in a "room" in the organ chamber that is sound-deadened).   I play a 2/22 1913/1960 (new console, revoiced, electrified, butchered, etc...) Moller pipe organ (Opus# 1543) and the windchests have not been releathered since they were installed (or no record of it). Now, it's not uncommon for me to climb up into the organ chamber and pull a cyphering pipe after the prelude, just before the opening hymn sequence. Why, just last week, the entire 8' Gt Open Diapason rank wouldn't turn off for me.   The organ is also set-up or arranged in the chamber in a very illogiacal manner. The Great Windchest is located approx. 4.5' off the floor, next to the door that you use to enter and exit the choir loft, the pipework on that chest is mitered to 6', then the Swell is directly above that. (the mitred GT. pipes are attached to the Sw. chest) Then the 16' Open "Wood" (Diapason) is located on the back wall to the left of the Gt./Sw. Chests. and the Bourdon is raised infront of the mouths of the Open for speech. The rest of the pedal pipes (8' Octave and Bass Flute, 4'/2' Gedeckt Ext. are located in different places on the chamber walls, floor, and in the facade (8' Octave bottom 27-29 notes) Not to mention the organ is in a B A D need for revoicing and fixing V E R Y bad speech impediments and regulating.   I have designed (a new) organ layout that would put the Great and Swell and Choir (new) organs on the same level with the top of the chests located right at the base of the facade pipes. (7.5' off floor of chamber) and a Solo organ located above one of the chests with an en Chamade Trumpet (or two) located on either/or/both sides of the Solo box. The only thing I don't know about is where the Pedal pipes will go. (all pedal pipes to be replaced with metal pipes of either tin or zink.) You have anywhere from 5' to 6.5' from the floor of the chamber to the bottom of the Gt/Sw/Ch windchests. (to be added: 32' Principal and/or 32' Lieblich Gedeckt/Bourdon exts., 16' Lieblich Gedeckt, 32/16/8/4 High pressure reed IV Mixture, ect......)   If anyone could advise me as to what desicions to make, please do so I can get a very easy-maintinance organ that will last longer than this present organ has which has come to the end of it's life.   Also, this is a traditional church gone CCM. When the organ was installed, it was designed for the traditional hymns and the responces in the traditional UCC liturgy, but now it is not even beginning to be a good foundation for the many Anthems, (Gospel, Contemp., traditional) the MANY soloists that perform each week, the many Contemp. Hymns that they sing, (with piano accomp. with the running 8th/16th notes accompaning a stronger Solo or Melody) the organ also doesn't have the features it needs to be an instrument for impovisation that I have to do between the prayers, hymns, etc.....   Thanks,   Jason Comet bombarde8@juno.com |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/22 M.P. Moller pipe organ O ~20 member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Telco connectors From: "J. VANDERSTAD" <dcob@nac.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:29:56 -0400   Hello Listers I have a 6 rank unit organ here which needs to be re-wired. Or rather, the cables have to be re-connected. I have been thinking about 25 pin data cable connectors. Are they available solderless? I've been thinking myself about using RJ-45 connectors. If anyone can fill me in on their experiences, I would appreciate it. Jan Vanderstad  
(back) Subject: Re: Old St. Pat's Organ From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:00:26 -0500   Jason   The organ was used - at least a heard a bit of it while at a neighbor's house yesterday evening. I did hear some prelude music behind all the talking of the commentators and also it was used to accompany the Responsorial Psalm.   Here is a link to the Church's web site with a description of the organ. http://www.oldsaintpatricks.org/organ.htm   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Telco connectors From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:08:00 -0500   >Hello Listers >I have a 6 rank unit organ here which needs to be re-wired. Or rather, >the cables have to be re-connected. >I have been thinking about 25 pin data cable connectors. Are they >available solderless? >I've been thinking myself about using RJ-45 connectors. >If anyone can fill me in on their experiences, I would appreciate it. >Jan Vanderstad   I don't think you want to use RJ-45 connectors - they only handle 8 wires. And yes, you can get 25 pin data cable connectors that are solderless but they are a B***H to work with.   I would suggest going to Graybar and getting 25 pair phone cables with attached Amphonel (sp?) plugs. Each cable comes with a male and female end - you can cut the cable into two pieces and the plugs will then mate together and lock together with a set screw. Graybar usually carries them in various lengths.   David    
(back) Subject: Re: Telco connectors From: John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:25:13 -0500   >Hello Listers >I have a 6 rank unit organ here which needs to be re-wired. Or rather, >the cables have to be re-connected.   I've said it before, the absolute cheapest way to get a most reliable connector system is to befriend a Telco employee and find out where = they're redoing a commercial building. Often the the ready connecterized cables 50 pins or multiples there-of are avaialble for picking out of the dumpster. If you use the punch block system with it you can arrange your own break-outs like on spreader boards.   I hear the stuff is not that expensive to buy either.   John V      
(back) Subject: Re: JFK, Jr. Memorial Services From: "Sand Lawn" <sandlawn@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:38:45 -0700   The organ at Old St. Patrick's in NYC heard yesterday at the JFK, Jr. funeral is an 1868 three manual Erben. I was very pleased to hear it used at all.   Sand Lawn     >I've not sat down and watched an entire memorial service for JFK, Jr., >but the 5 or so minutes I've watched, I have not heard a pipe organ. > >Jason Comet >bombarde8@juno.com