PipeChat Digest #941 - Saturday, June 19, 1999
 
Re: village organists redux
  by "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com>
Re: choir versus organ (NOT!)
  by <CHERCAPA@aol.com>
PLEASE READ Re: virtuosic hymn-playing, etc.
  by "ADMINISTRATION" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.
  by "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com>
Re: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy
  by "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com>
Re: trained or untrained?
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: St. Sulpice
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: virtuosic hymn-playing, etc.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: sung vs said
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Fw: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Half-trained organists vs. no organist
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: hymn-playing, etc.
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
&$^*(%$ wrong button, please delete last message
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
Royal Wedding Music
  by <douglas@blackiris.com>
Re: organ transplant(s)
  by <ManderUSA@aol.com>
Lionel Dakers
  by "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: village organists redux From: "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:33:57 +0100   Yes, well, now it's all becoming much clearer, isn't it?   If you have demanding, daily liturgical requirements (as do one or two Churches here in Birmingham) then you require a full-time musician, and you must be prepared to pay him, because his Church duties will prevent him from taking secular employment.   If you have an equally demanding, but only SUNDAY requirement then, clearly, that is not a "job". That is more a hobby.   One must compare like with like.   On the "Organ Scholarship" thing, why don't you:-   A. Locate a couple or three teenagers (you only need one, but take three = as not all will stay the course) with good keyboard skills. They may be Church Members. They may be family = of church members, or you may need to go outside the Church to find them - local schools etc.   B. YOU teach them to play the Organ liturgically. You do this for FREE. In return, they help you FOR FREE once they have reached a level when they can do something useful. (They will be able to do SOMETHING useful quite soon).   That's what I've been doing for the last decade. Easy. "Grow your own Assistant". Works like a dream.   MOC.   -----Original Message----- From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> To: organchat <organchat@onelist.com>; pipechat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 01:32 Subject: village organists redux     >I've done the village organist bit, and it's great fun. In Cincinnati >there was a beautiful old Anglo-Catholic church called St. Michael and >All Angels that had fallen on evil days (mostly due to tinkering with >the liturgy, I have to add). > >Several organists (myself included) took turns bringing our choirs down >to St. Michael's to sing Evensong on Sundays and Mass on Holy Days just >to keep the doors open. > >When I was recovering from one of my surgeries, I played in a delightful >little Episcopal church on the edge of the desert here in California ... >I went to Mass there for the first time, discovered they had no >organist, and offered to play. By the time I left, they had a choir >again (for the first time in twenty years) and had placed an order for a >new Allen to replace the moribund Hammond Concert Model (yes, you CAN >kill a Hammond, if you don't oil its parts in a church where the temp in >the summer exceeded 120F ... the speaker cones in the box up by the peak >of the roof were positively CRUMBLING.) > >I have nothing but the greatest respect for unpaid village organists who >keep the music going, year after year. > >The number of full-time Anglican organists in the U.S. IS dwindling, and >yes, we are (and always have been) a minority, but at least the larger >city churches and churches like St. Matthew's with VERY exacting >liturgical requirements seem to manage to find the money somewhere. In >fairness, the average income in Newport Beach is well in excess of $100K >(grin). It's a VEDDY upscale area ... > >Cheers, > >Bud > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: choir versus organ (NOT!) From: CHERCAPA@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:46:27 EDT   Dear Bud, I was looking through the classified of the recent AGO magazine = and there is a Allen, I assume Custom xii in New york City that a church is getting rid of. That's three manual, close to `1000 oscillators" with an acceptable sound. Don';t know what it would cost to pick up and ship to = the West Coast but it's worth a look and a call. Phone number is in the advertisement. Peace, Paul  
(back) Subject: PLEASE READ Re: virtuosic hymn-playing, etc. From: ADMINISTRATION <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 07:40:59 -0500   Folks   I understand that there are some very divergent ideas on this subject but in the process let's not flame each other and start making derogatory statements about the skills, ideas, education, etc. of others on the list.   This morning I got the Daily Statistics for yesterday and it was the highest day in the history of PipeChat for the number of postings. BUT = way too many of them were getting out of hand. And as I am going through the various postings I am greatly disturbed by the attitude of some of them. We have many different levels of musical skills and talent represented on this list playing for many different churches with diverse musical requirements. I see no reason for ANYONE to flame any other member of the list because of this. Hopefully, each of us on the list that plays for a church is doing the best we can and is doing it for the Glory of God.   David   ******************************** David Scribner Co-Owner - Technical Administratior PipeChat   850-478-9635 mailto:david@blackiris.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:58:31 -0400 (EDT)   John, Big degrees prove very little. Some of the best service players I've heard don't have big degrees, some don't have degrees at all. It is very possible to get excellent training without going to college (not to diminish its importance). Some of the worst service players, and literature players for that matter, that I've heard have BIG degrees. The main ingredient for being a good organist is love of music and the instrument. The desire to learn and improve will generally get the work done.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT)   Even though an organist may not be professional, if they are doing the work of an organist they are taking part in our profession and are thereby a reflection upon it.   As Lionel Dakers told a group at an RSCM workshop once when someone said, "I'm only a volunteer" : The only difference between a volunteer and a professional is compensation. If you volunteer to be in the choir, you have the same responsibilities as a paid member to learn the music, attend rehearsals and services, and use your voice in the best possibly way.   I think the same applies to organists.   But, whatever you do while playing the organ in church is a reflection on all organists. The same for Juilliard-trained organists who run motorcycle repair shops for fun and are a relection on motorcycle mechanics.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:17:52 -0400 (EDT)   Thanks for the nice compliment. Much as I loathe happy-crappy, I am often moved when worshipping with them. My distress comes from their intolerance and desire to destroy and elimination that which has nurtured me and provided me with means to worship the God I love.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church. From: "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:13:47 +0100   I think I may have attended that Lionel Dakers workshop.   Did he not, in fact, say that the only "voluntary" thing about a Church Choir is whether or not you choose to join, and that if you DO choose to join, a whole lot of things thereafter become compulsory ?   I remember thinking it was a good point.   Dear God in Heaven - must have been nigh-on 20 years ago, or more !!     MOC.   -----Original Message----- From: bruce cornely <rohrschok8@webtv.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 02:11 Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.     Even though an organist may not be professional, if they are doing the work of an organist they are taking part in our profession and are thereby a reflection upon it.   As Lionel Dakers told a group at an RSCM workshop once when someone said, "I'm only a volunteer" : The only difference between a volunteer and a professional is compensation. If you volunteer to be in the choir, you have the same responsibilities as a paid member to learn the music, attend rehearsals and services, and use your voice in the best possibly way.   I think the same applies to organists.   But, whatever you do while playing the organ in church is a reflection on all organists. The same for Juilliard-trained organists who run motorcycle repair shops for fun and are a relection on motorcycle mechanics.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy From: "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:14:29 +0100   Yes, I'll go with all that wholeheartedly.   MOC   -----Original Message----- From: bruce cornely <rohrschok8@webtv.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 02:18 Subject: Re: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy     Thanks for the nice compliment. Much as I loathe happy-crappy, I am often moved when worshipping with them. My distress comes from their intolerance and desire to destroy and elimination that which has nurtured me and provided me with means to worship the God I love.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: trained or untrained? From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:29:09 -0400 (EDT)   >If we do our best, then in the eyes of our > congregations, we may very well be the best > organists, in their worlds. Carlo, I think you have inadvertently hit the nail on the head with regard to the problem. When an incompetent organist is considered "the best organist" in anyone's world, we are all in big trouble. I see this every day. People's acceptance of deplorable performances of music of all types in worship is beyond thought. I recently heard a "youth choir" on tour. Only about six words, spoken or sung, were understood through the entire performance. They had to re-start several pieces due to poor accompaniment. Their vocal technique was nonexistent and presentation was absolutely flat. Yet here they were, going on tour, representing 1) Christians, 2) musicians, and 3) youth, none of whom would be in the least flattered to be associated with such a travesty. But people applauded and told them how wonderful they were. How are these children going to learn to improve and correct mistakes if they are never told what they have done is sub-standard or, more appropriately, unacceptable? The same applies to organists. This is one of the reasons the organ has fallen from popularity. No one in their right mind would want to attend an organ recital to hear more of what usually goes on in many churches most Sundays. If their "greatest organist" is dull, boring, and plays an organ so that it matches their ability, then why would they waste an afternoon or evening hearing more of that. Bad organ playing, bad liturgy, and bad preaching have certainly done their part is driving people out of the church. Like it or not, these inept people ARE a reflection on all Christians in general, and clergy and organists in particular.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: St. Sulpice From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:31:26 -0400 (EDT)   =A0 > Sorry Bruce, I seem to have a burr up my > saddle, but I don't think it's fundy pills. Ooops! Could be you grabbed the wrong bottle!! ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:39:00 -0400 (EDT)     >Maybe it's just my arthritis acting up after > spending six hours standing at the copy > machine making choirbooks for our Friday 6 > a.m. Sung Mattins service... Oh dear! Do I feel a thread on copyright violation and unfortunate extravagant use of natural resources coming on???   whew, all that paper and print!!   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: virtuosic hymn-playing, etc. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:43:06 -0400 (EDT)     >=A0=A0 In my present position, I have been doing > interludes pro forma (is that the right word?) No! That's TWO words!! ;-) nyuk nyuk   The lift I get is almost indescribably when an organist goes "tastefully nutz" on a hymn. Yet another OHS convention bonus. My congregation loves it, and maybe I don't do it often enough. Perhaps I'll test the waters.   A word of caution, however: Doing "it" just to do "it", often leads to disaster for failure, at best. It is the intent which allows the Spirit in!   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: sung vs said From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:47:35 -0400 (EDT)     >Anglican inconsistencies The foundation of Anglicanism! Inconsistencies, but in moderation!! ;-)   >Or am I just a liturgically depraved > Presbyterian? squeak squeak.... opener going around the "worm can" tee hee   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Frozen Chosen" vs. "Happy Clappy From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:49:37 -0400 (EDT)     >My white flag is up.......... If you're a deer, that could be painful!! ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists vs. no organist From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:05:23 -0400 (EDT)   =A0=A0 >I'd rather have Amy Grant than nothing at all. :-) Oh, how I'd love to hear Amy Grant AND Sandi Patti sing "Messiah". It would be as much fun as watching the carollers merrily running through the "accidently activated" lawn sprinklers. I'm sure the duets would be absolutely, er, memorable!!   I can see the review in the paper the following morning.   GRANT AND PATTI DO MESSIAH! hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah= ahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha= hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah= ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha= hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah= ahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha= hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah= ahahaha   Then I'd like to hear Pavarotti sing a few Willi Nelson gems!!!   yeeesh! the possibilities are endless! ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:16:58 -0400 (EDT)     >I think I may have attended that Lionel Dakers > workshop. It was in Louisiana USA in about 1980!     >Did he not, in fact, say that the only "voluntary" > thing about a Church Choir is whether or not > you choose to join, and that if you DO choose > to join, a whole lot of things thereafter > become compulsory ? Indeed he did; and I would venture to guess that he probably said it at EVERY conference he lead. Definitely a "smart cookie"!     Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem    
(back) Subject: Re: hymn-playing, etc. From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:24:13 -0500   At 09:13 PM 6/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >This guy is a stuck-up prig Mark, since it appears you want to take discussion into the realm of name-calling, I think it's best to take it off the list.   >I don't usually go in for this sort of thing, but I thought you >might be interested in a not untypical example of our >"simple but not simplistic" music programme (your >words, not mine.) Wonderful, and congratulations on finding a parish where you have an obviously supportive clergy and an equally musically gifted congregation. Unfortunately, not all churches are in your situation...most are nowhere near reaching the musical standards of your church. As a result, many congregations are rushing headlong to abandon the organ altogether. Having suffered through decades of incompetent organ-playing, many churches are no longer asking the question "...What kind of organist should we hire?" but are instead asking questions like "...How many = guitars could we buy if we sold the organ?" Forgive me if you're already aware of this problem, but this is a grave concern for myself and professional organists everywhere.   >And all for free !! AMATEUR !! doing it FOR FUN !!! Again, congratulations. If you're doing the best that you can with resources you've been given, are producing satisfactory results, and are having fun while you're doing it...then everyone's happy and I have no quarrel with you. I see no reason why you should be angry at me for expressing a pedagogical concern aimed at improving the standards of organ playing.   Rob "Stuck-up Prig" Horton  
(back) Subject: &$^*(%$ wrong button, please delete last message From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:36:11 -0500   My bad, everyone. That last one should have gone to Mark and Mark only   Rob, blushing  
(back) Subject: Royal Wedding Music From: douglas@blackiris.com Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:22:51 -0500   All I have been able to find out is that she is processing to the "March Heroique" - not sure if this is the Brewer piece or not. Will post more as =   details become evident. - Douglas McMurry <douglas@blackiris.com>   "Minds are like parachutes, they only function when open"  
(back) Subject: Re: organ transplant(s) From: ManderUSA@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:40:44 EDT   In a message dated 6/19/99 8:26:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, budchris@earthlink.net writes:   << most have keydesks attached to the case ... difficult (but not impossible) for an organist/choirmaster to direct with his back to the choir. >>   In a number of situations of that sort known to me (some of which we have perpetrated), including my own church with a 1916 Hook & Hastings tracker with attached console, it has been possible to have the choir seated on either one side or both sides, looking at the side of the director (hopefully, his good side! - I don't have one!). It is not so hard to = direct this way, and occasional side glances can put you into eye contact enough = of the time. In our front balcony, my choir is at my left side, on risers, = and I feel very much in contact with them visually. For them, I think seeing the =   face of the director is really important, even from the side. I can convey =   nuance and mood facially, something the back of my head would never do. If =   you have enough depth in your balcony, so that there is choir area left = over in front of the organ case, you can make it work, and this can open up to = you tons of possible instruments from the clearing house.   A church near Baltimore, where I once lived, bought an old organ for = $2,000 from a church that was closing, hired a supervising organ restoration = person to do the really tough stuff, but to train the many willing members of = choir and congregation to do the mundane and repetitive restoration jobs that really require only patience, no training. The organ builder's bill was $8,000, and they spent about $1,000 for bits and pieces. In the end, they = got a gorgeous instrument for about $11,000. The case wood was beautiful, and restored, it was breathtaking. It appeared on the front page of the = Baltimore Sun in living color one day, a thrilling moment for many. The pride the congregation takes in what it now has is so thick, it can be cut by a = knife. It's like they have invested in every note the organ(ist) plays!   Take care,   Malcolm    
(back) Subject: Lionel Dakers From: "Mark Checkley" <xcs53@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:20:15 +0100   hmmmm   methinks it was at Addington Palace, around 1978.   same workshop, obviously; just different Geography.   Mark. -----Original Message----- From: bruce cornely <rohrschok8@webtv.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 03:17 Subject: Re: Half-trained organists who juts get by in Church.       >I think I may have attended that Lionel Dakers > workshop. It was in Louisiana USA in about 1980!     >Did he not, in fact, say that the only "voluntary" > thing about a Church Choir is whether or not > you choose to join, and that if you DO choose > to join, a whole lot of things thereafter > become compulsory ? Indeed he did; and I would venture to guess that he probably said it at EVERY conference he lead. Definitely a "smart cookie"!     Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   Barking dogs don't bite, but they themselves don't know it. -- Shalom Aleichem     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org