PipeChat Digest #737 - Saturday, March 6, 1999
 
Re: Rednecksville
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Psalmody
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Psalmody
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: Carnegie Institute (was Re: Frederic Archer)
  by "fred lewis" <fl_43019@yahoo.com>
Re: Shalom
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Psalmody
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Shalom
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
stuff for sale
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
RE: Shalom
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: Psalmody
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
My nomination for Hymn #666
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Detroit Archdiocese Music and Quoting
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: My nomination for Hymn #666
  by "Stanley E Yoder" <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
More on psalmody
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
the choral tradition
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Psalmody
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Rednecksville From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:41:09 -0500 (EST)   Brother Gambill, You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and a bottle of Pepto Bismal :).   Neil Brown    
(back) Subject: Psalmody From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 19:44:09 -0800   Psalm-singing just takes determination, and the backing of the clergy. When I first came to St. Matthew's, there was the usual low-church grumbling about singing the Psalms (it's OK to sing the CANTICLES, most of which are from the Psalms, but singing the Psalms themselves to the very same tunes is "romish" ... go figure). Anyway, Earnest Young Rector got up and explained why we sing the Psalms, and how to read the pointing (we print just words and pointing in the bulletin most of the time, except at big services when we expect visitors ... then I write them out in modern notation, line for line, verse for verse, and make a booklet insert that fits into the bulletin). I ALWAYS write them out that way for the choir, even though they're ALMOST to the point they can sing Anglican chant in harmony from just the pointing ... I'd rather spend the time writing them out than waste rehearsal time struggling with the pointing.   At Evensong, I write everything in Gregorian notation because the seminarians have to learn it, and Evensong is mostly for them; but, amazingly enough, folks from the parish have started showing up (maybe because it's Lent), and they do just fine with the square notes. Some of the choir comes to sing Evensong (we have practice afterwards) ... they're to the point they can sight-sing square notes (!).   I DO accompany everything (quietly) ... I think it's pretty unrealistic to try and sing them unaccompanied in a room as dead as ours. We do it occasionally when the Mighty Hammond goes on the fritz, but it's pretty sterile with NO reverberation.   Cheers,   Bud       N Brown wrote:   > Dennis, > May I add to your comment that I am heartened by the growing interest > in psalm > singing in so many churches. > I attended a psalm workshop by Hal Hopson > a few weeks back and came away so uplifted > by that experience. > Indeed, the pendulum may be swinging back > and we can only hope that it be the case. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: Psalmody From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:57:24 -0500 (EST)   Dear Bud, I hope others catch on to this thread, as I think we have suffered for not having had significant psalm singing in our churches. What really makes it meaningful for me, aside from the fact that it's scripture, is to think that we are singing what David and the boys themselves were singing (tunes notwithstanding). Hal Hopson is simply amazing. His new psalter is out of this world. Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: Carnegie Institute (was Re: Frederic Archer) From: fred lewis <fl_43019@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:23:22 -0800 (PST)   ---fred lewis <fl_43019@yahoo.com> wrote:   Dear List & Zach:   The Skinner reffered to is in fact in Saint John the Baptist RC. in Canton, Ohio. It was installed by Charles Kegg of Kegg Pipe Organ Builders of Greentown, Ohio and the late Charles W. Blair - former Director of Music/Organist at St. John's.   I don't have all the rks. and history of the organ at hand but if any one is interested - I can find out all the info and post it, if anyone is interested. This organ is comprised of two Skinners; the one from Pittsburgh and one from New York City.   Fred Lewis fl_43019@yahoo.com or fred@www.ecr.net ---Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote: Folks, there is some clarification needed. 1. Carnegie Hall northside, i.e., the former city of Alleghany, still exists, but it has been the home of the Pgh Public Theatre for years. The Roosevelt was replaced by EMS 452 of 1924, a 4m. What happened to the Roosevelt I dunno. The Skinner is reportedly in an RC church in Akron OH (in whole or in part I dunno). So there has not been an organ there for some decades. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Fred Lewis Organist: St. John's Lutheran - New Washington, Ohio Sacred Heart RC - Shelby, Ohio Renaissance Theater - Mansfield, Ohio 3/20 Kearns WurliTzer Home Address: 61 Zent Avenue Fredericktown, Ohio 43019-1031 Phone & Fax: 740-694-0046 E-mail: fred@www.ecr.net __________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com   == Fred Lewis Organist: St. John's Lutheran - New Washington, Ohio Sacred Heart RC - Shelby, Ohio St. Joseph's RC - Crestline, Ohio ( waiting in the wings ) Renaissance Theater - Mansfield, Ohio 3/20 Kearns WurliTzer Home Address: 61 Zent Avenue Fredericktown, Ohio 43019-1031 Phone & Fax: 740-694-0046 E-mail: fred@www.ecr.net _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Shalom From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:24:51 -0500 (EST)     >That is the # (666) for "Shalom" in the United > Methodist Hymnal. Had I been on the hymnal > committee, I would have suggested they > change it. =A0 Why Neil? What hymn should be no 666? Or should they have done what the hotel people do and just skip the number so that all of the idiots on the 14th floor think they're safe! hehehehe   I probably shouldn't say this, but (when have I ever done what I should??),   what hymn does deserve to be number 666?   (sitting back and wwaiting for the fun??)   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Psalmody From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:29:41 -0500 (EST)   If we are going to considering singing the psalms, it would be very interesting to know how they were sung originally. Hopefully the orginal language was more singer-friendly. What kind of melodies did they use; I have difficulty imagining the Jews sitting around singing these long unmetrical things in chant.   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Shalom From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:34:35 -0500 (EST)   Oh Bruce, I fear what we may have opened up, although it was someone responding to ME that noted the #. You are right, though. (Um, er, I think :) ) Neil    
(back) Subject: stuff for sale From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:43:02 -0500   1) Still have the Austin console--beautiful condition+AD4APg- 2) WurliTzer paneled str8 stoprail, 2m console shell w/ pedalboard--you put in the works+AD4APg- Taking offers on these items....   Rick.                                          
(back) Subject: RE: Shalom From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:44:20 -0700   > skip the number [13] so that all of the idiots > on the 14th floor think they're safe!   Really! If they skip the 13th floor, wouldn't that make the 14th really the 13th?   The LCMS Hymnal ends at 520, but there's a supplement -- I know it goes into the 600's but I don't know how far.   Dennis    
(back) Subject: Re: Psalmody From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 20:49:20 -0800   The Jerusalem Bible gives some clues ... it translates the directions to the choirmaster, choir and orchestra at the head of the Psalms (omitted from most other translations) ... from the orchestration listed, they were LOUD, first of all (at least the festive psalms and the battle psalms); there was evidently a body of familiar tunes ... many will say "to the tune of so-and-so", which would seem to indicate that folks knew the tune by heart, much as we can sing just about anything to the tune of "O Salutaris" or "Tantum ergo", as long as the metre fits.   Ethnomusicologists have recorded very pure renditions of some of our Gregorian psalm-tones (notably Tone IV, the most oriental and the furthest removed from western tonality) in isolated Jewish communities in North Africa that have never had contact with the Western (or Eastern) Church. That same tone forms the basis for the primitive melody that runs through the priest's chants at Mass (if the alternative ancient tone for the collects and the Gospel is used) ... it's both sobering and exciting to consider the possibility that we are singing a melody that comes to us in a direct line from the Temple of Solomon itself.   For that matter, little childrens' chant of "neener, neener, neener" also outlines a common melodic formula of Mode IV ... something to think about (grin)!   Bud   bruce cornely wrote:   > If we are going to considering singing the psalms, it would be very > interesting to know how they were sung originally. Hopefully the > orginal language was more singer-friendly. What kind of melodies did > they use; I have difficulty imagining the Jews sitting around singing > these long unmetrical things in chant. > > bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: My nomination for Hymn #666 From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 20:50:39 -0800   "Drop-Kick Me, Jesus, Through The Goal-Posts of Life"    
(back) Subject: Detroit Archdiocese Music and Quoting From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:51:41 EST   It occured to me that my previous posts regarding music in some of the church in the Archdiocese of Detroit, even the second post which went into greater detail and listed a couple of churches, might have still been too non- inclusive (inclusive regarding listings of church names, NOT feminist language).   Basically I said that my church does excellent music. I then said that several other individuals and parishes in the Archdiocese also do good music. There is MUCH good music making going on in this area. While speaking with a friend who is the Pastor at one of our churches this evening, the subject of the large new instrument recently purchased and installed by his Parish came up. His church is St. Thomas Aquinas in Dearborn and, from what I have heard- his congregation really enjoys their new organ and are singing more robustly and enjoying its leadership. That right there is yet another sign of a desire for musical excellence. There are many individuals who are trying to do great things and maintain high standards and tradition.   Again, the National Shrine of the Little Flower has, in my humble opinion, an exceptional music program based on traditional hymns, organ and choral literature that CAN be a good example for other churches that perhaps have not done this style of music for several years.   We also have supportive clergy and staff to help make it all happen. There are, of course and as I said- churches who do nothing but a steady diet of Glory and Praise and renewal music. However, on the other hand- we (my church and many others) are doing a class act musically and hope this will set a presidence elsewhere as well.   It seems that classical repertoire and a return to traditional music is happening again in churches, moreso than perhaps anything else in the past 30 years since Vatican II. I hope so.   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination  
(back) Subject: Re: My nomination for Hymn #666 From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:22 -0500 (EST)   Excerpts from mail: 5-Mar-99 My nomination for Hymn #666 by Bud/burgie@earthlink.net > "Drop-Kick Me, Jesus, Through The Goal-Posts of Life"   Must be from the Notre Dame (Indiana!) hymn book. Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: More on psalmody From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 21:03:38 -0800   I have to disagree with Bruce's statement that the Psalms were unmetrical, at least in the Hebrew originals ... they rhyme (a great deal of the time), and have very complex rhythmic schemes, which Gelineau tried to translate into French ... perhaps the English adaptation captures some of that, but I always found it very difficult to explain "sprung rhythm" to a choir, particularly from the notation as Gelineau wrote it. In fairness, they seemed more successful when they were orchestrated, and percussion instruments added to keep the beat going ... they seemed pretty flat with just the organ accompaniment (not unlike a lot of the Taize stuff, which sounds gorgeous on recordings with all the instruments, but to my mind don't translate well to the average parish church in this country).   For that matter, there's a whole body of Reformed psalmody in meter ... the Old Version, the New Version, Tate and Brady, etc. I played in an Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church when I was in high school where they still used the metrical turn-of-the-century Presbyterian Psalter; Oxford still prints the split-page Scottish Psalter (pages split in the middle ... tunes above, words below, so you can flip to different tunes for the same Psalm).   Sadly, most of the modern translations don't come close to Coverdale (1549 Book of Common Prayer) for sheer elegance of language (admitting that there are occasional minor errors in translation) ... I've noticed over the years that most of the Psalms virtually point themselves.   Bud    
(back) Subject: the choral tradition From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 21:11:31 -0800   One of our late Archbishops (a talented singer and organist) lamented that while the "continuing" Anglican church had managed to save the KJV, the BCP and the 1940 Hymnal, we were in very great danger of losing the Anglican choral tradition, since most of our churches are small (even by Anglican standards) and simply can't support a full-fledged choral foundation.   One hears some odd things in the American Episcopal church these days .... a neighboring Episcopal parish with a beautiful Gothic church, a fine organ and a long tradition of "cathedral" style choral music now sings their Darke in F, etc. in the midst of a very informal Rite II service ... better than not singing it at all, I suppose, but the juxtaposition of the two languages is jarring, to say the least ... ditto the cathedral in San Diego, where they sing Mozart and Haydn in Latin at Rite II Masses.   I will admit to singing Latin Propers and Ordinary in otherwise English Roman Masses ... that was the only way we could do it in the period when Latin Masses were perceived to be outlawed. And yes, we sang the Credo and the Sanctus (grin).   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Psalmody From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:15:20 -0500 (EST)   Bud, you're quite right. The Levite choir would of course have known the body of tunes, because they practiced -- that was their job. Hal Hopson's Psalter contains that Temple tone, I'll look up tune name and provide it tomorrow, Lord willing and the creek don't rise. Neil