PipeChat Digest #855 - Thursday, May 13, 1999
 
Console for sale
  by "John  M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com>
Re: The Music of Henri Mulet
  by "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com>
Re: It Works!  It Plays!
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: It Works!  It Plays!
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: mutations....where are you???
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Re: playing an old Casavant..
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Fw: playing an old Casavant..
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
tremulant and shoes....
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
tremulant
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
ooopppssss.....sorry about that...
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: ooopppssss.....sorry about that...
  by "Rod Murrow" <murrows@pldi.net>
old Casavants, crescendo shoes, mutations, etc.
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
old casavants.........
  by "jon" <jonberts@swbell.net>
HELP!  Substitute needed in G'ville FL
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: about that chord...
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
Re: It Works!  It Plays!
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: about that chord...
  by "jon" <jonberts@swbell.net>
Re: HORRIBLE MISTAKE
  by "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com>
Re: Aesthetics
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Springfield Steere Specification
  by "David McPeak <Mack>" <dm726@delphi.com>
Re: HELP!  Substitute needed in G'ville FL
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@truelink.net>
 


(back) Subject: Console for sale From: "John M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:49:05 -0000   A member of our chapter asked me to post this.   JOHN     FOR SALE. 1967 Reuter organ console from First Presbyterian Church of St. Petersburg, Florida. Console has 3 manuals and is made of dark walnut. The keys are ivory and are in excellent condition. The console sits atop a 6' x 6' movable platform with a steel framework and a plywood top. The console has 89 drawknobs, 45 on the left side and 44 on the right side. There are 20 tilting tablets above the Swell manual. To the left of the tablets are 3 keyed switches for turning on blowers to the Main organ, the Antiphonal organ, and the Trompette en Chamade. To the right are 6 signal lights for signalling various parts of the church. There are 8 general pistons and 6 divisional pistons for Swell, Great, Positiv and Pedal. There are 3 divisional pistons for the Antiphonal stops. The divisional pistons of all 3 keyboards can be connected to the Pedal divisional pistons via on/off buttons. The console has two expression pedals and a Crescendo pedal, 2 Full Organ buttons, Swell Reeds on/off, Pedal Reeds on/off, setter button, lock for pistons, with indicator lights for Crescendo, Full Organ and Reeds on/off functions. The usual pedal couplers and reversibles are present. The console has electric action and is a beautiful piece of furniture in excellent condition. We are selling it because we recently upgraded to a larger 4-manual console with Solid State action. If new, this console would easily cost over $75.000. We are asking $2,000. The console is presently stored in the church's choir room. Removal would be at the expense of purchaser. For further information, please contact organist Jack Rain at 813/835-5225 or via e-mail at JackRain@webtv.net.        
(back) Subject: Re: The Music of Henri Mulet From: "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:54:04 PDT   Moi aussi! Just played it for Easter.   >     _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com  
(back) Subject: Re: It Works! It Plays! From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:25:03 EDT   Hi Craig--- Wonderful post! <G> Ahhhh,, the satisfaction of playing your own creation, how nice! Congratulations Craig--- I think you had talked about the TV filming of your organ on this list in the past, do you have any capabilities of transferring the program to VCR tape? If so,, I would definitely like to get on the list for a copy (with appropriate charges of course). I dont have a dish,,nor cable,,,only a stacked Yagi on the roof. <G> Best of luck Craig, with the new "toy" <G> After a long number of years of dreaming for my own in-house pipe organ I am just starting, I hope I will be as successful as you have been! <G> Cheers, ---Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: It Works! It Plays! From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:29:07 -0500   Don't I recall Victor Frankenstein gleefully proclaiming something like that back in 1931? --- 20 years before my time, thank you.   Congrats, Craig. I well know the feeling of bringing something to life for the first time.   A little secret ---you MAY have a ll/5 now, with plans for a lll/23 ......... BUT ---it won't stop there, my friend !!   How much front yard area have you got for your furniture ???   Best of luck to you --- you are bitten by the best bug.   Rick V. dutchorgan@svs.net      
(back) Subject: Re: mutations....where are you??? From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:47:31 -0500 (CDT)   > Anyway, what i don't understand is why they'd bulid such a large > organ and put no mutations on it, at all!!!! No nazard, no quint, no tierce, > no nuttin'. wwwaaaaahhhhh!!!! I don't get it. it a beautiful organ. Carlo, Relax...What's so bad about not having any mutations? If the flues are voiced well, there's often no need to decorate them with mutations. Keep in mind that mutations are only there for decoration...they serve to enhance the foundation. If the builder can produce a beautiful, colorful, singing Montre or Bourdon...then forget the mutations and let the individual stop shine! Come by and try our new Wolff and you'll understand what I mean. The Postif flues are simply gorgeous and need no elaboration. Berlioz considered mutations and mixtures abominations (though what did he know about organ?) Whenever I'm demonstrating the resources of an organ to a new student, they cringe at the sound of the mixtures and mutations--rightly so on most North American instruments!   Me: "...and this is a larigot, sounding the fifth overtone." New Student: "AHHHH! turn it off! turn it off!"   Happens every time...Again, off-unison ranks only serve as the "icing" on the cake of flutes and principals.   Rob, who would gladly forsake all mutations for one singing diapason    
(back) Subject: Re: playing an old Casavant.. From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:49:43 -0500 (CDT)   > It didn't have a lot of stops to choose from, but what a sound.   Well done, Carlo.   You've just hit on a truth that is soooo simple, yet it has been overlooked by organists and organ builders alike for decades.   Rob    
(back) Subject: Fw: playing an old Casavant.. From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:39:51 -0500   A finely-built instrument doesn't have to be big and cluttered.   Rick V.     -----Original Message----- From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 5:50 PM Subject: Re: playing an old Casavant..     >> It didn't have a lot of stops to choose from, but what a sound. > >Well done, Carlo. > >You've just hit on a truth that is soooo simple, yet it has been >overlooked by organists and organ builders alike for decades. > >Rob > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: tremulant and shoes.... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:59:02 EDT   greetings,   when I was playing the 1910 Casavant last night, I played a solo at the offertory. I used the tremulant and I felt the entire loft shake. Is this normal? I heard the fluctuations in the wind (I think that's what I heard) and the whole choir loft starting shaking, every so slightly, like a tremor. I had a friend with me who knows very little about organs and she looked at me as if to say "can you feel that?". It was weird. The 4-manual that I described has 3 tremulants (positif, recit and solo), and when they're all pulled the loft at that church doesn't quiver. Another thing.....I noticed I couldn't slide my foot to the right, going directly from the swell pedal to the crescendo pedal. There was a metal casing around the shoes. I had to take my foot off the swell pedal, then put it on the crescendo. On most organs, you can slide from right to left, from one shoe to the other, even operating 2 shoes at the same time. That was something I had never seen before. I guess you live and learn. I can't wait until the pedalboard gets back from the Casavant factory in St. Hyacinth, then I'll pay that little chapel another visit.......hehe   Carlo     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: tremulant From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:06:48 EDT   greetings,   last night while playing the 1910 Casavant, I noticed something that I never encountered before. I used the tremulant, and the entire loft started to shake. I heard the wind fluctuating (I think that's what I heard), and the choir loft started shaking, ever so slightly, like a tremor. I had a friend with me who knows very little about organs and she looked over to me as if to say "do you feel that?". On the 4-manual organ I described earlier, there are 3 tremulants (positif, recit and solo), and even when all 3 of them are pulled, you don't feel that loft shake. It was funny, but I guess every organ is different. You live and learn. Or maybe it was a sign from God, letting me know that this 300-year old church was about to give way. I guess if it did fall down, I would have heard about it by now. Me being the last organist to play there, it doesn't look good.....hehe. I can't wait for the pedalboard to get back from the Casavant factory in St. Hyacinth. When it is back in place, I'll be paying that little chapel another visit.   Carlo     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: ooopppssss.....sorry about that... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:10:59 EDT   I received an error message after sending that post and I thought it didn't go out. But it did. So you'll all notice the same post twice, sort of. I tried to remember what I wrote the 1st time, so the 2nd one isn't exactly the same as the 1st. Oh well, sorry about that.   Carlo     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: ooopppssss.....sorry about that... From: Rod Murrow <murrows@pldi.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:19:14 -0500   I replied privately to Carlo, but decided this should be said to the list.   If you post messages, like Carlo did this one, to two (or more) lists at the same posting, then many people will get two copies of it automatically, assuming they also belong to the same lists. With some lists generating over 100 e-mails daily, double messages are not the cool thing to do...   I'd suggest posting messages singly...if we all sent the same message to all the lists we belong to, couldn't we just consolidate and form one huge list? I'm going to try to learn the "personality" of my lists and avoid dupicating posts...   Just my 2 cents for the evening...so far, anyway...   Rod Murrow   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > I received an error message after sending that post and I thought it didn't > go out. But it did. So you'll all notice the same post twice, sort of. I > tried to remember what I wrote the 1st time, so the 2nd one isn't exactly > the same as the 1st. Oh well, sorry about that. > > Carlo > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: old Casavants, crescendo shoes, mutations, etc. From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:52:04 -0700   I DO find it kinda curious that Casavant WOULDN'T build organs with mutations, since they were coming out of the French romantic tradition, which certainly still had a connection with the French classic tradition .... Cavaille-Coll was VERY respectful of Cliquot's cornets and mutations when he rebuilt a Cliquot organ, retaining as many as possible, and with a minimum of revoicing.   But, having said that, I too have played a number of Casavants, big ones, particularly from the '20s, where there were NO mutations. That CAN be excused to a CERTAIN extent if the voicing is really spectacular .... after all, the cornets in a French classic organ WERE there to reinforce the weak trebles of the reed stops ... BUT, in the process, they also created a sound that was unique to the organs and the literature. There IS really no acceptable substitute for a Jeu de Tierce if you want to play de Grigny, Couperin, etc. Sure, those old cornets would set your HAIR on fire, PARTICULARLY the big ones with the 5 1/3 Gros Nasard and the 3 1/5 Gros Tierce, but that WAS the sound the composers had in mind ... ditto the Tremblant Fort ... sheesh! THOSE sound like a Wirtilizer on FRENZY (grin).   As to the other stuff ... ridge around the crescendo pedal, selective sub and super couplers ... I seem to remember that was all a part of the AGO standards at one time ... I think they got it from Audsley. The ridge around the crescendo pedal was to keep you from opening it by mistake; the selective subs and supers were to keep people from putting the supers on the mixtures and/or the subs on manual 16' stops. The latter was not necessarily a good idea, since it was often desirable to do just that when you were playing big French romantic pieces up in the top of the keyboard ... that's exactly why Franck CALLS for the octaves graves when he does ... so you'll still have a little bit of 16' sound when you're up there in the stratosphere.   I've seen all this on PAPER, but I don't recall ever playing an organ with selective coupling. I'd say at least some of the electric-action consoles I've played had the crescendo pedal at least slightly RAISED from the rest of the shoes so you couldn't slide your foot over to it accidentally.   I've held forth several times about the advantages of a non-coupling Tuba, particularly on a two (or even three) manual organ ... you can accompany it with all the divisions coupled ... I've seen several modern organs where the Trompette-en-chamade "floated", but only to certain divisions, and didn't otherwise couple.   I see nothing wrong with adding mutations to vintage organs, as long as it's done VERY carefully and in the style of the period ... I'd even go so far as to sacrifice the occasional Aeoline or Keraulophone in order to get a cornet ... I know some folks in OHS wouldn't even go THAT far, and they have a point. If the organ is untouched, it was conceived the way it was conceived ... as a tonal unit ... play what it WILL play and let it go at that.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: old casavants......... From: jon <jonberts@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:29:54 -0500   It is not unusual to find instruments of the 20's with out mutations......other than the 2 2/3 Nasard in the Swell. You see, builders were not building organs as instruments then.......they were attempting to build organs as orchestras........and I don't know of any orchestras with "Nasards", Tierces, Fournitures, etc.   There is a brand new organ near me in Lincoln, Ne that has only 3 stops above 2' pitch I believe....and it's well over 80 ranks. The trend of the 20's is coming back.......and it's not really anything that I'd brag about as an organ builder.   Jon Bertschinger    
(back) Subject: HELP! Substitute needed in G'ville FL From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:40:07 -0400 (EDT)   I've just found out that my substitute for Sunday is someone else's substitute on Sunday. Anyone in the area lurking and want to play an RC Mass at 11 am this coming Sunday??   Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: about that chord... From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:00:45 -0500   At 11:25 AM 5/12/99 -0400, Bruce wrote: >>As an aside, these two would both be >> considered at least theoretically consonant in >> Renaissance polyphony!...anyone care to >> take a stab at why that would be?) >Awright, smartass!!! Go to your room!   Sorry Bruce, that wasn't the answer I was after.   In Renaissance polyphony, consonances and dissonances are measured in relation to the bass note. There were no "chords" as we know it, only groups of consonant and dissonant notes over a bass. So, technically speaking, the following pile of notes is consonant!   C G# E   E and G# are consonant, as are E and C...the fact that G# and C form a diminished fourth is of no consequence. Note that it has to be spelled in first inversion, otherwise it won't work. Composers wouldn't quite "sit" on it like they do now, but they did have fun with it.   Smart*** indeed...   Robert Horton - DMA Student, University of Kansas 1603 West 15th St. #207A, Lawrence, KS 66044 http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn/   "Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?"  
(back) Subject: Re: It Works! It Plays! From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:50:29 -0400 (EDT)   Contrats, Craig! You have inspired me. I'm going to go right now and dust of my Principal which is still leaning against the wall. (sigh)   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: about that chord... From: jon <jonberts@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:07:01 -0500   what on earth did those folks do about making fugues on names of people......like B*A*C*H*.....or A*L*A*I*N...........? LOL....and... with all these new monster organs copying organs of the 20's and 30's, we'll probably see the return of the 6 chord.   Jon Bertschinger   Robert Horton wrote:   > > > Sorry Bruce, that wasn't the answer I was after. > > In Renaissance polyphony, consonances and dissonances are measured in > relation to the bass note. There were no "chords" as we know it, only > groups of consonant and dissonant notes over a bass. So, technically > speaking, the following pile of notes is consonant! > > C > G# > E > > E and G# are consonant, as are E and C...the fact that G# and C form a > diminished fourth is of no consequence. Note that it has to be spelled in > first inversion, otherwise it won't work. Composers wouldn't quite "sit" > on it like they do now, but they did have fun with it. > > Smart*** indeed... > > Robert Horton - DMA Student, University of Kansas > 1603 West 15th St. #207A, Lawrence, KS 66044 > http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn/ > > "Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?" > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: HORRIBLE MISTAKE From: "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:18:03 PDT   Would this be the DRAWKNOB with the damp popo?       _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Aesthetics From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:25:46 -0400 (EDT)     > This is a scream and shout church and does > everything from classical to gospel, do it very > well, and do it LOUD. This church needs a > bigger organ that can handle the needs of the > music and the church service, which the > present organ is not. While I was hearing today's homily for the second time (!) I had yet another thought about this dilemma. Rather than try to build a huge pipe organ that will attempt to do classical and CCM music (and wind up doing neither to well), I would suggest designing the finest pipe organ possible for their classical needs, and then purchasing synthetic otherstuff for the CCM. A big advantage, which popped into my head during the homily, was that technology as well as music changes rapidly in the CCM genre, so the acoutrements for this music could be adapted and changed at will without the expense of re-doing the pipe organ. It would be far less expensive to simply buy a new keyboard/synthesizer ever few years.   > But this is an instance that the church needs > more than what they already have. And they should have it.... it just doesn't need to all be in the same box!   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Springfield Steere Specification From: "David McPeak <Mack>" <dm726@delphi.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:25:11 -0400   The following specification was supplied to me by Keith Biger, curator of the Baptist Temple Steere in Brooklyn. The organ is still in storage in the City Hall Annex basement and is in good condition, although when the hall was renovated they removed the chambers and cannot reinstall the organ in the hall. The City will not sell it either.   SYMPHONY HALL, SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS J.W. STEERE & SON ORGAN COMPANY, SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS OPUS 673 1915   GREAT ORGAN (unenclosed) 16' Diapason 8' First Diapason 8' Second Diapason 8' Gross Flute 8' Clarabella 8' Gamba 8' Gemshorn 4' Octave 4' Flute 2' Fifteenth III Mixture 8' Trumpet 16' Ophicleide (Solo) 8' Tuba (Solo) 4' Clarion (Solo) Chimes (Swell)   SWELL ORGAN (enclosed) 16' Bourdon 8' First Diapason 8' Second Diapason 8' Hohlflute 8' Salicional 8' Viol D' Orchestre 8' Voix Celeste 8' Gedackt 8' Aeoline 8' Vox Angelica 4' Octave 4' Flute Harmonique 4' Salicet 2' Flautino III Solo Mixture 16' Posaune 8' Oboe 8' Cornopean 8' Vox Humana 4' Clarion Tremolo Chimes   CHOIR ORGAN (enclosed with solo) 16' Gamba 8' Diapason 8' Dulciana 8' Concert Flute 8' Quintadena 4' Flute D' Amour 2' Piccolo 16' Fagotto 8' Clarinet 8' French Horn (Solo) 8' Orchestral Oboe (Solo) Tremolo Celesta   SOLO ORGAN (enclosed) 8' Stentorphone 8' Gross Gamba 8' Gamba Celeste 8' Philomela 8' Concert Flute 4' Doppelflute 16' Fagotto (Choir) 8' Clarinet (Choir) 8' French Horn 8' Orchestral Oboe 16' Ophicleide 8' Tuba 4' Clarion 8' Tuba Mirabilis   ECHO ORGAN (Prepared) 8' Muted Viol 8' Viol Celeste 8' Fern Flute 4' Flute Traverso 8' Vox Humana Chimes   PEDAL ORGAN 64' Gravissima (prepared) 32' Diapason (prepared) 32' Bourdon 16' First Diapason 16' Second Diapason (Great) 16' Violone 16' Bourdon (ext. 32') 16' Gedackt (Swell) 16' Gamba (Choir) 10 2/3' Quint (ext. 32') 8' Octave (Great 16') 8' Flute (ext. 32') 8' Violoncello (ext. Violone) 8' Gedackt (Swell 16') 32' Bombarde (ext. Ohpicleide) 16' Ophicleide 8' Tuba (Solo) 4' Clarion (Solo)   COUPLERS Great to Pedal 8' Great to Pedal 4' Swell to Great 8' Swell to Great 16' Swell to Pedal 8' Swell to Pedal 4' Swell to Great 4' Choir to Pedal 8' Choir to Pedal 4' Choir to Great 8' Choir to Great 16' Choir to Great 4' Solo to Pedal 8' Solo to Pedal 4' Solo to Great 8' Solo to Great 16' Solo to Great 4' Swell to Choir 16' Swell to Choir 8' Swell to Choir 4' Solo to Choir 8' Echo to Choir 8' Echo to Great 8' Echo to Pedal 8' Echo on-Choir off Swell to Swell 16' Swell to Swell 4' Swell Unison Off Choir to Choir 16' Choir to Choir 4' Choir Unison Off Solo to Solo 16' Solo to Solo 4' Solo Unison Off Echo to Echo 16' Echo to Echo 4' Echo Unison Off   I appologize for any typos.    
(back) Subject: Re: HELP! Substitute needed in G'ville FL From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@truelink.net> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:52:40 -0700   At 10:40 PM 5/13/1999 -0400, bruce cornely wrote:   >Anyone in the area lurking and want to play an >RC Mass at 11 am this coming Sunday?? > >Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze! > Shore! Jes' send me an aerio-plane ticket ta Jacksunville, 'n a rental car, 'n ah'll be GLAD ta help yaz out!   hehehehe   DeserTBoB