PipeChat Digest #861 - Saturday, May 15, 1999
 
Re: aesthetics and the padded nave
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Rodgers 32D
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Rodgers, Ruffati, Stinkens, etc.
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Aesthetics
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: crazy requests....
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: mutations and French "precision"
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Re: Expression Pedals
  by "Aida van de Brake" <Celeste@cable.A2000.nl>
Re: Aesthetics
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: Rodgers, Ruffati, Stinkens, etc.
  by "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com>
Re: playing an old Casavant..
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Where Will It All End???!!!
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
the integrity of older organs
  by "Bud/burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: I need your help....
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: Aesthetics
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Aesthetics
  by "jon" <jonberts@swbell.net>
transcriptions...
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: I need your help....
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
Re: ICQ?
  by "Rod Murrow" <murrows@pldi.net>
Re: transcriptions...
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
 


(back) Subject: Re: aesthetics and the padded nave From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:05:00 -0400 (EDT)   >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 "NO legitimate pipe organ could > encompass that large a range of music > (stomp and shout to classical)" >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 I think that it would be possible > combining a pipe organ with MIDI. Therefore > they can have the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, it is more likely that they will get the worst of both worlds. Compromises first eliminate the best and truest aspects of the medium. It would be far better to have a fine pipe organ that could do what it does best. And then have a set-up of keyboards, synth's, etc, to do whateveritistheydo best. This way, when on is not doing it's job, or the technology renders it obsolete, only the offending system needs to be replaced. If the synth/midi/whatever is part of the pipe organ, chances are that the entire instrument will be replaced because the church probably will not know actually which is not working right, and the only part they really know about it the console!   >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 "And when it isn't able to, the > organbuilder will get blamed (of course)." =A0>=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 Actually, I think (and know that I'm being > presumptuous) that I can "pull it off" > combining a pipe organ with MIDI. I'll let you > know how it works. Of course, if it doesn't work, not only you, but pipe organs in general suffer the consequences. I think that is too much of a gamble. Build them two separate systems! That way they can be replaced or upgraded as needed.   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: Rodgers 32D From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:07:22 -0400 (EDT)     >I have located a Rodgers model 32D >Can anyone tell me about this model? Hmmm.... a 32D??? Just be sure that it "lifts and separates" or it could be very uncomfortable! ;-)   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Rodgers, Ruffati, Stinkens, etc. From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:00:29 -0700   I was under the impression that when the Rodgers-Ruffati marriage fell apart, Rodgers started buying their pipes from an American supplier. The few pipe-combo installations I did for them, the pipes were not of the highest quality.   Jason - I'd take a VERY hard look at the extant Ruffatis in this country before engaging them for a project. I have personal experience with one: Sacred Heart RC on Coronado Island, CA ... the Rodgers electronic voices are tolerable, but the pipe voices ... well, the Great 8' flute will blow you out of the organ loft, and it goes up from there; and the chamade is not to be BELIEVED. The 11:30 Mass at NAS North Island Chapel is filled to standing-room-only with refugees from the noon Organ Mass at Sacred Heart. I don't know whether a skilled voicer could do anything with it or not.   I don't know WHO to blame for the Ruffati in St. Mary Maytag in San Francisco ... that's such a weird space acoustically to begin with. But the organ is unencased, and the times I've heard it, it seems most of the sound goes up the agitator before it reaches the congregation. It's been a long time since I played it, but I seem to recall that the key action was also VERY slow.   Grace Cathedral, San Francisco recently replaced their Ruffati console (1968?) with a sumptuous new Schoenstein console, which should tell you something about Ruffati consoles.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Aesthetics From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:20:29 -0400 (EDT)   >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 2 problems here. First off the church is > somewhat historical. Making a change like > what you suggest would take an act of God. You really need to post a picture. I'm having difficult wrapping my mind around the possibility of this hideous building being historic! As a friend once said at an organ recital upon overhearing a couple of old ladies wondering if anything could be added to a already wretched organ: "A grenade, perhaps??" Give it some thought! >Second the wall is structural. ....sounds like an even better reason to remove it!   >If you put a free standing case where the > console is going, you would totally block the > view of the baptismal tank, and you can > imagine just how well that would go over! > Secondly the choir sits in a horseshoe > configuration around the console. A free > standing case would eliminate a lot of the > seating in the choir loft (who would want to sit > behind the case and sing into the back of it?). A free-standing case could be placed on one side with the choir in a modified horse-shoe in the center and opposite side, without anyone having to sit behind. I find it hard to believe that these people would consider asymmetry a problem!   >The organist/director (one in the same) wants > to do everything from one keyboard source. Ah! Ah-ha! This should have been in the first paragraph in your first post. The problem is THE ORGANIST-DIRECTOR, who apparently is too lazy to get up and move to another instrument, and wants everything compromised to his low level of activity. You're dealing with an idiot! Run like hell.... tear up the address of the church and forget that you ever heard of them. Your time would be better spent building a fine organ for a real church. Leave these folks to a shyster who will run the 16 Principal under the choir pews so that it can double as ventillation on hot days, who will place the chamade beneath the baptistry so that it can be used as a rack to dry towels, and who will build them an inflatable console that they can blow up and place anywhere in the room. Run, run, as fast as you can..... OUT the door and AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!   >The church presently has a Hammond as well > (C-3 I believe), and has to keep going back > and forth between the 2 instruments during > the service. The Hammond can go in the center, the synth keyboards to the right and the piano to the left. Ethel Smith used this arrangement for years, sitting on a single stool with a swivel seat. She never had to get up and had the hips to prove it.   Run, I say, run fast, AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!     bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: crazy requests.... From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:25:46 -0400 (EDT)     >My pet peave is: If it's in the church, keep it > HOLY. >Rev E.D. Um, methinks a career change might be in order! I have worked for too many clergy who felt this way. By golly, if I'm going to have to play night-club music, I want a freakin' night club salary! .... and free drinks! ;-)   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: mutations and French "precision" From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:37:11 -0500 (CDT)   On Sat, 15 May 1999, Bud/burgie wrote: > > What exactly is the French Classic "Jeux Doux"? > Flute et Bourdon de 8 pieds, according to Douglass ... Interesting, I've never heard of a French Classic composer named Douglass ;-> Seriously, though...the following registrations are also OK "pour fayre l'accompagnement des jeulx doux", according to the likes of Raison, Boyvin, Bedos, etc...and depending on the solo voice being accompanied   Bourdon et Prestant Montre ou Flute seul ....and even something as wacky as... Bourdons de 16 et 8 pieds, Flute, Prestant, et Tremblant doux   > But where does one draw the line? A Cor Anglais is light-years away from a French > classical Jeu de Tierce. I can't answer that, my friend. If we could reduce that "line" to a simple demarcation we wouldn't need musicians anymore, would we? The best answer I can give is to rely on "le bon gout". As far as being "light years away", I wouldn't put them that far away...maybe still within this star system. They're both very colorful and unique solo voices that sound sumptuous "en Taille".   > See question above ... See the answer above ...   > I'd say my FIRST job is to communicate the composer's INTENTIONS. ....and to whom are you communicating those intentions? Don't get me wrong, I think that being faithful to the composer's intentions is a very noble cause, and often produces wonderful results. List to the Boston Baroque's performance of the Brandenburgs, or Malcom Bilson's performance of Beethoven...stunning music indeed! I'm devoting my life to studying those very practices...But I just don't see the debate as an "either-or" proposition.   > OOGA-BOOGA??!! I wouldn't call immersing one's self in Catholic mystical and > sacramental theology ooga-booga. That's ONE of the reasons Tournemire's L'Orgue > Mystique doesn't get played more often ... it was written to go hand in glove with > the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and it DOESN'T (for the most part) "work" in concert. My point exactly. Since the music was written to be heard in a religious setting, it flops as concert repertoire in American acoustics.   > Now apologize for calling my faith "ooga-booga". No malice intended towards you or OUR faith...and none taken, I hope.   Rob    
(back) Subject: Re: Expression Pedals From: Aida van de Brake <Celeste@cable.A2000.nl> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:43:18 +0200   Jason McGuire wrote:   > > I am trying to get clarity on the placement of expression pedals when there > are more than two. Usually, it's Choir, Swell, then Crescendo (left to > right). When there is a Solo division under expression, does that pedal go > left of the Choir expression pedal or right of the Swell? I know that the > Swell expression pedal is always in the same place in relation to the > pedals. Also, is the layout an AGO guideline or something that is up to > individual builders? Thanks for your help. >     Here's a quote from the AGO standards:   "... Swell shoe to be located directly in front of the E-F gap. Choir shoe to left of Swell. Solo shoe to right of Swell. Register-Crescendo shoe invariably to the right of all others, and slightly raised. Great shoe to displace Solo in three- manual organs. To the left of Choir in four-manual organs. ..."     Cheers,   Aida.  
(back) Subject: Re: Aesthetics From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:03:43 +0100     >> This is a scream and shout church and does >> everything from classical to gospel, do it very >> well, and do it LOUD. This church needs a >> bigger organ that can handle the needs of the >> music and the church service, which the >> present organ is not. >While I was hearing today's homily for the second time (!) I had yet >another thought about this dilemma. Rather than try to build a huge >pipe organ that will attempt to do classical and CCM music (and wind up >doing neither to well), I would suggest designing the finest pipe organ >possible for their classical needs, and then purchasing synthetic >otherstuff for the CCM. A big advantage, which popped into my head >during the homily, was that technology as well as music changes rapidly >in the CCM genre, so the acoutrements for this music could be adapted >and changed at will without the expense of re-doing the pipe organ. It >would be far less expensive to simply buy a new keyboard/synthesizer >ever few years.   One of the manuals and the pedal board could be made MIDI so that the synths could be controlled from the organ.   Richard. =========================================================   This message was sent to you by Richard Pinel. rpinel@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk   I abandoned Hope, tried Camels, got Lucky, but I still prefer women    
(back) Subject: Re: Rodgers, Ruffati, Stinkens, etc. From: "Jason McGuire" <jason@johannus-norcal.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:42:01 -0700     >I was under the impression that when the Rodgers-Ruffati marriage fell >apart, Rodgers started buying their pipes from an American supplier. The >few pipe-combo installations I did for them, the pipes were not of the >highest quality.   Yes, I believe that's right.   >Jason - I'd take a VERY hard look at the extant Ruffatis in this country >before engaging them for a project. >   Actually, I have no plans to consider Ruffati for anything. I have yet to hear one I like. The general consensus on the ones at Davies Symphony Hall and St. Mary's is far less than favorable ... I suppose some like them, most I know do not. There are reported problems with the one at Davies (pipes collapsing) and yes, the Grace console was finally (thankfully) replaced.   Jason > ----------------------------------------------------- Pray for peace, brotherly love and good will towards all!   JOHANNUS of Northern California http://www.johannus-norcal.com >  
(back) Subject: Re: playing an old Casavant.. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:48:01 -0500   Paul Opel wrote: >=20 > Notre Dame R.C. Church, 50 Melville St, Pittsfield, MA > Casavant Freres Ltee. #78, 1897, 2-17rks >=20 > In rear gallery of barrel-vaulted church, in two cases. On the liturgic= al > north are the G.O. and Pedale 16'; on the south, the Rec. and Pedale 8'. > The keydesk is attached to the south case. >=20 > GRAND ORGUE (58 notes) > Montre 8' #1-15 in facade; common metal > M=E9lodie 8' All wood; open #18 > > Dulciane 8' #1-12 from Mel. > Prestant 4' Common metal > R=E9cit au Gr. Orgue > Octave Grave (=3D Rec. to G.O. 16') >=20 > R=C9CIT (58 notes) [No pipe details avail.; sorry!] > Principal 8' > Bourdon 8' > Gambe 8' > Voix Celeste 8' From #13 > > Flu^te Harmonique 4' harm. from #25 > > Flautino 2' > Mixture III rks #1: 12-19-22 > #25: 8-12-15 > #45: 5-8-12 > Trompette 8' > Hautbois 8' > Tremolo >=20 > P=C9DALE 27 notes; concave, parallel pedalboard >=20 > Bourdon 16' > Fl=FBte 8' Principal; facade of S case > Gr. Orgue =E0 la P=E9dale > Recit =E0 la P=E9dale >=20 > http://www.sover.net/~popel   In spite of the French influences, these early Casavants always remind me more of the finest nineteenth-century English work rather than of builders like Casavant -- of course, the Casavant Fr=E8res trained with John Abbey, an Englishman working in France. This strikes me as an amazingly well-designed organ but compact and economic at the same time. Note, for example, that it has a Sw. to Gr. 16' coupler to allow the soft strings and flutes to be used at 16' pitch on the Great, but a 4' coupler is deemed unnecessary because there is a Mixture on the Sw. and such a coupler would destroy the balance of the plenum. Note that the Sw. Mixture has a Twelfth all the way up, but relies on the 2' Flautino for the Fifteenth. This would impart a richness to the Sw. and help to draw the whole chorus together. A standard 15-19-22 Sw. Mixture would not achieve this, while a standard 12-15-19 one would sound dull.=20 Note how there is a (presumably) rather broad open 8' on the Pedal, to give clarity and really let the Pedal line sing out. This is an instrument I would really love to play!   John Speller, St. Louis, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Where Will It All End???!!! From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:45:18 -0700   Personally, I think this business is getting ENTIRELY out of hand. In the "old days", we did Gospel and praise music quite handily with a grand piano, a pipe or other organ, and maybe a trap set and/or a few solo instruments. It seems to me that if a church HAS CCM, then let the CCM combo take care of THAT, and let the organ or organ and piano take care of the rest. And if necessary, HAVE a B-3 or the synthesizer equivalent.   I'm just a simple village organist ... I don't have a degree in computer science OR electronic music. I read the MIDI directions for my Hammond a couple of times with the idea of hooking up an electronic harpsichord .... finally gave up. I'll just get off the bench and PLAY the harpsichord.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: the integrity of older organs From: Bud/burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:02:03 -0700   John Speller has hit the nail squarely on the head. Those old builders knew what they were doing; leave 'em alone and let the organs play the music they were built for.   It should be written into every organist's contract that he/she has to LIVE with an instrument for AT LEAST a couple of years before contemplating ANY changes.   A LOT of the objections I hear voiced have less to do with the DISPOSITION of the instrument and more to do with the CONDITION. Time and again I've played older organs in ruinous condition and thought, "Gee, I bet this would be really spectacular if it were WORKING."   Moller made a sweep through Florida in the twenties ... there were no less than FIVE Moller organs in Bartow (a town of 12,000), all basically the same stop-list, plus or minus, depending on the church. The largest was a modest three-manual in the Baptist church ... well-placed, good tonal egress, typical stop-list, virtually unplayable by the early '60s. They had it rebuilt from top to bottom by Moller, no tonal changes whatsoever. HELLO! What a FUN organ to play! Sure, it could have used this and that tonally to fill out an organ of that style, but there was no room. Of course, it was also blessed with a very high-ceilinged square room with wood floors, hard plaster walls and ceilings, etc. It became the church of choice for choral concerts, AGO events, etc. once the organ was playing again.   Then there's the story of the famous Boston church (which shall remain nameless) who ripped out their large E.M. Skinner and installed a large whatever; several years later, they were scouring Organ Clearing House lists for another large E.M. Skinner to put BACK, at ENORMOUS expense. Now, these folks evidently had both the space AND the money for their Skinner AND their whatever ... had cooler heads prevailed, they wouldn't be spending upwards of $1 million to replace what they HAD.   If a church has the money for a large concert organ, cool; but mostly what a church organ does is accompany, and those old organs can do THAT, no sweat.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: I need your help.... From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:01:16 +0100   >fellow list members, > > I need your collective expertise. I made a bet with someone >that I can name a toccata in every key, major and minor. That makes 24 keys >in all. Can you all help me come up with 24 titles? >It doesn't matter how long they are or what composer. Thanks.... > >Carlo > >p.s. If I win, I'll take all of you out to dinner!!!!!!!! >     Do we get plane tickets if we live in England!!!? :}   Richard. =========================================================   This message was sent to you by Richard Pinel. rpinel@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk   A feature is a bug with seniority.    
(back) Subject: Re: Aesthetics From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:17:43 -0400 (EDT)     >One of the manuals and the pedal board could > be made MIDI so that the synths could be > controlled from the organ.   This is true, but the problem is that when the MIDI/synth needs to be replaced or upgraded, the digital salesman points at the CONSOLE and says, YOU NEED A NEW ORGAN! The people are so trusting/dumb/stupid/whatever that the result usually is that the pipe portions are tossed out with the bad/aged/obsolete electronic digital stuff. Hence, they really should have two separate instruments. In addition, this would allow for an additional person being included in the music program. The organist doesn't HAVE to do EVERYTHING ya know. ;-)   bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net   When a dog wants to hang out the "Do Not Disturb" sign, as all of us do now and then, he is regarded as a traitor to his species. -- Ramona C. Albery    
(back) Subject: Re: Aesthetics From: jon <jonberts@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:19:50 -0500   Why just one of the manuals, when a whole system could be driven via MIDI language......up to 990 stops, 19 divisions and at least 99 levels of memory.   Jon Bertschinger Voicer/Technician Temple Organs   Richard Pinel wrote:   > >> This is a scream and shout church and does > >> everything from classical to gospel, do it very > >> well, and do it LOUD. This church needs a > >> bigger organ that can handle the needs of the > >> music and the church service, which the > >> present organ is not. > >While I was hearing today's homily for the second time (!) I had yet > >another thought about this dilemma. Rather than try to build a huge > >pipe organ that will attempt to do classical and CCM music (and wind up > >doing neither to well), I would suggest designing the finest pipe organ > >possible for their classical needs, and then purchasing synthetic > >otherstuff for the CCM. A big advantage, which popped into my head > >during the homily, was that technology as well as music changes rapidly > >in the CCM genre, so the acoutrements for this music could be adapted > >and changed at will without the expense of re-doing the pipe organ. It > >would be far less expensive to simply buy a new keyboard/synthesizer > >ever few years. > > One of the manuals and the pedal board could be made MIDI so that the synths > could be controlled from the organ. > > Richard. > ========================================================= > > This message was sent to you by Richard Pinel. > rpinel@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk > > I abandoned Hope, tried Camels, got Lucky, but I still prefer women > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: transcriptions... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:22:49 EDT   good day fellow organists,   a well-known organist living here in Montreal, whose initials are R.D. made a comment a few years ago, and I'd like to share it with you. "....with the volumes and volumes of organ music in the world, I find it totally asinine for any organist to play transcriptions from other instruments. If you want to play these pieces, learn the other instruments. They are not organ pieces and should not be played on the organ. In doing so, you're degrading the organ as an instrument....."   Now, he's entitled to his opinion, but I think he's gone way off the deep end with this one. If it weren't for transcriptions, we wouldn't have the Bridal Chorus, Handel's water music, Jesu joy of man's desiring, and many other pieces not originally written for the organ. These pieces are very much a part of the organ repertory. They were originally written for violins, horns and other instruments, and we chose to play them on our medium....the organ. To be so closed-minded as to make such a statement......well, all I can say is that he's depriving himself of an expanded repertory, and being closed-minded. But, he is entitled to his opinion, as we all are.   Carlo     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: I need your help.... From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:18:56 -0400   E flat major -"Toccata" , Douglas Wagner - "8 Psalm Impresions for Organ. Diane Straight    
(back) Subject: Re: ICQ? From: Rod Murrow <murrows@pldi.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:37:09 -0500   I usually like bruce's listings - but there is absolutely no reason for anyone to make light of the awful carnage that the recent tornados caused in Oklahoma. I'm most offended.   Allen and Rodgers are the leading electronic organs in Oklahoma primarily because those are the only ones available through any local dealers. Bruce, get off your high horse. You owe the people of Oklahoma an apology.   Rod Murrow   bruce cornely wrote:   > >No, not necessarily - those are just the two > > that are most popular here in Oklahoma. > > Oh, teehee.... and we wonder why God keeps sending all those awful > tornados... um, go figure! ;-) > > hehehehehe (couldnt' resist.... voluntarily going to corner to stand > next to 8' C of Principal waiting to be turned into practice organ!!) > > bruce cornely cremona84000@webtv.net    
(back) Subject: Re: transcriptions... From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:39:47 -0500 (CDT)   On Sat, 15 May 1999, Carlo Pietroniro wrote: >> I find it totally asinine for any organist to play >> transcriptions > Now, he's entitled to his opinion, but I think he's gone way > off the deep end with this one.   Carlo, So invite this gentleman (or lady) to join Pipechat and THEN we'll make a thread out of it. It's neither fair nor productive to argue about what someone else said when they're not even here.   Rob, putting the finishing touches on some transcriptions of his own...