PipeChat Digest #1146 - Thursday, November 4, 1999
 
Re: Rhosymedre - text
  by "Sue Smith" <SueSmith@Imagine.com>
Re: An organ CD for those who are thinking of transcriptions
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Rhosymedre - text
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Rhosymedre - text
  by "Stanley E Yoder" <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Re: Complete JSB
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
pointing of Psalms
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: pointing of Psalms
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Need John Rutter's dates
  by "Shirley" <pnst@snip.net>
Re: Need John Rutter's dates
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
RE: Need John Rutter's dates
  by "Tim Byram-Wigfield" <t_byram-wigfield@jesus.cam.ac.uk>
Re: pointing of Psalms
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: pointing of Psalms
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Pipe Screams - follow up
  by "mreeves@vzinet.com" <mreeves@vzinet.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Rhosymedre - text From: "Sue Smith" <SueSmith@Imagine.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 06:26:18 -0500   Hi Glenda:   This answer is non-responsive to your question on Rhosymedre, but it may = be of interest to you and the list.   Rhosymedre is included in the New Century Hymnal with the text "O God, = Whose Steadfast Love [true motherhood has blessed,] (UCC Minister James L. = Haddix, wrote it for his mother in 1986, rev.1994).   The text is great; it makes a wonderful Mother's Day hymn and I plan to = pair it up this Mother's Day with the Vaughn Williams piece as a prelude.   Lawyer/organist/webmistress Sue Smith www.smith-lawfirm.com www.avon-church.org       ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenda <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> To: PIPORG-L <piporg-l@listserv.albany.edu>; PIPECHAT <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: November 02, 1999 7:11 PM Subject: Rhosymedre - text     > I have been wondering whether during Vaughan Williams' time there was a hymn > in the Hymns Ancient and Modern or other equivalent Anglican tome using the > tune Rhosymedre. In looking around what meager resources I have, I noticed > there was no use of the tune in the 1972 (?) HA&M (I don't have the most > current version there). The current Lutheran Book of Worship uses it twice: > once to "My song is love unknown", and again to "O Father, by whose = name". > Our own Episcopal Hymnal 1982 uses it to the latter of those texts, and = I > don't recall the tune in the 1940 hymnal, although it may lurk there. > > Just curious, > > Glenda Sutton > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: An organ CD for those who are thinking of transcriptions From: Myosotis51@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:43:06 EST   In a message dated 11/02/1999 4:43:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk writes:   << I was in Boston, MA last week (I will email to tell you all about it = later!) and in "Tower Records" there was the complete works of Bach for about $40 = - good huh?! Richard >>   Here's the website: <A HREF=3D"http://www.towerrecords.com/">Tower = Records - Music, Video, DVD and More</A>  
(back) Subject: Re: Rhosymedre - text From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:15:00 -0600   Thanks much to all the responses, and it is particularly gratifying that = the tune is in so much use today. I appreciate particularly the replies from Stan Yoder and D. Quentin Bellamy and Stephen Leist as the most responsive answers to the question - it's nice to see those texts.   Do you think that there was an English text setting with which Vaughan Williams grew up and was familiar (and perhaps had in mind) prior to his composing and editing using this tune? Or do you think his inspiration = came solely from the original Welsh?   Regards,   Glenda Sutton        
(back) Subject: Re: Rhosymedre - text From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:58:31 -0500 (EST)   Excerpts from mail: 3-Nov-99 Re: Rhosymedre - text by = "Glenda"@access.aic-fl.c > Do you think that there was an English text setting with which Vaughan > Williams grew up and was familiar (and perhaps had in mind) prior to his > composing and editing using this tune? Or do you think his inspiration = came > solely from the original Welsh? > I guess that's hard to say. The three organ preludes were published in 1920, well after his work on the 1906 EH, but before the publication of Dearmer's SP in 1925. Given his Welsh heritage, he may have treated these three tunes without regard to any particular *English* texts. But what texts did the *Welsh* sing to these tunes in that era that RVW may have known about as a boy in Down Ampney in Gloucestershire near the Welsh border? Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re: Complete JSB From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:46:08 -0500 (EST)     >OHS has a 12 CD set, complete Bach Organ > Works for 59.95 >Is that a good deal? >whether or not it is a good dealdepends upon > several factors, including: >"Who is the performer?" >"When was it made?" and, of course for many > of us, >"How much does it cost?" I would add to that: What organ was it recorded on? What is the temperament? How are the acoustics?   >I would submit, however, that there is a more > important question to be answered before you > start to answer any of these questions: >"Why do you want to buy a (particular) set of > the complete works of JSB; are you just > looking to finally get one? are you dissatisfied > with your interpretation of some particular > work, and looking for new and different ideas? I enjoy having multiple recordings of the same work; it is helpful to have different interpretations.     bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: pointing of Psalms From: "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:39:01 -0800   I do have to disagree with one comment concerning the pointing and simplifying it for congregations: when we first began, I used the old bump-and-thump Cathedral Psalter pointing (because I grew up with it), with lots of double notes on strange syllables, etc. ... the 1940 Hymnal is only about one step better ... but what I discovered is that if I use the natural accents and rhythm of the words as a starting point, I end up with something akin to the King's College pointing (moving the beginning of the mediation and cadence as far back toward the beginning of the lines as possible). I mark the accents of the important words first; then I figure out how MANY syllables I can fit to the mediation and cadence, not how FEW.   It took the congregation a few weeks to get used to it, but now they do it naturally with no more pointing that an underline on the syllable where they are to leave the reciting note.   Example (if I can find some symbols to reproduce pointing without it being read as an attachment):   Psalm 1:1   Bles-sed is the man that hath not walk-ed in the coun-sel of the un-god-ly, / (that's how I mark a pause)   nor stood in the | way of | sin-ners, *   (could even be:   nor | stood in the . way of | sin-ners, * )   and hath not | sat in . the | seat of . the | scorn-ful.   Which is a lot more natural than   .... nor stood in the way of | SIN-ners, *   and hath not sat in the | SEAT | of the | scorn-ful.   Verse 3:   And he shall be like a tree | plant-ed . by the | wa-ter-side, *   that will | bring forth . his | fruit in . due | sea-son.   It seems to me that this reproduces the "sprung rhythm" concept inherent in the Hebrew originals (as explained in the Grail-Gelineau Psalter) better than the older method. It also uncovers the basic poetic nature of the Psalms, even though they don't rhyme (strictly speaking) in English.   A good example: Psalm 2:2b   .... a-gainst the | Lord and . a - | gainst his . a - | noint-ed.   To me (at least), that rhythm is self-evident in the text, and once you teach a congregation to HEAR Psalms as having a metre (alternating groups of twos and threes, exactly the same as Gregorian recitation), then they will do it as naturally as speaking, since if they thought about it, they would SPEAK the Psalms with the natural rhythms of the word-accents.   Just my tuppence' worth ...   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: pointing of Psalms From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:31:01 -0600   I think our way of doing it is nearer to Bud's than he thinks. This is how we did Psalm 1 the other day:   1 Happy are they who have not walked=20 in the counsel | of the | wicked,* nor lingered in the way of sinners, nor sat in the | se=E4ts | of the | scornful!   2 Their delight is in the | law =95 of the | LORD,* and they meditate on his | l=E4w | day and | night.=20   3 They are like trees planted by streams of water, bearing fruit in due season,=20 with leaves that | do not | wither;* every- | thing they | do shall | prosper.=20   4 It is not so | with the | wicked;* they are like chaff which the | w=EFnd | blows a- | way. =20 5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand upright when | judgment | comes,* nor the sinner in the | council | of the | righteous.   6 For the LORD knows the | way =95 of the | righteous,* but the way of the | wicked | =EFs | doomed.   John.     Bud/Burgie wrote: >=20 > I do have to disagree with one comment concerning the > pointing and simplifying it for congregations: when we first > began, I used the old bump-and-thump Cathedral Psalter > pointing (because I grew up with it), with lots of double > notes on strange syllables, etc. ... the 1940 Hymnal is only > about one step better ... but what I discovered is that if I > use the natural accents and rhythm of the words as a > starting point, I end up with something akin to the King's > College pointing (moving the beginning of the mediation and > cadence as far back toward the beginning of the lines as > possible). I mark the accents of the important words first; > then I figure out how MANY syllables I can fit to the > mediation and cadence, not how FEW. >=20 > It took the congregation a few weeks to get used to it, but > now they do it naturally with no more pointing that an > underline on the syllable where they are to leave the > reciting note. >=20 > Example (if I can find some symbols to reproduce pointing > without it being read as an attachment): >=20 > Psalm 1:1 >=20 > Bles-sed is the man that hath not walk-ed in the coun-sel of > the un-god-ly, / (that's how I mark a pause) >=20 > nor stood in the | way of | sin-ners, * >=20 > (could even be: >=20 > nor | stood in the . way of | sin-ners, * ) >=20 > and hath not | sat in . the | seat of . the | > scorn-ful. >=20 > Which is a lot more natural than >=20 > ... nor stood in the way of | SIN-ners, * >=20 > and hath not sat in the | SEAT | of the | scorn-ful. >=20 > Verse 3: >=20 > And he shall be like a tree | plant-ed . by the | > wa-ter-side, * >=20 > that will | bring forth . his | fruit in . due | > sea-son. >=20 > It seems to me that this reproduces the "sprung rhythm" > concept inherent in the Hebrew originals (as explained in > the Grail-Gelineau Psalter) better than the older method. It > also uncovers the basic poetic nature of the Psalms, even > though they don't rhyme (strictly speaking) in English. >=20 > A good example: Psalm 2:2b >=20 > ... a-gainst the | Lord and . a - | gainst his . a - | > noint-ed. >=20 > To me (at least), that rhythm is self-evident in the text, > and once you teach a congregation to HEAR Psalms as having a > metre (alternating groups of twos and threes, exactly the > same as Gregorian recitation), then they will do it as > naturally as speaking, since if they thought about it, they > would SPEAK the Psalms with the natural rhythms of the > word-accents.  
(back) Subject: Need John Rutter's dates From: Shirley <pnst@snip.net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:54:43 -0500   Hi, folks -   Please forgive the cross-posting, but I need the dates for John Rutter for a program I'm typing up, and I need them before tomorrow (Thursday) = afternoon.   Thanks to anyone who can help.   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Need John Rutter's dates From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:21:19 -0500   Shirley: John Rutter was born in 1945. So far as I know, he's still ver= y much alive. Best, =96Dave     -----Original Message----- From: Shirley <pnst@snip.net> To: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu>; pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org>; organchat@onelist.com <organchat@onelist.com> Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 19:59 Subject: Need John Rutter's dates     >Hi, folks - > >Please forgive the cross-posting, but I need the dates for John Rutter f= or >a program I'm typing up, and I need them before tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon. > >Thanks to anyone who can help. > > --Shirley > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: RE: Need John Rutter's dates From: "Tim Byram-Wigfield" <t_byram-wigfield@jesus.cam.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:22:47 -0000   'Fraid so!   T   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > V. David Barton > Sent: 04 November 1999 01:21 > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Need John Rutter's dates > > > Shirley: John Rutter was born in 1945. So far as I know, he's still = very > much alive. Best, =96Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shirley <pnst@snip.net> > To: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu>; > pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org>; organchat@onelist.com > <organchat@onelist.com> > Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 19:59 > Subject: Need John Rutter's dates > > > >Hi, folks - > > > >Please forgive the cross-posting, but I need the dates for John > Rutter for > >a program I'm typing up, and I need them before tomorrow (Thursday) > afternoon. > > > >Thanks to anyone who can help. > > > > --Shirley > > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: pointing of Psalms From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:51:49 -0600   The only thing I would do differently is that I would avoid having one syllable sing a whole measure (two notes), if that makes sense to you. (After working all day, running home to get a dozen plants (mostly big, = one an 8 foot tree) in the house to keep them from freezing in sunny Florida, rehearsing for a couple hours, and drinking a beer, I can't speak music-ese!)   Tipsily yours,   Glenda Sutton     ----- Original Message ----- From: John L. Speller <jlspeller@stlnet.com>   I think our way of doing it is nearer to Bud's than he thinks. This is how we did Psalm 1 the other day:   1 Happy are they who have not walked in the counsel | of the | wicked,* nor lingered in the way of sinners, nor sat in the | se=E4ts | of the | scornful!   etc.      
(back) Subject: Re: pointing of Psalms From: "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:27:09 -0800       Just glancing through it, I still see the thing that I most object to, John ... the mediation or cadence beginning on an unimportant syllable. For instance, in the first verse, "counsel" and "wicked" are the important words ... if you're using a chant such as Russell in F (1940, #645) the problem is compounded by "of" being on a rising note. I would do it thus:   (Bud's version)     Happy are they who have not walked in the | coun-sel . of the | wick-ed, * nor lingered in the way of sinners, / (pause) nor |sat in . the | seats of . the | scorn-ful!   (John's version)     >1 Happy are they who have not walked > in the counsel | of the | wicked,* > nor lingered in the way of sinners, > nor sat in the | se=E4ts | of the | scornful! > >2 Their delight is in the | law =95 of the | LORD,* > and they meditate on his | l=E4w | day and | night.   I know there's a rule about when it's two plus one and when it's one plus two ( "law . of the" versus "law of . the"), but I can't remember it ... I tend to decide based on the chant I'm using. There's no help for the "LAW" (double note) in the second half, to be sure ... you can't back up all the way to "meditate" (grin). > >3 They are like trees planted by streams of water, > bearing fruit in due season, > with leaves that | do not | wither;* > every- | thing they | do shall | prosper.   I would do:   They are ... with |leaves that . do not | with-er; * (omit reciting note) | ev-'ry- . thing they | do shall | pros-per.   And so forth ... I think the advantage is that, as I said, if I'm consistent, the congregation can do this by ear with nothing but an underline on the syllable where they are to leave the reciting note. I just put a long dash when I want them to leave out the reciting note, and they get it.   Cheers,   Bud >      
(back) Subject: Pipe Screams - follow up From: mreeves@vzinet.com (mreeves@vzinet.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:00:03 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_035E_01BF265F.ED384620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Dear Listers; (not to spark a debate, just reporting)   I'm reporting that this years program on Halloween was a success. Here = =3D in East Texas, we had a cold front moving through, so we had cold =3D rain/drizzle the whole day and evening, which totally wiped-out the =3D "trick-or-treaters" (so we have tons of candy left over). And, because = =3D of the high humidity, I had keys sticking and sluggish action. That's = =3D the drawback of trackers, but, it's more the fault of our church Hv/AC =3D system being from the 1960's than anything.   Despite that, we had an attendance of about 140. Doubled from last =3D year. The audience consisted of about 40 High School-College aged =3D young men and women, (thanks to some promotion by the schools). The =3D rest of the audience was between 30 and 80....but, there was not a =3D predominance of any particular age group. yippee.   The program began in darkness with the Toccata and Fugue in dm by JSB, = =3D followed by "liturgical Bach", Peter Warlock, Boellman, and the singing = =3D of "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones" in a well-lighted room The highlight = =3D of the evening was during Sousa's Liberty Bell March, as Josh East (14 = =3D y/o) expressed his virtuosity on a triangle, followed by an organ =3D improvisation on "When the Saints Go Marching In" (dedicated to All =3D Saints) and concluding with the singing of "For All the Saints." =3D20   A wonderful reception followed, with most of the youth hanging around =3D and "eating" the Italian Cream Cake, and Chocolate/Peanut Butter treats, = =3D in a beautifully decorated, candle-lit Fellowship Hall. The program =3D started at 7:00 PM and ended at 8:05. The reception was still going at = =3D 8:45, but, by 9 PM, most people had cleared out, because all the food =3D was gone. Did I mention that the youth stayed for the reception?   And, even though I didn't take an offering, or ask for donations, we =3D still received $227 left in a basket that was there for decoration in =3D the foyer.=3D20   Respects, Mark Reeves, Dir. of Music/Organist mreeves@vzinet.com First UMC - Canton, Texas http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328     ------=3D_NextPart_000_035E_01BF265F.ED384620 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Dear Listers;&nbsp;&nbsp; (not to spark a debate, = =3D just=3D20 reporting)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I'm reporting that this years program on Halloween = =3D was a=3D20 success.&nbsp;&nbsp; Here in East Texas, we had a cold front moving =3D through, so=3D20 we had cold rain/drizzle the whole day and evening, which&nbsp; = totally=3D20 wiped-out the "trick-or-treaters"&nbsp;(so we have tons of candy left=3D20 over).&nbsp;&nbsp; And, because of the high humidity, I had keys =3D sticking and=3D20 sluggish action.&nbsp;&nbsp; That's the drawback of trackers, but, it's = =3D more the=3D20 fault of our church Hv/AC system being from the 1960's than=3D20 anything.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Despite that, we had an attendance of about =3D 140.&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 Doubled from last year.&nbsp;&nbsp; The audience consisted of about 40 =3D High=3D20 School-College aged young men and women, (thanks to some promotion by =3D the=3D20 schools).&nbsp;&nbsp; The rest of the audience was between 30 and =3D 80....but,=3D20 there was not a predominance of any particular age group.&nbsp;=3D20 yippee.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>The program began in darkness with the Toccata and = =3D Fugue in dm=3D20 by JSB,&nbsp; followed by "liturgical Bach", Peter Warlock, Boellman, =3D and the=3D20 singing of "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones" in a well-lighted =3D room&nbsp;&nbsp; The=3D20 highlight of the evening was during Sousa's&nbsp; Liberty Bell March, as = =3D Josh=3D20 East (14 y/o) expressed his virtuosity on a triangle, followed by an =3D organ=3D20 improvisation on "When the Saints Go Marching In" (dedicated to All =3D Saints) and=3D20 concluding with the singing of "For All the Saints."&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>A wonderful reception followed, with most of the =3D youth hanging=3D20 around and "eating" the Italian Cream Cake, and Chocolate/Peanut Butter = =3D treats,=3D20 in a beautifully decorated, candle-lit Fellowship Hall.&nbsp;&nbsp; The = =3D program=3D20 started at 7:00 PM and ended at 8:05.&nbsp;&nbsp; The reception was =3D still going=3D20 at 8:45, but, by 9 PM, most people had cleared out, because all the food = =3D was=3D20 gone.&nbsp;&nbsp; Did I mention that the youth stayed for the=3D20 reception?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>And, even though I didn't take an offering, or ask = =3D for=3D20 donations, we still received $227 left in a basket that was there for =3D decoration=3D20 in the foyer.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Respects,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Mark Reeves, Dir. of Music/Organist<BR><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:mreeves@vzinet.com">mreeves@vzinet.com</A><BR>First UMC - = =3D Canton,=3D20 Texas<BR><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328">http://netministri= =3D es.org/see/churches/ch02328</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_035E_01BF265F.ED384620--