PipeChat Digest #1175 - Sunday, November 28, 1999
 
New Pipe Organ
  by "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "Evelyn Rowe" <efrowe@mindspring.com>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "Maynard Cuppy" <cuppy.maynard@mcleodusa.net>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: New Pipe Organ
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 


(back) Subject: New Pipe Organ From: "Jason D. Comet" <bombarde8@juno.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 02:40:29 -0500   How do I start proposing to the church about the purchase and enlargement of the music department (wing) and organ.   The organ I play (a 1913 M.P. Moller-electrified in 1961) is in desperate need of rebuild/enlargement. I have told the choir director and she agrees with me. Having not been a trained organist, she does not enjoy playing it. Shw says that the instrument should be fun to play and this one is not. I find it to be a little trigger-happy. The keyboards do not have tracker touch and you press three keys if you are jumping to other keys. This instrument is in a congregational church. The styl eof music is very sparatic- performing music from Vivaldi to John Micheal Montgomery. The 22 ranks that this organ has is rather limitingin both dynamics , accompaniment, and solo literature. We play during the silent prayer quietly then the pastors give the final prayer and the amen then we crescendo during the intro and then the congregation sings. However, the congregation says it is too loud. The service is broadcasted over the radio waves and a silent prayer does not go over very well. So we have to play something. I only use the Vox Celeste (single TC rank) with the box closed tightly. Too loud. We have found a keyboard sound that is somewhat pleaseing, but it does not lead the congregation very well. We have tried to add the organ, but it is too abrupt. we (the choir director and I) see the need for a new and larger instrument, but the church says they cannot afford it. Which is a load of bull. They just had a $90,000 remodel job done on the Fellowship Hall which is payed off already. The work was started in December and was completed in May and payed off in June. The weekly offerings average around $2,000 a week. A 2 story education wing was payed off in a year, they bought (yes, bought) the property around the church and converted it to a parking lot less than 3 years ago. Again, payed off with in a year. They had their stained-glass windows rebuilt a couple of years ago. All 40 of them-payed off in a year. To me, it certainly doesn't look like they have a money problem. But, when it comes to the music department, they don't give a horses' ---.   They hired the choir director when they were tired of having on-and-off musicians for a couple of decades and the only thing she said was that she wanted a piano in the choirloft (because she does most of the service playing on the piano). They bought a Roland keyboard (yes, keyboard) that has had to be repaired several time in the past four years. The Choir Room is more like a closet with a lot of carpeting. It doesn't even have a window. You Choir directors know how hot it gots in a room when you have over 20 people singing for two hours! The Chimes on the organ (well, actually a miniature keyboard attached to the console right where you damage your leg when you get on and off the bench. That is falling apart LITERALLY!!!! (it is being held together with duck-tape) It is one of those Mass-Rowe Vibra-chord things. The speaker is buried underneathe the Great chest between the main reservoir and the 2' thick solid oak facade (which is all dinged and cracked up.) And it doesn't even work completely and is not loud enough. The choir loft is literally falling down. When they installed the education wing, they cut out some of the support for the choirloft. Then wneh the remodeled the Fellowship Hall, they cut a big hole in the brick support wall to gain some room for the stage. The organ facade is falling down. The center facade windchest for the speaking pipes has fallen off the supports. The organ-technician was not called when the organ blower quit. They called the local electrician. The switch for the organ is right next to the breaker for the sanctuary lights. They have shut the organ off several times during the postlude when turning off the lights. "HEY!!! YOU TURNED OFF THE ORGAN!!!!!" I have tried to put stops on the breaker, but they take them off. If you feel the breaker, you could cook an egg on it! The Choir loft is extremely small for the 20+ choir members, the console and keyboard take up sooooo much room. They have thought about taking the organ out and installing an electronic. I said, "The choir director and I will leave the moment the last pipe is taken out of this church. The moment an organ pipe is reinstated, we will come back. I can find many other organists who feel the same way." They have started "snooping" around in the organ and taking some pipes out.   I love the church, but the facilities I have to work with are JUST NOT good quality or good for use at all. They could easily take out the back wall of the chamber and enlarge it. A new music department coule easily be built on top of the education wing with a larger organ chamber, a larger organ, a single level to the choir loft, a larger choir loft, and an elevator making each level of the building 100% accessible. That would be expensive, but they could pay if off in a couple of years. They don't have handbells, a tower (but yet it is a tall, stone, gothis building), a grand piano, a good sound system, or lightswitches! This is a shame for the music department is 90% of the service of the church.   If you have any suggestions for me or the choir director to get our new music department, please tell me! We love the congregation and the acoustics of this building and we are in controll of ONLY the music department.   Thanks for the help,   Jason Comet bombarde8@juno.com |\ Organist/Choir Director | | 2/22 M.P. Moller pipe organ O 20+ member choir   ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:11:00 -0600   Jason D. Comet wrote:   > The organ I play (a 1913 M.P. Moller-electrified in 1961) is in = desperate > need of rebuild/enlargement.   Do you know whether the mechanism was entirely replaced in 1961, or were the originally tubular primaries merely electrified? If the latter this is rather bad news, since the original 1913 mechanism would probably have been Moller bar-and-membrane tubular, which it would be almost impossible and even if possible extremely ill-advised to restore. Unless your instrument had the bar-and-membrane chests replaced with new electro-pneumatic ones in 1961, I would strongly recommend ditching your present instrument altogether and replacing it with a new one, retaining any of the ranks of pipes from the previous instrument that you consider worth saving. Alternatively, if you don't have the money for a new instrument, you might consider looking for a good secondhand instrument through the Organ Clearing House, at http://www.organclearinghouse.com   John Speller  
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:15:56   At 02:40 AM 11/27/1999 -0500, Jason Meteorite wrote: >How do I start proposing to the church about the purchase and enlargement >of the music department (wing) and organ. > >The organ I play (a 1913 M.P. Moller-electrified in 1961) is in desperate >need of rebuild/enlargement. I have told the choir director and she >agrees with me. Having not been a trained organist, she does not enjoy >playing it. Shw says that the instrument should be fun to play and this >one is not. =20 >I find it to be a little trigger-happy. The keyboards do not have >tracker touch and you press three keys if you are jumping to other keys.=20 >This instrument is in a congregational church. The styl eof music is >very sparatic- performing music from Vivaldi to John Micheal Montgomery.=20 ><snipping much "bitch, bitch, bitch" stuff>   >I have tried to put stops on the breaker, but >they take them off. If you feel the breaker, you could cook an egg on it!<snip>   "Putting stops on breakers" is an excellent way to burn down the sanctuary. Circuit breakers are there for a PURPOSE...to PROTECT the circuit for current overload. "Putting stops" on them leaves the circuit unprotected and liable to catch fire at any time. You would be held responsible for such a transgression of common sense. DO NOT DO THIS!   <snipping more "bitch,bitch,bitch">   >I love the church, but the facilities I have to work with are JUST NOT >good quality or good for use at all.<snip>   So...quit!   >If you have any suggestions for me or the choir director to get our new >music department, please tell me! We love the congregation and the >acoustics of this building and we are in controll of ONLY the music >department.<snip>   Obviously, rehabbing the old M=F5ller is not one of the congregation's top priorities. I'll bet I could find a lot of value in that old instrument, contrary to your rantings. I'm sure Brewse (hehehe!) would have rather it been left un-electrocted, but..oh well! The manual problem can be fixed fairly easily, no doubt. As for congregants stealing pipework, why don't you call the county sheriff? Being confrontational with the congregants will only weaken, not strengthen, your position. Mellow out.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:55:44 -0800       "Jason D. Comet" wrote:   > How do I start proposing to the church about the purchase and = enlargement > of the music department (wing) and organ. >   (massive snippage of massive problems)   Jason, sometimes a situation is just plain hopeless. I have spent most of = my life waiting for roofs to be repaired, parking lots to be paved, mortgages = to be paid off, etc. so that the church could FINALLY get around to the = ORGAN. In most cases, it was a fruitless wait. In the cases where the organ = finally DID fail, they usually ran out and bought whatever was available on the showroom floor of the local electronic dealer ...the cheapest model, to be SURE.   Yes, I also had some successes, but they were few and far between. And in = the most notable case (the moving and restoration of the Koehnken & Grimm = tracker for the Shrine of the Immaculata in Cincinnati), the paint was hardly dry = in the organ-loft before the Pastor fired the organist and did away with the music program altogether ... a megalomanic, if there ever was one. "The people don't give more when there's music, so why have it? It just costs money."   It sounds to me like there are some really dangerous things in your church .... you MIGHT try reporting those to the local building inspection = authority, but that'll probably just get you fired.   I'd start sending out resumes, if I were you.   Sorry!   Bud        
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:17:48 -0500   > I'd start sending out resumes, if I were you. > > Sorry!   Or just suck it up and deal. Moellers aren't -that- bad, after all. My mother played a tubular-pneumatic for years and years and....UGH!....ok, = so you have a point. I don't know your instrument.   But look at it this way. It's better than a Hammond! (No offense to anyone who has one!)   -Rebekah who is now chasing the ferret around the house before he eats all my groceries    
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:28:54 -0600   Rebekah Ingram wrote:   > Or just suck it up and deal. Moellers aren't -that- bad, after all. My > mother played a tubular-pneumatic for years and years and....UGH!....ok, = so > you have a point. I don't know your instrument. > > But look at it this way. It's better than a Hammond!   Maybe in some cases, but 't'aint always necessarily so. If Jason's = description is accurate, I might go for the Hammond....    
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:30:22 -0600       Noel Stoutenburg wrote:   > Maybe in some cases, but 't'aint always necessarily so. If Jason's = description > is accurate, I might go for the Hammond....   After all, ya can't steal pipes from the Hammond.        
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:34:11 -0500   Noel wrote:   > > Maybe in some cases, but 't'aint always necessarily so. If Jason's description > > is accurate, I might go for the Hammond.... > > After all, ya can't steal pipes from the Hammond.   <snicker> Good point. But you can steal wiring!!   -Rebekah      
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:03:11 -0800       Rebekah Ingram wrote:   > > I'd start sending out resumes, if I were you. > > > > Sorry! > > Or just suck it up and deal. Moellers aren't -that- bad, after all. My > mother played a tubular-pneumatic for years and years and....UGH!....ok, = so > you have a point. I don't know your instrument. > > But look at it this way. It's better than a Hammond! (No offense to = anyone > who has one!)   I do, and it IS, too ... I've PLAYED a bar & membrane tubular pneumatic = Moller and lived to tell about it (grin).   Bud Organist du Grand Hammond Eglise St. Matthew-in-the-Mall Newport Beach CA USA   > > > -Rebekah > who is now chasing the ferret around the house before he eats all my > groceries > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "Evelyn Rowe" <efrowe@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:19:58 -0500   At 02:40 AM 11/27/1999 -0500, Jason wrote: >How do I start proposing to the church about the purchase and enlargement >of the music department (wing) and organ. >   It shouldn't be too hard to arrange for this instrument to expire altogether at some critical moment, such as 9:58 on Easter morning. ;^) Your tuner/technician might have some suggestions as to how it might be done. At St. Paul's K we found this out the hard way when first the main building & grounds honcho and then the organist died without imparting the secret of lubricating the 1920-something blower bearings; the second time was just before the installation of a new rector.   Is it possible to get your wardens (or equivalent lay leadership) to accompany you to a church that has a really good organ, for demonstration purposes? Don't any of these people sing in the choir? If they don't, now's the time for a recruitment pitch.   Evie   mailto:efrowe@mindspring.com  
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: <Prestant16@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:22:41 EST   $2,000 a week is not a whole lot. Once you add up expenses there isn't = much left at all. It is likely the money for other projects have come from a wealthy parish member of a few of them. The church I am at brings in over =   $4,000 a week. The church can't afford someone to come and repair the = organ, so I have taken over doing the work of releathering and reparing. Not to mention a big project (long term) of enlarging the 30 rank instrument (4 ranks wasted in a pedal mixture) by about 5 ranks. Talk about an = insturment that is insufficent, the room in 1,200 seats and my only Open Diapason is like a DULCIANA! and I only have one reed, a Trumpet in the unenclosed swell, that extends into the pedal at 16'. The organ needs to be = completely releathered, re-wired and enlarged, no money at this time though. So even though it seems the church may have plenty of money, look = closer, it is not always the case.   -William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "Maynard Cuppy" <cuppy.maynard@mcleodusa.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:25:25 -0600   Reminds me of a similar situation several years ago in my home town. Their old Hinners was falling apart, but it took one of the large facade pipes falling down during a Sunday service and nearly hitting the minister on = the head to spur them to action. Maybe a disaster is what it will take. = Churches are always poor when it comes to spending money on the music department, = but they always insist that it be there. You need to find out who the movers = and shakers are in the congregation and plead your cause to them. It helps if = the minister is on your side, but I'm not sure how much it matters if the = money crowd is interested. Maynard     Jason D. Comet wrote: The organ facade is falling down.        
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:32:44 -0500 (EST)     >Or just suck it up and deal. Moellers aren't > -that- bad, after all. My mother played a > tubular-pneumatic for years and years > and....UGH!....ok, so you have a point. Good argument! hehehe   >...who is now chasing the ferret around the > house before he eats all my groceries Good luck catching your Yuppi-rat. I hear they make nice coats!! hehehehe   bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: When To Hold 'Em and When To Fold 'Em From: "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:35:05 -0500 (EST)   >Maybe in some cases, but 't'aint always > necessarily so. If Jason's description is > accurate, I might go for the Hammond.... >After all, ya can't steal pipes from the > Hammond. No.... but I hear those little tone wheels make really cool charm bracelets. ;-)     bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:52:44   At 02:11 PM 11/27/1999 -0600, you wrote: >Jason D. Comet wrote: > >> The organ I play (a 1913 M.P. Moller-electrified in 1961) is in desperate >> need of rebuild/enlargement. > >Do you know whether the mechanism was entirely replaced in 1961, or were >the originally tubular primaries merely electrified? If the latter this >is rather bad news, since the original 1913 mechanism would probably >have been Moller bar-and-membrane tubular, which it would be almost >impossible and even if possible extremely ill-advised to restore.<snip>   Yup, such is fact. The M=F6ller bar-and-membrane chests were a one-shot device if there ever was one. I've heard that SOME craftsmen are able to get the leather "pouched" JUST right to make them work, but I surely don't know the secret! If such is the case, saving the pipework is about the only avenue, as was stated. I don't think any other builder used these curiousities.   dB  
(back) Subject: Re: New Pipe Organ From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:57:15   At 08:22 PM 11/27/1999 EST,Prestant16 wrote: >Not to mention a big project (long term) of enlarging the 30 rank instrument (4 >ranks wasted in a pedal mixture) by about 5 ranks.<snip>   A pedal mixture is hardly a waste, properly utilized!   >Talk about an insturment that is insufficent, the room in 1,200 seats and my >only Open Diapason is like a DULCIANA! and I only have one reed, a Trumpet >in the unenclosed swell, that extends into the pedal at 16'. The organ needs to >be completely releathered, re-wired and enlarged, no money at this time >though.<snip>   ....and the pipe patooties wonder why electronics are bought! I'd gather this instrument is from the '50s or '60s, and it already going to pieces? This isn't a very impressive lifespan, at all! To the unmusical person, the choice is pretty obvious....   DeserTBoB