PipeChat Digest #1056 - Saturday, September 4, 1999
 
Temperament & Tuning
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Temperament & Tuning
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Dupre CD's (PipeChat Digest #1054 - 09/03/99)
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Music Writing Software
  by "Shirley" <pnst@snip.net>
Robert Hebble
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Music Writing Software
  by <prswank@impop.bellatlantic.net>
Professional Section Leaders
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Tibia Tonalty (was National Shrine Kilgen Restoration  Update)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
a-mens on hymns
  by "John Weit" <weit1098@kutztown.edu>
Handel composition............
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "mreeves@vzinet.com" <mreeves@vzinet.com>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by <prswank@impop.bellatlantic.net>
Amens on hymns..............
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Temperament & Tuning
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
re:temperament & tuning
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Temperament & Tuning From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 10:54:02 EDT   I have noticed a string started by Mr. Bruce Cornely about his organ and wished to offer some info.   Here in Worcester some of you may know about the large 4man Taylor & Boody =   at Holy Cross College. This organ is in un-equal temperament. It also has =   the option to be manually pumped or not. But the key info to this string = is this:   The flue pipes are cut to length with minor adjustments made by Taylor & Boody at the final instalation. Mr. Stephan Mier is the gent. who usually =   comes in to tune for the changing seasons and had told me the only = pipework he tunes are the reeds. All flue work stays exactly where it is and reeds =   are tuned to them.   No of course this does lead to some rather intersting "wolfs" here and = there during different seasons BUT.... This "out of tunness" seems to be something most European organists have dealt with for ages. How many times have we heard recordings of French Organs out of tune and shrugged it off saying, "oh well it's French - what =   do you want?" The way I understand it..... this expierince is just past of owning an = organ in un-equal temperament and is just 'dealt with'. Consider it part of the =   charm or uniquness of the instrument. On a side note - it also makes us better musicians. No longer are we spoiled Americans who have equal temperament all the time and can play = what ever we wish when ever we wish - now our organ is helping us make some musical choices! ;-) I would suggest: find out what music still sounds good on your instrument when the "heat is on / or the heat is off" so to speak and play till your hearts content!   P.S. When playing the Taylor & Boody and comming across a 'sour note' most =   usually shrug it off and say - "Oh, that organ sounds soooooo North = German".   The_Maitre   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Temperament & Tuning From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:15:42 -0400 (EDT)         >Here in Worcester some of you may know > about the large 4man Taylor & Boody at Holy > Cross College. This organ is in un-equal > temperament. Isn't the above organ a mean-tone temperament, which is a very severe (and therefore VERY beautiful) temperament?   >The flue pipes are cut to length with minor > adjustments made by Taylor & Boody at the > final instalation. Mr. Stephan Mier is the gent. > who usually comes in to tune for the changing > seasons and had told me the only pipework > he tunes are the reeds. All flue work stays > exactly where it is and reeds are tuned to > them. There are two key ingredients above, neither of which have we been blessed! First the pipes are cut to length and cone tuned which makes them very stable. Our, however, have tuning collars, some of which are screwed tight on bass pipes, other which fit so tightly that some pipes have been damaged. An advantage being that the temperament can be relatively easily changed, the disadvantage being that the final tuning is not stable because of migration of the slides with weather changes.   >How many times have we heard recordings of > French Organs out of tune and shrugged it off > saying, "oh well it's French - what do you > want?" Most of the time when I've heard this it's been in reference to organs such as NotreDame which are very large with buckets-o-reeds and no A/C which renders them either fuzzy or wild most of the time. I have a recording of the Vierne mass which has some real whoppers in the tuning.   > Consider it part of the charm or uniquness of >the instrument. On a side note - it also makes > us better musicians. It took me a while to get used to the sound, but like anything else worthwhile often requires training and practice. I play a wide range of literature and have found the unequal temperament, using the Valotti-Young system, gives new life to even romantic literature. I first noticed this on the Franck E-major Chorale. I also play several of the Rheinberger sonatas including the D-flat and it simply adds beauty and great interest. I also find that my choir becomes more conscious of pure intervals in singing after they have heard them on the organ.   I would really love to play the T&B one day, and especially would like to snuggle down to it every day (and twice on Sunday!).   Thanks to The_Maitre for his post.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Dupre CD's (PipeChat Digest #1054 - 09/03/99) From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:34:33 +0100   >Now for something on topic. I purchased three of the Dupre Organ Works >series on Naxos and have discovered a fairly mixed bag. Some of it's really >good and some is only OK (IMHO). The recordings and the organs seem fine so >maybe Dupre was a tad inconsistent as a composer. So far the best was >recorded in Nashville on a Casavant by (IIRC) Janet Fischell (?) and I >believe it's volume 4 or 5. It starts with three early preludes and fugues, >including the g minor which is very nicely played. Does anyone else have >any thoughts on this series. Are the lower volumes better (vols. 1 - 3)? > >Cheers, Steve Chandler >PS. Anyone interested in hearing my original compositions is invited to; >www.mp3.com/stevechandler     I have Volume 1 of this series: It contains: 24 Inventions, 6 Chorales & 2 Chorales, and 4 Modal Fugues They are all wells played on a 4 manual Cassavant in Providence R.I by James Biery. Some of them are fairly hard to listen to, and are certainly not his best works. The 24 inventions are, I think meant for student training. On another CD of mine I have his "Suite Evocation" which is in 3 movements and is very good. It would be interesting to hear what the other 5 CD's were like.   Richard P.S. I haven't visited your compositions yet - but I will!!!    
(back) Subject: Music Writing Software From: Shirley <pnst@snip.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 12:00:51 -0400   Hi, folks -   In the past couple of weeks, someone (Bud, was it you?) wrote these lists asking about music writing software.   Check out http://www.jwpepper.com. Click on "Browse the Catalogs", and then "Software" and then "Music Writing...". There is a thorough review = of MANY brands of software out there, with a link to click to d/l the trial version of some of them.   Hope that helps.   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Robert Hebble From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:02:41 EDT   I have the Londonderry Air down at Church - I will post when I get back = from my Two Saturday Masses - until then.....   The_Maitre   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Music Writing Software From: prswank@impop.bellatlantic.net Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 15:29:32 -0400   Shirley, Thanks you for the info about JWPepper's listing of music notation = software. I just printed out the whole section and will now be able to look it over at = my leisure to decide which I should have. I have already ordered Sibelius, since it was so prominently displayed in = the TAO, but I don't believe, from the description it works with MIDI. We will = see.   Thanks again, Paul R. Swank Organist/Choirmaster (Retired) Christ Lutheran Church-LCMS Dundalk, MD   Shirley wrote:   > Hi, folks - > > In the past couple of weeks, someone (Bud, was it you?) wrote these = lists > asking about music writing software. > > Check out http://www.jwpepper.com. Click on "Browse the Catalogs", and > then "Software" and then "Music Writing...". There is a thorough review = of > MANY brands of software out there, with a link to click to d/l the trial > version of some of them. > > Hope that helps. > > --Shirley > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Professional Section Leaders From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:13:18 EDT   Good topic here!   Last year when the National Shrine of the Little Flower conducted it's national search for a new Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination, I =   know for a fact that the three finalists (myself included as one of them) = all said that they expected at least a professional quartet to serve as = section leaders/soloists. Monsignor knowing that the church would be elevated to = a National Shrine also sought to "beef up" the music program, especially the =   Parish Choir, substantially from what it had been in past decades. From = what I know presently, we are only one of two Roman Catholic churches in the Archdiocese that has a professional quartet- the other being the Cathedral = of the Most Blessed Sacrament where my friend Dr. Norah Duncan is the = organist and director.   We hired the four last fall (of 1998) and that was the first time in literally decades that the Shrine had paid singers again. In the "old = days" Fr. Coughlin demanded the absolute very best and the entire mixed choir = and the gentlemen of the Choir of Men and Boys were all paid. (Oh to have = THOSE funds again!) But we will maintain the four again this year, the second year of the professional Schola, and next year augment to eight. At that point we = will have the "tier" system with the soloists being the top tier making the highest salary and the second tier making a lesser salary but nonetheless competitive.   I would be very interested to know what other churches use for contracts/memorandums of agreement with their professional singers, what = is expected, what they are paid and how many professionals they have.   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: Re: Tibia Tonalty (was National Shrine Kilgen Restoration Update) From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 18:18:39 EDT   In a message dated 9/4/99 1:39:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, budchris@earthlink.net writes:   << Fascinating reading, and informative, Bruce; I think that Scott was probably making a much simpler point: the Kilgen was originally built and voiced = to be enclosed; over the years, "baroque" enthusiasts removed shades here and there; now it's been restored to its original configuration.   Exactly right indeed. Thank heavens no major revoicing was redone- only = the Main Great 2' Fifteenth and the top two ranks of the 7-rank Plain Jeu in = the same division were "opened up" in the late 60's and 70's. And if I said = that the tibia (called "Gross Gedeckt") had overtones, that is not what I = meant. It does have that hollow, singing/almost wailing, rich and gasping tone = that good tibias are expected to have. It truly sings and is very lush. When = it is mixed with the strings and voxes and select reeds- I swear it sounds = like a true in-the-theatre theatre organ.       I'm sure it still makes PLENTY of sound (grin). Oh yes. =3Do)       Taking the shades off the Kilgen Great would be akin to removing the = shades from an E.M. Skinner Choir organ, as was done at St. John's on Flower Street = in LA, or taking them off the Great AND PEDAL of the great old Casavant at = Redlands University (which HASN'T been done). And anyway, you need the 32' reed = under expression to play "In the Year that King Uzziah Died" (grin).   The National Shrine's 32' reed IS under expression which makes it VERY flexible. >>  
(back) Subject: a-mens on hymns From: "John Weit" <weit1098@kutztown.edu> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:32:38 -0400   Greetings!   First a small introduction....I am a sophomore at Kutztown University in = PA. I recently started as Director of Music at a medium sized UCC church in reading, PA.   Now for my reason for writing. I wanted to get some opinions on whether = or not to sing the A-men's on hymns. We use the old E&R hymnal...and they = all include them. In the past 4 churches I've served, they've never sung the a-mens, even if they were printed.   Someone told me once that they are not musically correct....can anyone elaborate on this?   Apparently this congregation has always sang the a-mens and since I've = been there (almost two months) we haven't. Nobody has questioned the fact, but it is on the agenda for a Worship Committee meeting this week...so I = thought it would be nice to have some other organists opinions to back me up.   If they really want the a-mens, I will more than gladly play them....but we'll see after the meeting.   Thanks!   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Weit weit1098@kutztown.edu Director of Music Grace (Alsace) United Church of Christ - Reading, PA =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D      
(back) Subject: Handel composition............ From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:00:50 EDT   Greetings,   anyone know where I can get my hands (and feet) on a copy =   of the "Marche Grand Choeur" from "Joshua" by G. F. Handel? I know there's =   an organ arrangement out there somewhere. Thanks!   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: "Dr. Darryl Miller" <organdok@safari.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:02:10 -0400   John, you said: > >Someone told me once that they are not musically correct....can anyone >elaborate on this?   If memory serves me (and it's getting more fuzzy as time marches on!), = Erik Routley said that an "amen" should be sung only when the Doxology is present in the text of the hymn. Please don't ask me to quote chapter and verse, because I'm not sure I can at this point.   I know that may sound ambiguous, but after careful examination of several texts, it will become apparent when, according to Routley, to add a sung Amen at the conclusion of the hymn.   This has caused quite a problem in my life, too, since a former hymnal in our weekly use had amens on everyting. So . . . I understand!   Yours,   Darryl by the Sea    
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: mreeves@vzinet.com (mreeves@vzinet.com) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 20:05:50 -0000   I use this rule on determining the validity of an AMEN at the end of the hymn.   Read the text. If it is, or can be construed as a "prayer," then put an AMEN on it.   It's really a judgement call. I don't know that there is an "official" rule.   Mark Reeves Dir. of Music/Organist First UMC, Canton, Tx http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328    
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: prswank@impop.bellatlantic.net Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:29:19 -0400   John, The personal rule I've always followed is, "if the amen is there I play = it." I have done this in every type of church high, low, evangelical, liturgical, in-between. If the hymnal of the church where you are playing has them, = then it seems to follow that the amens are "approved" by the powers that be of the denomination. Also, the congregation had to have decided to purchase the hymnals, and by doing so, certainly knew the amens were there. I am = surprised that some helpful person hasn't spoken to you on the side with what was = done before you were appointed. You should have one person designated to whom = you direct all questions, whether it be the chairman of the Worship Committee, = the pastor of the church, the president of the congregation, etc. Try to get = a clear line of authority from the Worship Committee at the scheduled = meeting. Helpful hints, I hope.   Paul R. Swank Organist/Choirmaster (Retired (36 years)) Christ Lutheran Church-LCMS Dundalk, MD   John Weit wrote:   > Greetings! > > First a small introduction....I am a sophomore at Kutztown University in = PA. > I recently started as Director of Music at a medium sized UCC church in > reading, PA. > > Now for my reason for writing. I wanted to get some opinions on whether = or > not to sing the A-men's on hymns. We use the old E&R hymnal...and they = all > include them. In the past 4 churches I've served, they've never sung = the > a-mens, even if they were printed. > > Someone told me once that they are not musically correct....can anyone > elaborate on this? > > Apparently this congregation has always sang the a-mens and since I've = been > there (almost two months) we haven't. Nobody has questioned the fact, = but > it is on the agenda for a Worship Committee meeting this week...so I = thought > it would be nice to have some other organists opinions to back me up. > > If they really want the a-mens, I will more than gladly play them....but > we'll see after the meeting. > > Thanks! > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > John Weit weit1098@kutztown.edu > Director of Music > Grace (Alsace) United Church of Christ - Reading, PA > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Amens on hymns.............. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:33:43 EDT   Well, here's my 2 cents on this topic. Being an organist/choir director in =   Catholic churches all my life, I've never had to worry about amens at the ends of hymns. Roman Catholic hymnals don't put Amens at the end of their hymns. But, whenever I've played in other churches, if there's an Amen there, I play it. At my church, we use CBW I, II, III, Gather, Glory & Praise, plus octavos, anthems and other compositions. I'd have to say that =   in the choir's repertoire, there's MAYBE, at the most, 5 cases where = there's an Amen at the end. One member of the choir (she's a convert), once told = me "singing Amen at the end of a hymn is strictly a "Protestant" thing to = do"". Oh well, whatever it is, it sounds weird singing it at the end of most hymns. Like I said, if it's written there, then I do it. Otherwise, no way =   Piern=E9!   Carlo p.s. you say Amen, I say Ah-men, let's call the whole thing ORFF!!!   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 18:41:07 -0700   I follow the rule in the old Episcopal hymnal (which prints 'em, or not, = as the case may be), which is basically the same, plus any hymn that ends = with the Trinitarian doxology ..."O Father that we ask be done" or "O Jesu, Virgin-Born to Thee", etc., and I missed them when I was playing in a = parish that used the new Hymnal (no "amens", period). Even some of the hymns in = the '40 that don't have it seem to call for it, but I stick to the book.   Cheers,   Bud   "mreeves@vzinet.com" wrote:   > I use this rule on determining the validity of an AMEN at the end of the > hymn. > > Read the text. If it is, or can be construed as a "prayer," then put = an > AMEN on it. > > It's really a judgement call. I don't know that there is an "official" > rule. > > Mark Reeves > Dir. of Music/Organist > First UMC, Canton, Tx > http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch02328 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: Blaine Ricketts <blaineri@home.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 18:52:35 -0700   I was always led to believe that if the Trinity was mentioned in the last = line, sing AMEN.   Blaine Ricketts    
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 18:57:06 -0700   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > (snip)   > Roman Catholic hymnals don't put Amens at the end of their > hymns..   Not so, Carlo ... see my recent post on this thread. The OFFICIAL, LATIN = hymnal, the Hymnarium (incorporating the hymns of the Antiphonale, etc.) DOES have amens. Surely you sing "amen" at the end of the Pange lingua and the Crux fidelis.   For modern hymns, as I said, I can see the argument both ways ... but for = the liturgical hymns, no. They have 'em, we sing 'em.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Temperament & Tuning From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:14:14 -0400 (EDT)   Oh, to have 4 manuals with several stops out of tune, to have to make musical choices for.   Alas! I have the sad task of playing a II/24 Schantz in a divided chancel. So the Swell is on right, Great is on the left, and, such a cross I must bear, they pretty much stay in tune with each other season in, season out. What's a poor organist to do?!?   Such a pity. I have no place to put 4 registrants, as the console is in a pit, but I do have a whopping 4 levels of memory. What's a poor organist to do?!?   I'll just have to make do. 8-)   --Neil Barnegat USA   P.S: the tongue is very much in cheek    
(back) Subject: re:temperament & tuning From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 22:34:59 EDT   A bit of explaination: I do not play (regularly) the 4man Taylor & Boody at Holy Cross - I = studied under James David which is why I have expierience with the organ. I never =   had registrants (4 ?!?) - when playing a 4man North German Traker - Jim would say "to play it like a North German Traker" only one 8' out on a division at a time, sparing coupling, use of terrace dynamics, yada yada yada yada.   I do (however) play a 4man Casavant which does stay in-tune pretty well (except the week of the AGO convention when it was 98 degree's) And only 5 generals with one memory level, (oh what is a poor organist = to do ?)   My first organ instructor (Dr. Elizabeth Braunig - God Bless her) taught = me a trick. When manually changing registrations - take a pen/pencil and = move it from the right side jamb to the left - or vice-a- versa when drawing/retiring stops. Doing this swiftly over time and you find that = your stop manipulation skills have increased in speed and dexterity and you'll have plenty of time to make your changes. (of course we're not talking about Voix Celestes 8' to quick change of Fonds et Anches - but you get = the idea!)   All the Best,   The_Maitre   (Toungue somewhat in cheek - most certainly in mouth) ;-)   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:38:49 -0400 (EDT)   Darryl by the sea, your reply seems to make sense about the Doxology and Amen. I do know that Mr. Routley also said that amens are not truly part of the Reformed tradition (this was part of a study done by RCA a few years ago, I understand), since technically speaking Reformed congregations would have sung melody--so no 4-part chords on the Landini cadence. I have seen where Amens can have an enormously uplifting effect, but I've also experienced the balloon burst of a needless Amen. To our friend who posted the question, I would be openminded about your worship meeting. You may be pleasantly surprised. --Neil