PipeChat Digest #1057 - Saturday, September 4, 1999
 
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
A-mens
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: Amens - liturgical reasoning
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Sand Lawn" <sandlawn@prodigy.net>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Barbara Eppley" <beppley@acorn.net>
Re: A-mens
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
San Francisco AGO 1984
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
RE:Amens
  by "jeff korns" <jakorns@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Evelyn Rowe" <efrowe@mindspring.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: A-mens
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Canadian Roman Catholic music directors.....
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Handel composition............
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:44:37 -0700   I take the position, with Erik Routley, that 98% (my estimate, not his) of "amens" that hymnals (old ones, for new ones, thank God, have abandoned = the practice) print are absurd, not to say an abomination unto the Lord. In his book, _Church Music and the Christian Faith_ (Carol Stream, IL: = Agape, 1978), Routley rightly points out that spoken amens in the early church were the people's response to prayers the priest said, especially the = great prayer at the eucharist. "At any time when one voice says a prayer and = all voices respond, the simplest and most ancient response is 'amen.' The use of the word at the end of a hymn which everybody has sung has therefore, = at first sight, no justification whatever"--because there is no need to respond to oneself. "But the custom has an origin whcih has deceived many people into considering it a modern necessity. The fact is that all the ancient Ambrosian hymns end with a trinitarian doxology followed by = 'Amen.' It is believed that Ambrose himself composed songs for orthodox Christians to sing in reply to certain songs invented and sung in a belligerent = spirit by the unorthodox Arians, who at this time (the later fourth century) were in open conflict with the orthodox. It may therefore have been the custom for some to sing the hymn, and all within earshot to sing a responsive 'amen'--'That's what we all believe about the Trinity' (the point largely in dispute)." In light of this, it seems risible to believe today, as some do, that every time the Trinity is mentioned in a hymn that we must sing amen at the end. We should only be doing that, in the true Ambrosian sprit, if there are some Arians around whose heresy we wish to counter. Indeed, perhaps only if those Arians are singing belligerent anti-Trinitarian hymns. There is, in other words, nothing inherent in the Trinity itself that demands an Amen. Just something inherent in the 4th-century controversy about the Trinity between Ambrosians and Arians. Routley continues: "Ambrosian hymnody, however, very soon developed in monastic settings rather than controversial ones, and here we are on firm ground--their plainsong tunes always included an amen after = the doxology, which still always stood at the end. It is reasonably certain that liturgically these office hymns... were sung antiphonally. We should not by any means assume that the doxology was sung by all present, but we can more safely assume that the amen was." In light of this, it seems like a good idea to sing the amen after singing the doxology. In my church, that's about the only time we do it. Routley, again: "However, the whole nature of hymnody changed at the Reformation." [Right! We aren't singing monastic chant most of the time in, say, Presbyterian churches.] "There was no question of singing amen at the end of hymns in Luther's time (nor has there ever been such a tradition in the German-speaking churches).... In fact, in the English = and early American system of hymnody, amen is never sung after hymns until the mid-nineteenth century. Isaac Watts and Charles and John Wesley knew nothing of it." [I can't help interjecting that Luther, Watts, and the Wesleys, if they could come back today, might well feel their work had = been defaced by the hackneyed plagal amens that have been tacked onto their creations. Kind of like a mustache on the Mona Lisa.] "What brought it back was the revived interest in medieval hymnody aroused in England by = the Oxford Movement from 1833 onward, generating a wave of translation from = the Latin which eventually made the whole Sarum system of Latin hymnody available in English. The doxologies, with their amens, were included in the translations. "So eager were the Tractarians to make it clear that the medieval culture alone was the pure religious culture, and medieval hymnody the proper norm for all other hymnody, that at a number of points in their hymnals they appended doxologies with amens to existing hymns. The most notorious instance was the adding of a spurious doxology to "When I survey the wondrous cross," but there were many others. Doxology or no, amen was added to every hymn, and since virtually every non-plainsong tune in that book ended with a perfect cadence the amens were set uniformly to a plagal cadence. This hymnal was the most famous of all hymnals, the 1861 edition of _Hymns Ancient and Modern_. "The custom spread through Anglican hymnals and was imitated by = the Congregationalists and Presbyterians, and to a limited extent by the Methodists and the Baptists, for no reason but the obscure and irrrational notion that the Church of England knew its work in matters of liturgy. Around 1920 the Anglicans recognized that adding amens had been an anachronism and an error, and began to abandon them. Obediently the nonconformists followed them at about a twenty-year interval, and by about 1950 the amen on hymns had virtually disappeared in Engliand, although it was retained for some time in Scotland. "Now consider what a patchwork of misunderstanding and anachronism all this is. Singing amen after post-Reformation hymns was unknown before about 1850. There is no older precedent for it, it was in any case an error, and those who initiated it have long repented of it. It is an excellent example of a custom which people still jealously guard in America, any criticism of which arouses great indignation, and any = argument against which is disregarded." (pp. 96-98) And to that let the people say AMEN!   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: A-mens From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 22:44:50 EDT   Greetings list,   The rule I use for Amens is: if it's there I play it. This follows my theory on all music (which annoys some people) - that if the composer took =   the time and wrote notes on the page - the least I can do is play them! (The folky people are the ones who get annoyed when I play the "real" introductions to "Eagles Wings" or "Be not Affraid" - claiming they never heard that music before - what the heck am I playing! (Oh well - we can only hope for more musicians and fewer #$%@#^%$)   And also: Thomas Day - Prof. at Salve Regina College, R.I. has written in =   his book, "Where Have You Gone Michaleangelo" that...... "congregations with knowledge of European ways and cultures usually say Ah-men. Whereas, people heck bent on proving thay thier Red Blooded Americans insist on saying Ay-men. To add to the confusion a Jewish = friend told me the 'correct' way of saying it was: Ah-main. I use Ah-men (my first job was at an Episcopal Church age 15) must have tainted my soul for life! ;-)   All the Best   The_Maitre   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 22:49:35 EDT   Bud & list,   sure thing......we sing amen at the end of such things = as "Pange Lingua, Tantum Ergo, Ubi Caritas, In Paradisum, and other things = that are gregorian, but as for things like "Holy God We Praise Thy Name", "Gift =   Of Finest Wheat", "O Come Divine Messiah" and other standard Roman = Catholic hymns, there are no written amens. 99% of Roman Catholic Hymnals that are being published today (by GIA or the CCCB) don't have them.   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens - liturgical reasoning From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 22:58:48 EDT   Greeting Again,   My Jewish friend and a Catholic Priest have both told me that "Amen" translated means, "Thus shall it be/ let it be" With this in mind...... it would seem to make sense (liturgically) to say Amen after a hymn.   After singing praise to God and singing of glorious deeds, mighty works, = or what ever.... why NOT sing "AMEN" - let it be thus ?   Just my own Opinion.   The_Maitre   p.s. Also found a AMEN on Of the Fathers Love Begotten - Catholic Hymn   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: "Sand Lawn" <sandlawn@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 22:02:33 -0700   In my church we only sing Amen's after the Doxology. Our hymnal, The New Century Hymnal, 1995, Pilgrim Press has no Amen's printed. Makes my life much simpler.   Sand Lawn Northminster Church Monroe, Louisiana        
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Barbara Eppley <beppley@acorn.net> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 99 23:10:52 EDT   I love all the Amens ...albeit the few that are left in the published hymnals. Frankly , my congregation gets more upset with the changes in verbage found in the Chalice Hymnal than in the lack of Amens... x -- The Eppley Family beppley@acorn.net lilkate06@aol.com blondi4692@aol.com Yrexlncy@aol.com Happy Comminicating!                                       q   x                                 The Eppley's: beppley@acorn.net,lilkate06@aol.com,blondi4692@aol.com,Yrexlncy@aol.com, smtp:eppleyg@bemis.com    
(back) Subject: Re: A-mens From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 23:16:35 -0700   Le Maitre writes:   "if the composer took >the time and wrote notes on the page - the least I can do is play them!"   Well, that's just it, isn't it? Neither Martin Luther nor Isaac Watts nor the Wesley brothers wrote any amens on any of their hymns. So by your reasoning, which I approve, don't play any amens tacked on by misinformed hymnal editors to hymns whose creators never wanted them there in the = first place.   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:25:11 EDT   I noticed that several people have mentioned gregorian chants....are = things like: Of the Father's Love Begotten, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ubi Caritas, Pange Lingua, Tantuum Ergo, In Paradisum considered "hymns" or chants? At = my church, we don't sing amens at the end of HYMNS.........gregorian chants = are different......   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: San Francisco AGO 1984 From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 23:47:17 -0400   My recollection of that last SF AGO National concert was 1) that I did = not like the last "80 Trombones" piece, and 2) that 3 of my sons who came to pick me up to go to Yosemite for the weekend popped in the door as the Trombone piece was playing. They asked after we left -- "Is that what you've been listening to all week?" Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: RE:Amens From: jeff korns <jakorns@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 22:59:11 -0500   Being in a church that has shifted to a more "contemporary" form of worship we don't sing many amens anymore. However, the congregation will still belt out an "Amen" on the majestic hymns eg: Holy Holy Holy, Crown Him with many Crowns, and the like. It tends to be those hymns that really lend themselves to an emotional crescendo on the final verse.(especially if I've switched from my synthesizers to the organ and finished on a "Everything-she's-got!" registration, even the "hand clappers" of the congregation are left emotionally overwhelmed). Jeff    
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:01:09 -0700   All except "In Paradisum" are Gregorian hymns and as such have amens = (though the tune and text of "Of the Father's Love Begotten" is a paraphrase of a = troped Sanctus melody, "Sanctus Divinum mysterium, Sanctus Alpha et Omega, = Sanctus flos de radice Jesse, Dominus Deus Sabaoth ex utero Maria Virgine", etc., = or whatever the actual text is ... you get the idea ...tropes most often = honored the BVM, particularly at Christmas-tide). "In Paradisum", being a = free-standing antiphon that lost its Psalm at some point in liturgical history, does = not.   Cheers,   Bud   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > I noticed that several people have mentioned gregorian chants....are = things > like: Of the Father's Love Begotten, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ubi = Caritas, > Pange Lingua, Tantuum Ergo, In Paradisum considered "hymns" or chants? = At my > church, we don't sing amens at the end of HYMNS.........gregorian chants = are > different...... > > Carlo > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Evelyn Rowe <efrowe@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 00:04:08 -0400   At 11:25 PM 9/4/99 -0400, Carlo Pietroniro wrote: >I noticed that several people have mentioned gregorian chants....are = things >like: Of the Father's Love Begotten, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ubi Caritas, =   >Pange Lingua, Tantuum Ergo, In Paradisum considered "hymns" or chants? At = my >church, we don't sing amens at the end of HYMNS.........gregorian chants = are >different......   Not necessarily. When the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) was, and still is, sung in monastery choirs, the whole service was in chant. The psalms would be chanted in psalm tones, and the Gospel canticles would be sung in somewhat more elaborate versions of the same. There would be simple chants for versicles and responses. There might be more elaborate chants for antiphons on psalms and the Short and Long Responds. There would also be an Office Hymn, which would vary seasonally; major feasts would have their own proper hymns.   "Of the Father's love begotten" and "Pange Lingua" are office hymns. "O come, O come Emmanuel" is a hymn composed of the Antiphons on the Magnificat from December 16 to December 23. "Tantum Ergo" is a hymn used at Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament -- don't know if it's also an office hymn for Corpus Christi. "In Paradisum," of course, is sung at the conclusion of a Requiem as the body is being borne from the church.   There's another Gregorian hymn format, the Sequence, which would be sung before the Gospel on feast days. "Lauda Sion" and "Veni Sancte Spiritus" are examples.   Hope this helps. Seeing as I'm writing this at midnight on a Saturday night, I may have erred in some of the details. Evie   mailto:efrowe@mindspring.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:12:23 -0700   I wouldn't (and don't) take Routley as the final word on this ... first of = all, he was a minister in the reformed tradition (Congregational?), and he = obviously had axes of various kinds to grind. "Abomination unto the Lord" is pretty strong language to describe an innocent "amen".   And if one thinks that there are no Arians (or other heretics) abroad = today, they have only to read the writings of certain Episcopalian (and other) divines, who currently call into question everything from Jesus' divinity = to His Resurrection. The Trinity? THAT musty old thing? They can't be = bothered even to demolish it (sigh).   I was baptised with the Trinitarian invocation (no "Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier" in THOSE days, just the plain "Father, Son and Holy Ghost"); I = am absolved and blessed with it every Sunday, and, God willing, I will be commended to my Maker with it.   St. Patrick, pray for us!   Cheers,   Bud   Randolph Runyon wrote:   > I take the position, with Erik Routley, that 98% (my estimate, not his) = of > "amens" that hymnals (old ones, for new ones, thank God, have abandoned = the > practice) print are absurd, not to say an abomination unto the Lord. In > his book, _Church Music and the Christian Faith_ (Carol Stream, IL: = Agape, > 1978), Routley rightly points out that spoken amens in the early church > were the people's response to prayers the priest said, especially the = great > prayer at the eucharist. "At any time when one voice says a prayer and = all > voices respond, the simplest and most ancient response is 'amen.' The = use > of the word at the end of a hymn which everybody has sung has therefore, = at > first sight, no justification whatever"--because there is no need to > respond to oneself. "But the custom has an origin whcih has deceived = many > people into considering it a modern necessity. The fact is that all the > ancient Ambrosian hymns end with a trinitarian doxology followed by = 'Amen.' > It is believed that Ambrose himself composed songs for orthodox = Christians > to sing in reply to certain songs invented and sung in a belligerent = spirit > by the unorthodox Arians, who at this time (the later fourth century) = were > in open conflict with the orthodox. It may therefore have been the = custom > for some to sing the hymn, and all within earshot to sing a responsive > 'amen'--'That's what we all believe about the Trinity' (the point = largely > in dispute)." > In light of this, it seems risible to believe today, as some do, > that every time the Trinity is mentioned in a hymn that we must sing = amen > at the end. We should only be doing that, in the true Ambrosian sprit, = if > there are some Arians around whose heresy we wish to counter. Indeed, > perhaps only if those Arians are singing belligerent anti-Trinitarian > hymns. There is, in other words, nothing inherent in the Trinity itself > that demands an Amen. Just something inherent in the 4th-century > controversy about the Trinity between Ambrosians and Arians. > Routley continues: "Ambrosian hymnody, however, very soon > developed in monastic settings rather than controversial ones, and here = we > are on firm ground--their plainsong tunes always included an amen after = the > doxology, which still always stood at the end. It is reasonably certain > that liturgically these office hymns... were sung antiphonally. We = should > not by any means assume that the doxology was sung by all present, but = we > can more safely assume that the amen was." In light of this, it seems > like a good idea to sing the amen after singing the doxology. In my > church, that's about the only time we do it. > Routley, again: "However, the whole nature of hymnody changed = at > the Reformation." [Right! We aren't singing monastic chant most of the > time in, say, Presbyterian churches.] "There was no question of singing > amen at the end of hymns in Luther's time (nor has there ever been such = a > tradition in the German-speaking churches).... In fact, in the English = and > early American system of hymnody, amen is never sung after hymns until the > mid-nineteenth century. Isaac Watts and Charles and John Wesley knew > nothing of it." [I can't help interjecting that Luther, Watts, and the > Wesleys, if they could come back today, might well feel their work had = been > defaced by the hackneyed plagal amens that have been tacked onto their > creations. Kind of like a mustache on the Mona Lisa.] "What brought it > back was the revived interest in medieval hymnody aroused in England by = the > Oxford Movement from 1833 onward, generating a wave of translation from = the > Latin which eventually made the whole Sarum system of Latin hymnody > available in English. The doxologies, with their amens, were included = in > the translations. > "So eager were the Tractarians to make it clear that the = medieval > culture alone was the pure religious culture, and medieval hymnody the > proper norm for all other hymnody, that at a number of points in their > hymnals they appended doxologies with amens to existing hymns. The most > notorious instance was the adding of a spurious doxology to "When I = survey > the wondrous cross," but there were many others. Doxology or no, amen = was > added to every hymn, and since virtually every non-plainsong tune in = that > book ended with a perfect cadence the amens were set uniformly to a = plagal > cadence. This hymnal was the most famous of all hymnals, the 1861 = edition > of _Hymns Ancient and Modern_. > "The custom spread through Anglican hymnals and was imitated by = the > Congregationalists and Presbyterians, and to a limited extent by the > Methodists and the Baptists, for no reason but the obscure and = irrrational > notion that the Church of England knew its work in matters of liturgy. > Around 1920 the Anglicans recognized that adding amens had been an > anachronism and an error, and began to abandon them. Obediently the > nonconformists followed them at about a twenty-year interval, and by = about > 1950 the amen on hymns had virtually disappeared in Engliand, although = it > was retained for some time in Scotland. > "Now consider what a patchwork of misunderstanding and = anachronism > all this is. Singing amen after post-Reformation hymns was unknown = before > about 1850. There is no older precedent for it, it was in any case an > error, and those who initiated it have long repented of it. It is an > excellent example of a custom which people still jealously guard in > America, any criticism of which arouses great indignation, and any = argument > against which is disregarded." (pp. 96-98) > And to that let the people say AMEN! > > Randy Runyon > organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: A-mens From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:15:40 -0700   Well, that depends, Randy ... beginning with The Hymnal 1916 and Canon = Douglas' New Hymnal, the TEXTS of hymns became official Church teaching in the = Episcopal Church, in that they had to be approved by both Houses of General = Convention, both clergy and lay. I'm not personally a fundamentalist about it, but = since we use the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal, I'm content to go with what Canon Douglas (memory eternal!) and others laid down for the use of the Church.   Cheers,   Bud   Randolph Runyon wrote:   > Le Maitre writes: > > "if the composer took > >the time and wrote notes on the page - the least I can do is play = them!" > > Well, that's just it, isn't it? Neither Martin Luther nor Isaac Watts = nor > the Wesley brothers wrote any amens on any of their hymns. So by your > reasoning, which I approve, don't play any amens tacked on by = misinformed > hymnal editors to hymns whose creators never wanted them there in the = first > place. > > Randy Runyon > organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors..... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 00:19:11 EDT   Greetings,   are there any organists/choir directors out there who work = in a Canadian Catholic parish that uses CBW III or Gather? There are a few questions I'd like to ask...and exchange notes.   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:20:00 -0700       Evelyn Rowe wrote:   > At 11:25 PM 9/4/99 -0400, Carlo Pietroniro wrote: > >I noticed that several people have mentioned gregorian chants....are = things > >like: Of the Father's Love Begotten, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ubi = Caritas, > >Pange Lingua, Tantuum Ergo, In Paradisum considered "hymns" or chants? = At my > >church, we don't sing amens at the end of HYMNS.........gregorian = chants are > >different...... > > Not necessarily. When the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) was, and > still is, sung in monastery choirs, the whole service was in chant. The > psalms would be chanted in psalm tones, and the Gospel canticles would = be > sung in somewhat more elaborate versions of the same. There would be > simple chants for versicles and responses. There might be more = elaborate > chants for antiphons on psalms and the Short and Long Responds. There > would also be an Office Hymn, which would vary seasonally; major feasts > would have their own proper hymns. > > "Of the Father's love begotten" and "Pange Lingua" are office hymns. "O > come, O come Emmanuel" is a hymn composed of the Antiphons on the > Magnificat from December 16 to December 23. "Tantum Ergo" is a hymn = used > at Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament -- don't know if it's also an > office hymn for Corpus Christi.   It is ... it's the last two verses of Pange lingua, just as O Salutaris is = the last two verses of Verbum supernum (also an office hymn for Corpus = Christi). To my knowledge, Of The Father's Love Begotten isn't in the Antiphonale, and, = if it ever was, it disappeared a LONG time ago. Of course there are other things = (like Adoro te and Ave verum corpus) that aren't office hymns either.   > "In Paradisum," of course, is sung at the > conclusion of a Requiem as the body is being borne from the church. > > There's another Gregorian hymn format, the Sequence, which would be sung > before the Gospel on feast days. "Lauda Sion" and "Veni Sancte = Spiritus" > are examples.   And they had BOTH an amen and a final alleluia after THAT, except in the = Sarum use, which had either one or the other, or neither ... I forget, and I'm = not disposed to dig around for my book of Sarum sequences (grin).   > > > Hope this helps. Seeing as I'm writing this at midnight on a Saturday > night, I may have erred in some of the details. > > Evie > > mailto:efrowe@mindspring.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Handel composition............ From: Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 23:32:54 -0500   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > Greetings, > > anyone know where I can get my hands (and feet) on a = copy > of the "Marche Grand Choeur" from "Joshua" by G. F. Handel? I know = there's > an organ arrangement out there somewhere. Thanks!   Guilmant arranged several orchestral works by Handel for Organ. Unfortunately, a few years ago, some of my Guilmant Scores were in an = attache case which was stolen, and I have not yet been able to replace these. Therefore my confidence level on this is lower than might otherwise be the case, and Guilmant may not, in fact, have been the arranger of the work = you seek, but is a good first place to look.