PipeChat Digest #1060 - Sunday, September 5, 1999
 
Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns)
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Christmas Song.....
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Baskerville Tuning Company
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Amen on the rock
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Amen on the rock
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Bundles of treble organ pipe
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: A-mens
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors.....
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors.....
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: Baskerville Tuning Company
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Amens on hymns..............
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns)
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns)
  by "Becky Ingram" <rringram@mailbox.syr.edu>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Amen on the rock
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors.....
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Amen on the rock
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: a-mens on hymns
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns) From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 12:58:09 -0700   All that (among MANY other things) is why I got OUT of RC church music and = went back to the Anglican church, after many, MANY years of working for the = RCs.   Cheers,   Bud   Erik Johnson wrote:   > Dear list, > I am between Sunday morning Masses and was reading my mail. I have to = agree > with Maynard - playing a few Amens a Sunday is a small transgression to = pay! > This did make me think of other transgressions which I think deserve > discusion. > > 1. What about Catholic Organists and Pastors only playing 2 verses of a > hymn. What is this? Not only are Pastors sending Catholic Music into = the > trash heap but organists are too! This practice of mearly providing > "travel" music for the Priest makes music seem very unimportant and just > trivial. Here at N.D. I insist (and I might add the Pastor agrees) on > singing all verses of all hymns. (we do make exceptions on the 9 verse = jobs > - but even I get bored with a hymn melody after 7 verses!). What is the > consensus out there amoung other Catholic Organists? > > 2. Recently, our Bishop was going to raise the Wedding/Funeral stipend = rates > from $100/$50 respectivly to $200/$100. Which I thought was long in = coming. > However, two people wrote to our Diocese NewsPaper saying that = organists > got too much money as it is and that the Church should provide > Wedding/Funeral services for free - as a gift to the parishioners. = After > these letter appeared, out Bishop has done nothing about the fee's and = looks > like he will do nothing - wouldn't want to seem un-politcally correct I > guess. > However - the fact still remains: In the Worcester Diocese - ALL = organist > get the same fee's for weddings/funerals. I find this insulting and = unfair. > Alas the Hack down the street from me who plays two pedals (with = sneakers) > and can't even play a Hymn unless someone has written Chord Symbols for = him > - gets payed the SAME as I do. Now when I was playing for the Congo = church > - I could charge the AGO rates for my skill level - why are Catholic > Organists forced to abide by these insulting low rates? Any suggestions = out > there? > > Well time to go back for Mass number 5 this weekend.... > > All the Best, > > The_Maitre > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Christmas Song..... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 16:19:21 EDT   Greetings,   the words for the song I'm looking for are: O what a beautiful city, O what a beautiful city, O what a beautiful city, O my Lord is born in Bethlehem, Hallelu.   Wise men from the east (echo)-->they came to praise him Shepherds from the west (echo)-->they came to worship him Angels sang in the heavens on high The king of kings is born in Bethlehem, Hallelu.   If this looks familiar to anyone, please contact me. Thanks.   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:35:32 -0700   >Just TRY to sing the last stanza of "Built on a Rock" without an Amen. > >Which reminds me of another question. Why isn't it "Built on the Rock"? > >Alan > > Actually, it is "Built on _the_ Rock" in the two hymnals that come to hand here, _The Hymnbook_ for the Presbyterian Church in the United States (1955), and _The Worshipbook_ for the Pres. Ch. in the U.S. (1972). It seems to be disappearing from hymnals, though, as it's in neither the U.C.C. _New Century Hymnal_ nor in the new _Presbyterian Hymnal_ (1990).   Is it on _a_ rock for sure in your hymal?   The amens I've seen for it bring it into the major key. But I guess = that's not why you like an amen on it.   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Re: Baskerville Tuning Company From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:54:26 -0700     >Semper ubi sub ubi. > >Don >   Especially in winter in an underheated church! ;-)   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Re: Amen on the rock From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:19:01 -0400   >From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon)   > Is it on _a_ rock for sure in your hymal?   Yes, Randy, and on predecessor books as well. > > The amens I've seen for it bring it into the major key. But I guess = that's > not why you like an amen on it.   No, I failed to make my rhetorical challenge clear; I don't want to add an Amen to it. The last line of the final stanza, within the meter, is "My peace I leave with you. Amen." So the "Amen" is built into the stanza, = not appended to it.   Odd.   But I'll have to call the Danish Seaman's Mission and get help with the original Gruntvig text to see if he did it that way, and what article (definite or indefinite) he used. If indeed Danish HAS such distinctions.   Curious.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: Amen on the rock From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 18:39:17 -0700   =AB I failed to make my rhetorical challenge clear; I don't want to add an >Amen to it. The last line of the final stanza, within the meter, is "My >peace I leave with you. Amen." So the "Amen" is built into the stanza, no= t >appended to it.   Alan, I'm so sorry I misunderstood your point! The version I consulted didn't have that verse. There is another classic instance of a hymn to which it is absurd to put an amen, though I've seen it done. I can't remember the name of the hymn, but the point is that the last words of the last verse are: "... and sound the great 'Amen'!" > >But I'll have to call the Danish Seaman's Mission and get help with the >original Gruntvig text to see if he did it that way, and what article >(definite or indefinite) he used. If indeed Danish HAS such distinctions.   Now that's a very good idea. Let us know what you find.     Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian, Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Bundles of treble organ pipe From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 17:43:46 -0500   Rick needs to know who has the bundles of small treble pipes for sale. Please, if anyone has that information, email me at = koehnken+AEA-comsys.net. I will relay the info Rick. Rick dutchorgan+AEA-svs.net        
(back) Subject: Re: A-mens From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:02:08 -0400 (EDT)   Le Maitre writes: >=A0=A0"if the composer took the time and wrote > notes on the page - the least I can do is play > them!" Wrandy writes: >Well, that's just it, isn't it? Neither Martin > Luther nor Isaac Watts nor the Wesley > brothers wrote any amens on any of their > hymns. So by your reasoning, which I > approve, don't play any amens tacked on by > misinformed hymnal editors to hymns whose > creators never wanted them there in the first > place. Ah! But you've been caught again. The amen is not an affirmation of the composer or author, but of the people singing the hymn. The editors simply added them to make the hymnals "user friendly", ya know... so new-comers wouldn't be lost!!! ;-)   ....and all God's people said AMEN!!!!   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors..... From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:06:10 -0400 (EDT)   >=A0are there any organists/choir directors out > there who work in a Canadian Catholic parish > that uses CBW III or Gather? A very good question. At the OHS convention in Montreal we visited large RC churches and small RC church and nary a hymnal, songbook, missal, missalette or pew-howdycard was to be found. The Canadian organists didn't even want to play hymns which are always part of our recitals.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors..... From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:20:24 EDT   Bruce and list,   that's very strange indeed. Thank God that's the exception and not the rule. I live here in Montreal and I can honestly say =   that I know of at least 40 parishes that have books, hymnals and whatever else in their pews. I guess you all went to the wrong churches.........   Carlo   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Baskerville Tuning Company From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:26:32 -0400 (EDT)   >Migrating where, Bruce, never-never land? Well..... I was told BY A TUNER (wink, wink, nudge, nudge!!).... that the slides migrate "south" with gravity as the temperature changes the hardness of the metal and the metal of the tuner expands with the heat. Don't tell me I shouldn't believe what my tuner told me!!!!! ;-)   > And how can they migrate if they are that > tight? Some of the ones that are very tight actually pierce the metal when it is soften by the heat. This I've seen.   >Tuning problems are not related to the top of > the pipe, but to the environment. If tuning problems are not related to the top of the pipe, then why are so many of those slider thingys in need of adjustment, a problem which does not occur in such frequency with sliderless pipes?   >One reason that slide tuned pipes SEEM > unstable is that they are often found in organs > which may be partly chambered, partly > exposed, perhaps one division next to an > outside wall, perhaps vertical layering as well. Since facilitating better circulation in our chamber (which is actually not a chamber but the end of the room with a wooden "vertical box" style grille and Magnavox cloth), the tuning has become much more stable and the three divisions on two levels inside the screen, and one division on the second level outside the screen are, more often than not, together.   >Secondly, tuners are reluctant to retune > slideless pipes at seasonal changes or at the > organist's whim. So, much less chance for the > organ to get whoozy through quick, > incomplete touch-ups at different > temperatures. Seems most times tuners are willing to tune any time they have the time, and our tuner seems to favor the quick, incomplete touch-ups.   >If you want stable tuning, both within and > between divisions, place the chests at the > same height. Well dang! I'l just run down and do that tomorrow afternoon!!! Isn't that more in the realm of the organ builder than the organist. You seem quite ready to dump all of these problems in the organist's lap.   > Forbid forced air heating. By golly I can't wait to pull THAT on the Administrative Board!!!   >Have the organ tuned at exactly the same > temperature each time. My preference, and contrary to our tuner's advice is to avoid Christmas and Easter tunings in the South where both holidays fall in the "nutty" weather months. The best tunings, according to yet another tuner who has been proven correct by experience, are the ones done on balmy Spring or Autumn days when the temperature outside is in the upper 60's and the room does not have to be air-conditioned. I have had this done twice and both times the tuning was rock stable during winter and summer in spite of AC and heating changes.   >Avoid generalizations. ooooh! Good advice (wink wink, nudge nudge!)     Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Amens on hymns.............. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:28:40 -0400 (EDT)     >Possibly because the anti-papists of the time > considered THE rock to be Peter and/or the > pope. Now why on earth would anti-papists consider THAT? Seems they'd know better and it wouldn't make any difference. ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns) From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:46:23 -0400 (EDT)     >1. What about Catholic Organists and Pastors > only playing 2 verses of a hymn. Seems that there is still a mindset among many RC priests that music is simply to entertain people while THEY are busy or in transit. I worked for one RC priest who, at the end of each stanza, would turn around an look at me as if to say, "Stop dammit! I'm here!" (Well, of course I very politely... um, er, uh.... ignored him! ;-) I have been told by priests that the entrance hymn is for the "entrance"of the priest who is "Lord for an hour", that the presentation hymn is to last no longer than it takes for the gifts to get from the West to the East end and even to stop mid-verse (!), the communion hymn MUST last throughout the communion 'procession' even if it must be sung three or four times, and the going forth hymn should last only until HE has go forth. Any wonder RC's don't take hymn-singing seriously.   >we do make exceptions on the 9 verse jobs >- but even I get bored with a hymn melody >after 7 verses!). Isn't it interesting that a denomination which shuns more than two stanzas of a hymn is pushing "songs" with eight to nine verses AND refrains before, throughout and after. Go figure!   >2. Recently, our Bishop was going to raise the > Wedding/Funeral stipend rates from $100/$50 > respectivly to $200/$100. One of the big problems in RC-land is that bishops have too much power and not enough knowledge (not to mention sense!)..... with all due respect to their holinessessesses! (smirk) They are very well paid and cared-for, as are the clergy, so why should they worry about anyone else. They get to do "their" thing at mass regardless of what else is available music or congregation wise, so why should they give a hoot. Besides, they have to do four or five masses on the weekend and maybe one or two a day during the week, they're tired and want to get out of there. Doesn't occur to them that the organist often plays many of those masses as well. RCs have been pushed around by their clergy and hierarchy for far too long (which accounts for many abuses to parishoners) and the clergy are beginning to feel resistance and are therefore pushing a little harder to maintain control. They need to ordain women so that they can at least have someone on their own level to fight with!! hehehehe   >Any suggestions out there? um... a position in a non-RC church???     Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns) From: Becky Ingram <rringram@mailbox.syr.edu> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:47:22 -0400 (EDT)   > trivial. Here at N.D. I insist (and I might add the Pastor agrees) on > singing all verses of all hymns. (we do make exceptions on the 9 verse = jobs > - but even I get bored with a hymn melody after 7 verses!). What is the =   > consensus out there amoung other Catholic Organists?   I was raised Episcopalian (meaning we sang ALL the verses). When I had my Catholic Church with the little Lane, I worked very closely with my cantor to make sure that we sang all the verses. I told him that I was not going to be background music. Fortunately, Steve was also a musician, so that got through to Fr. LaBrie. We even added extra verses to some hymns!   > However, two people wrote to our Diocese NewsPaper saying that = organists > got too much money as it is and that the Church should provide > Wedding/Funeral services for free - as a gift to the parishioners. = After   I have two words for them: :P   I get too much money as it is?! Wait a second, if that's so then why do I not have money for next week's rent? Granted I have a very small parish, but we have to take time out of our busy schedules and often times work and classes to accomodate our parish. And that doesn't merit getting paid? What if we asked our parishoners to take a day off? What would they say?   > - I could charge the AGO rates for my skill level - why are Catholic > Organists forced to abide by these insulting low rates? Any suggestions = out > there?   In my experience with the Catholic church, music means absolutely SQUAT in the liturgical realm. As you said before, it -is- pretty much traveling music. At St. Louis, I always felt that I was rated even below the Catholics that came in once every week and left halfway through the sermon. My entire weekend was ruined because of that job, and somehow I was still a complete nill. (Of course this -could- have something to do with the fact that I was only 15 when I got this job, but still!) And no one new I was a Protestant. I even took communion! (Sssh, don't tell!) Overall, I hope I never have to play for another Catholic church. I have a pick of a lot of jobs around here, but I'm sticking with my Episcopalians.   -Rebekah Just my .02    
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:59:14 -0700   Bruce writes:   >I have recently started a new church position (Methodist) and one of the >request made was that I include "amen" on the end of hymns.   --You have my deepest sympathy.   I do not >use them all the time, omitting them from carols and gospel hymns.   --I can see omitting them from carols, but why gospel hymns? I mean, don't you think gospel hymns are something folks want to say amen to?   My >general rule is that if the text of the hymn is one to which "so be it" >would be appropriately added, then I include the amen.   -----But is it good to keep people wondering as they sing a hymn, is this one going to be an amen-er or not? My experience has been, because I've tried this (in a previous life), that on those hymns you decide are not appropriately followed by an amen and you don't play the durn plagal candence, some poor soul sings it anyway, and feels mightily embarrassed. > >The "rule" I was taught when this unfortunate change was made was the >since a hymn is a corporate act, an amen (or group affirmation) is >inappropriate. Then, if this IS the case, amen should be also omitted >from the creed, the Lord's prayer and all other corporate prayers. >Other say it is only appropriate after a prayer or doxology. "So be >it" is appropriate after anything we wish to affirm.   -----Yeah, but if we start saying "so be it" or "amen" after everything that's worth affirming in Sunday service we are going to cheapen its effect. Pretty much everything, from scripture to offertory sentences, is worth, shall we say, an _unspoken_ "so be it". So why not just think it? > >It's only a plagal cadence, so if it's not written and they want it, >play it! You'll probably make many friends that way, and damn the >pharises!   -----Well, yes. There's no sense making enemies. There's no point in an organist or music director fighting the amen battle in a church. He or she will just make some people mad. It's a battle that should be waged by the minister. Ministers are paid to do that, to exercise leadership.   =ABAh! But you've been caught again. The amen is not an affirmation of the composer or author, but of the people singing the hymn. The editors simply added them to make the hymnals "user friendly", ya know... so new-comers wouldn't be lost!!! ;-)=BB   -----"user friendly" as in "dumbing down", perhaps? We have it on good authority (Routley and at least one listserv member from across the pond who posted on this) that amens have pretty much disappeared from the British Isles. It's only we dumb Americans who are still doing it. I really think it has to do with the peculiarly American penchant for magic potions, diet breakthroughs, easy ways to solve problems, $19.95 exercise machines advertised on late-night television to instantly tighten up that sagging stomach. The American amen (let's call it by its name!) is a magic formula, a base we must touch to ensure we go to heaven. It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that. . . amen. Perhaps, too, a neurotic desire for closure.   Pharisitically yours, Wrandy Wrunyon      
(back) Subject: Re: Amen on the rock From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 19:57:56 -0400 (EDT)     >There is another classic instance of a hymn to > which it is absurd to put an amen, though I've > seen it done. I can't remember the name of > the hymn, but the point is that the last words > of the last verse are: "... and sound the great > 'Amen'!" There there is "Jesus shall reign where e're the sun...." The final stanza concludes: "and earth repeat the loud amen."   So, dang it! REPEAT IT!!! ;-) (do as you's tolt)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Canadian Roman Catholic music directors..... From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:01:07 -0400 (EDT)   Carlo saith: =A0=A0 > I know of at least 40 parishes that have > books, hymnals and whatever else in their > pews. I guess you all went to the wrong > churches......... Eeek! Is there realy a "wrong" church??? hehe Perhaps they just cleaned up so we wouldn't think they were slobs... or else (gasp) they thought we'd snitch 'em. Organists take hymnals??? the very idea! ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: Amen on the rock From: runyonr@muohio.edu (Randolph Runyon) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:10:08 -0700   >>There is another classic instance of a hymn to >> which it is absurd to put an amen, though I've >> seen it done. I can't remember the name of >> the hymn, but the point is that the last words >> of the last verse are: "... and sound the great >> 'Amen'!" >There there is "Jesus shall reign where e're the sun...." The final >stanza concludes: "and earth repeat the loud amen." > >So, dang it! REPEAT IT!!! ;-) (do as you's tolt) > >Bruce & the Baskerbeagles > That's the very one I was trying to remember. Thank you, Bruce!     Randy Runyon runyonr@muohio.edu   Professor of French, Miami University (Oxford, OH)      
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:13:22 -0700       Randolph Runyon wrote:   > Bruce writes: > > >I have recently started a new church position (Methodist) and one of = the > >request made was that I include "amen" on the end of hymns. > > --You have my deepest sympathy.   RE: the Methodists, or RE: the amens? Twisted curious minds wanna know = (evil grin).   Actually, folks, this battle has been going on for a LONG time. I LOVE = reading the advice columns in all those old Lorenz choir mags that I collected. = Things ain't changed much since the turn of the last century, believe me. = Recurring topics are:   Should we pay the organist and choir director? Should we pay section leaders?   and   TA-DA!   When should we sing "amen"?   Of course, back then, another HOT topic was robed choirs and divided = chancels in protestant churches.   Organ advice (stoplists, placement, etc.) was conservative, but basically sound. And yes, they were fighting the carpet and chancel-dossal-curtain-behind-the-choir battle back then too. One church = wanted to put the dossal curtain in front of the organ pipes because they looked = like "plumbing".   It DOES get kinda interesting right after the Hammond organ first came on = the market ... but how different is that from the pipe/digital battle that = erupts in these pages from time to time?   I DO have to say, from reading these and old Etude and other magazines, = that there DID seem to be MORE paid choirs and full-time positions in city = churches than there are now, and the level of interest in pipe organs was MUCH = higher. Ten THOUSAND people came to see the first big organ at Trinity, Wall = Street in NYC the first WEEK it was finished.   Cheers,   Bud