PipeChat Digest #1068 - Wednesday, September 8, 1999
 
Re: Divisional setup (was Re: Hymn Registration Alternation)
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
amens and grape juice
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Widor Toccata with a difference
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: Hymn Registration Alternation
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: amens and grape juice
  by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net>
Re: Widor Toccata with a difference
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@MediaOne.net>
"Elegy" by Thalben-Ball
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Anglican hymnals in use in England (X-posted)
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
"New" Widor's Tocatta
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@intsvc.com>
Re: Hymn Registration Alternation
  by <geriskip@juno.com>
Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns)
  by <music@telenet.net>
Amen's on Hymns
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Divisional setup (was Re: Hymn Registration Alternation) From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 11:57:07 -0700   Agreed, but of course I was speaking of the half-way mythical GOOD organ = (Hook, Johnson, the Skinners, Kilgen, Kimball, and, across the pond, Willis, = Hill, Norman & Beard, older Harrisons, etc.) where the mixtures don't part your = hair half-way down the nave, but rather do what Audsley said they're intended = to do: reinforce the harmonics, un-muddify the bass, and impart "gravitas" to the trebles.   Cheers,   Bud   Robert Horton wrote:   > >Sounds very similar to mine: > > Bud, > > No arguments here, except for the following minor point > > GREAT (divisional setup) > ... > >4 - Full Great to Mixture(s) > >5 - Full Great to Reeds > > I've always found it more successful to bring the mixtures on = after > the reeds. Most North American mixtures sound like a stuck pig, but > without any of the subtle refinement and delicacy one finds at a hog > slaughter. Better to bring on the reeds first IMHO...I believe this is = how > German Romantics (and by extension, the American Romantics) handled it = as > well. > > Of course, all this seems to be a moot point nowadays. Organ > students everywhere are addicted to a glut of generals, memory levels, = and > sequencers. I feel like an endangered species...one of the last > "divisional holdouts". At any rate, chaqu'un a son gout. > > Rob in Kansas > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: amens and grape juice From: Randolph Runyon <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:15:55 -0400   >I too have all my life (when I was playing) played in RC churches and the >Ay-mens were not included EXCEPT at the end of a doxology. That may be = where >Routley gets his idea from.   ----Actually, Routley got his idea from studying the history of hymns, on which he's written quite a lot, and not from having gone to RC churches where the amens were only sung after a doxology.   I think the addition of ah-mens to hymns in many >denominations were just added as a coda to the piece. It was the "thank = God >it's over after 10 verses" we are through, coda.   ----I think you're quite right to suspect that it is often more for a = sense of closure than for a sense of affirmation that amens are added. Western music is afflicted, or blessed, depending on one's outlook, with a considerable need for closure. Why else do we always return to the tonic and in most cases to "do"? Think of those Beethoven symphonies that conclude with such an obsessive repetition of the tonic, as if he were nailing down a coffin.   I tend to doubt that many >composers actually added the Ah- or Ay-mens but that compilers of hymnals >did so. But I have no proof of this. >Robert Colasacco ----Routley does have proof. He's studied the hymnals of the past and knows when amens started appearing. And he knows, as do hymnologists generally, that Luther, Watts, and the Wesleys never appended amens to the hymns they wrote.   It is interesting to note that adding amens to hymns in America occurred = at the same time as the switch in Protestant churches from wine to grape juice. And was just as authentic.   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian Cincinnati, Ohio      
(back) Subject: Re: Widor Toccata with a difference From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:52:18 -0500   As to the Widor link you gave...   I love the part in the description about ". . .the sophistocated chord schemes. . ."   That's the first time I've ever heard the harmony in that tired piece referred to as "sophistocated."   Cheers! Mark    
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration Alternation From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:54:57 -0400 (EDT)     >would you care to elaborate on the method > you speak of here?? The system has been pretty well covered in other posts, although there were a few unique touches that William Barnard used. One such change was with the Swell reeds, which were without foundations and with a low mixture (there was a Grave Mixture III-IV and an Acute II or III on the Swell). He felt that the swell foundations were not necessary since there were already sufficient foundations already on in other divisions. For some reason the flues seem to tame the reeds and, therefore, without them there seemed to be extra snarl. He also would bring on the Swell mixture before the Great and Positive mixtures. He also would leave the reeds on and retire everything above 4' with the result that the reed snarl was accentuated and slightly darkened, with a resulting richness that was striking. William Barnard was one of the finest service players I've ever heard. The added advantage of his piston formula was that many pieces of literature could be played using these foundational approaches.     Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: amens and grape juice From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:53:12 -0400   You know, some of us don't get along too well with wine, and it can react disastrously with certain medicines. Diane S. (straight@infoblvd.net)    
(back) Subject: Re: Widor Toccata with a difference From: Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@MediaOne.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 20:14:49 -0400   It sounded good. ....But wouldn't it REALLY sound GREAT on a pipe organ?   Stan ;)     Mark Hopper wrote: > > As to the Widor link you gave... > > I love the part in the description about ". . .the sophistocated chord > schemes. . ." > > That's the first time I've ever heard the harmony in that tired piece > referred to as "sophistocated." > > Cheers! > Mark > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: "Elegy" by Thalben-Ball From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:16:10 -0700   GBOrgan tells me it's out of print ... anyone have a copy?   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Anglican hymnals in use in England (X-posted) From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 18:07:03 -0700   Just curious, those of you in the U.K. -- I've been told that the breakdown is:   high churches - English Hymnal, Songs of Sion collegiate churches - English Hymnal, Songs of Sion most churches - A & M or A & M Revised evangelical churches - Songs of Praise   Or has Songs of Sion disappeared from the mix in more recent times?   Is this accurate? Are there any others I should know about? What (offhand) would you say the percentages of each are? Are "Knott's Catholic Hymnal" and/or the "Westminster Hymnal" (both RC, I believe) still available?   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: "New" Widor's Tocatta From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@intsvc.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:44:24 -0700   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_002C_01BEF961.01349600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Well, I had to try it out, so I spent many, many minutes and downloaded = =3D that .mp3 file of Widor's tocatta from that Dutch site. I must admit, =3D it certainly was different. I found it to be very tedious with that =3D strong bass line and added drum kit. None of the excitement that I feel = =3D when I hear a good organ rendition.   Just not my cup of tea. Now, I have to put a CD with a real version of = =3D it. But thanks for the lead to that web site. Perhaps the other things = =3D will be more to my tastes.   Dennis Goward     ------=3D_NextPart_000_002C_01BEF961.01349600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Well, I had to try it out, so I spent = =3D many, many=3D20 minutes and downloaded that .mp3 file of Widor's tocatta from that Dutch = =3D   site.&nbsp; I must admit, it certainly was different.&nbsp; I found it =3D to be=3D20 very tedious with that strong bass line and added drum kit.&nbsp; None =3D of the=3D20 excitement that I feel when I hear a good organ rendition.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Just not my cup of tea.&nbsp; Now, I = =3D have to put a=3D20 CD with a real version of it.&nbsp; But thanks for the lead to that = web=3D20 site.&nbsp; Perhaps the other things will be more to my =3D tastes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dennis Goward</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_002C_01BEF961.01349600--    
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration Alternation From: geriskip@juno.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:55:47 -0400   Please do.   May your day begin and end with a smile.   Geri  
(back) Subject: Re: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns) From: music@telenet.net Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:40:22 -0700   Subject: Some real issues (was Amens on Hymns) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:04:40 EDT From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> To: pipechat@pipechat.org       Erik Johnson wrote:   > > > 1. What about Catholic Organists and Pastors only playing 2 verses of a > hymn. What is this? Not only are Pastors sending Catholic Music into = the > trash heap but organists are too!   Well Eric, not all RC organists play only 2 verses of a hymn. I have a = policy, Vigil masses get 3 verses ,depending on attendance (if it's a large crowed 4), Sunday = Masses get ALL the verses(up to 5) Which I think is sufficient since we sing sung = Responsorials , offertory and all the Mass parts, cantors and choirs do communion,... and also keep in mind, we are not just there to do a "sing-a-thon" ,there = are other things going on at mass that are a little more important than just singing.. = Also in my opinion, no one can send our music into the "trash heap" more than Vatican = II did! Most pastors I know don't get involved in music at all...Thats why they = pay a music a director. You need to come to an understanding with your pastor like I have.......I don't tell him how to deliver his homily and he doesn't tell me how to run the music program..It works out great.   > > - 2. Recently, our Bishop was going to raise the Wedding/Funeral stipend = rates > > from $100/$50 respectivly to $200/$100. Which I thought was long in = coming.   I 'm not familiar with Worcester Diocese, but in NY, it's usually up to = the pastor/ administrator to determine salary, weddings and funerals with a little = help from the music director(of course!) I my self receive 250.00 per wedding and 75.00 = per funeral. we have a large combined parish and average 3 to 4 funerals per week, so = 75.00 is fine with me. If I need to rehearse with a cantor not on parish staff for weddings = or funerals, there is a charge of 50.00 per hr., also if the family would like a friend = or family member to play at either funeral or wedding, they still must pay me my = fee..and that was suggested by my pastor, which I thought was mighty nice of him!   > > 3.Organists forced to abide by these insulting low rates? Any = suggestions out   > there?   We are not forced to abide by or to do anything, if you feel you are not = being compensated enough for your talent all you need to do is start looking for a parish = that IS ABLE to pay you what you feel you deserve and can appreciate a good strong music = program. If you were working at some other job outside of music, and were not satisfied with your = salary or working conditions, Would you stay there or would you start looking some where = else? It's no different with the church.   > I have been playing in RC church's for almost 40 years, and one thing I = found > out, It's no   different than any other job. One can't compare working at "Golden Arches" = to working for the state. In the same token, you can't compare all RC music positions = to some that are low paying. A lot depends on the size of the parish and the financial situation. I found a position 12 years ago and I'm still here..and very = happy....because I have a paid pension plan, blue cross/eye/pharm. paid for..... 6 weeks paid vacation. and a 4% cost = of living automatic salary increase every year, but most of all, I have an agreement with my pastor..We never interfere with each other's jobs, and it really works out well.   All I can say is, if your not happy or satisfied with where you are and = with what your doing, go out and look, don't judge ALL RC church's and pastors because of some = that might not be able to pay top dollar. There are a lot of RC churches that are willing to pay = the price for a good music program and a good organist..     Pax et bonum Bill Ossenfort Ch.of St.Michael/OLMC       > > ll time to go back for Mass number 5 this weekend.... > > All the Best, > > The_Maitre > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Amen's on Hymns From: Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:00:51 -0500   My curiosity having gotten the better of me, I made a briefly surveyed the hymns in "The Revivalist / Revised and Enlarged", (Albany, NY 1872). Although, there may have been a couple of texts I missed, the follwoing text is the only one that ends with an "Amen", "Amen", and that is within the poetry--was not tacked on:   Verse 1   Our Father in heaven, We hallow thy name, May thy kingdom holy on earth be the same; Oh, give to us daily our portion of bread; It is from thy bounty that all must be fed;   Verse 2   Forgive our transgressions, and teach us to know That humble compassion that pardons each foe; Keep us from temptation, from weakness and sin; And thine be the glory Forever, Amen!   Incidently, this text is set to a tune named "Portugese Hymn", known in more contemporary hymnals as       "Adeste Fideles" <grin>