PipeChat Digest #1070 - Thursday, September 9, 1999
 
The "Mighty" Holtkamp: Florida State's Concert Organ Stoplist
  by "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Re: a-mens on hymns and unversed Catholics
  by "Stanley E Yoder" <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Re: shrine kilgen
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
National Shrine Kilgen (Re: Kilgen Relays et al)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: National Shrine Kilgen (Re: Kilgen Relays et al)
  by <DrCorgcomp@aol.com>
Re: shrine kilgen
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: shrine kilgen
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: divided chancel controversy
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: amens and grape juice
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Josef Cardinal Ratzinger
  by <JDeCaria@aol.com>
Re: Shrine Kilgen Console
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Hymn Registration Alternation
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
amens on hymns
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
wind pressure (sort of)
  by <Icorgan@aol.com>
Re: priestly egos
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: priestly egos
  by "Bud/Burgie" <budchris@earthlink.net>
 


(back) Subject: The "Mighty" Holtkamp: Florida State's Concert Organ Stoplist From: Will Scarboro <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:35:10 -0400     I've gotten a couple of requests for the stoplist of the Holtkamp here at =   Florida State; therefore, I have posted the stoplist below. For the most part it is accurate however I'm going by memory.   Florida State University - School of Music Opperman Music Hall 1975 Holtkamp   Key Action : Mechanical Stop Action : Electric   Great - Manual II   Quintadena 16' Principal 8' Gedeckt 8' Octave 4' Spitzflote 4' Super Octave 2' Mixture Trumpet 8'   Positiv - Manual I   Copula 8' Prestant 4' Rohrflote 4' Nazard 2 2/3' Blockflote 2' Tierce 1 3/5' Mixture Krummhorn 8' Tremolo   Swell Organ - Manual III Enclosed   Rohrflote 8' Gamba 8' Voix Celeste 8' (to low F) Principal 4' Bourdon 4' Gemshorn 2' Cymbale (Disconnected) Dulzian 16' Fagott 8' Tremolo   Pedal   Principal 16' Subbass 16' Octave 8' Pommer 8' Choral Bass 4' Raushquint Posaune 16' Trumpet 8' Schalemey 4'   Couplers   GT - PD SW - PD POS - PD SW - GT POS - GT SW - POS   Mechanical Swell Pedal Crescendo Pedal SFZ button   ONE LEVEL of memory   There you have it! I think there may be a 1 1/3 in there somewhere but I can't remember. Today I had my lesson on it. They're getting ready for a ballet performance next week and there's a big screen over the organ which =   leaves only a three foot gap between it and the front of the organ. Needless to say, its quite LOUD! BTW this organ replaced a 1924 Skinner.   Sincerely,   Will Scarboro   Will Scarboro, Organ Historian American Municipal Pipe Organ Research Project 1996 OHS E. Power Biggs Fellow Student - Florida State University School of Music Home of the Mighty Holtkamp    
(back) Subject: Re: a-mens on hymns and unversed Catholics From: Stanley E Yoder <syoder+@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:46:27 -0400 (EDT)   Excerpts from mail: 8-Sep-99 Re: a-mens on hymns and unv.. by Randolph Runyon@muohio.e > A nice variation. Now that I think on it, rice fields are found in wet > climates (like Vietnam) and camels in dry (like the Sahara).   That contradiction reminds me of Reginald Heber's baptismal hymn that begins, "By cool Siloam's shady rill". Someone has remarked that that line condenses a maximum of misstatement into a minimum of space, in that biblical Siloam lacked cool, shade, and rills.     Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re: shrine kilgen From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:01:42 EDT   In a message dated 9/8/99 1:22:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, texx@crl.com writes:   << I take exception to this falsehood. SOme time ago I thought I made the point, (sigh) I guess Ill have to do it again. The Kilgen was NOT restored to "original" ! Its electrical system has been heavily modernized. The original relay scrapped in place, a computer. Dont say its restored to original when its not ! While I gather the original relay was a "dog", and i dont know if anyone really TRIED to make it work right, the fact is that thing has been = MODERIZED C'mon guys, tell the TRUTH OK ? >>   OK esteemed colleagues, then please allow me to try and rephrase:   The Grande Kilgen in the National Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal = Oak, Michigan has undergone a four year process which has brought it back into total playability after being long silent. Part of the process was the retrofitting of the instrument with a double solid state relay and combination action (IE: the two twin consoles and separate "instruments:" main and antiphonal.) The reason for the solid state addition is because = the original electro-mechanical relays and parts were inoperable, many parts = were either terminally broken or missing and we could not get parts for them. = I also wish to add that that decision was made and executed long before I = ever arrived at the church in July of 1998.   Regarding the tonal regulation of the instrument, with the exception of = three ranks of upperwork the regulation is that of Henry Vincent Willis. Those three ranks are going to be examined and matched back to their original = tonal concept by Brant Duddy in the very near future.   Regarding originality: we didn't do anything outlandish or unreasonable to =   alter or make the instrument something it is not. We did expand the toe studs on the left to accommodate all 12 generals instead of just 10 and we =   moved the console controls (Alternator, Antiphonal On, Harp Damp, Chime = Damp, All Swells) from toe studs on the right to pistons under the Solo manual = on the far right side. I hardly call that compromising the integrity of the instrument. In fact we did keep all original controls. There was talk of =   omitting those unique controls and that did not happen. Would not any concert organist expect general toe studs on the left and pedal = divisionals on the right? We merely moved physically some controls that were next to impossible to operate in the first place due to Kilgen's rather compact = toe stud configuration. After all- the consoles were built before the "new" = AGO standards (in 1933) were solidly in effect. I dare say that if one stood = and looked at the consoles now they are so close to what they looked like in = 1933 that someone would really have to dissect with a fine toothed comb.   The other "alteration" was the moving of the Kilgen nameplate from being partially blocked up and underneath the left side of the music rack to the =   backrail- front and center- right above the Solo manual. This, in fact, = was done at the specific request of Mrs. Alice Kilgen-Fiedler, daughter of Charles Kilgen, one of the "sons," and granddaughter of George Kilgen.   Now, I hardly say that we bastardized the instrument- but rather took it = as it was and brought it into the new millennium with modern technology- = that's all.   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: National Shrine Kilgen (Re: Kilgen Relays et al) From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:03:11 EDT   In a message dated 9/8/99 7:32:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wmbaker@crocker.com writes:   << The Kilgen relay, like the real early Hope-Jones, consists of their standard crank-and- slider key contact assembly operated remotely. Crank-and- slider stuff (a) tends to break (its own) fingers and (b) the wiring is "potted" in place. This is "one-time" equipment. Ditto much of what's in the console. Sheet brass springs will break and without the original tools and dies would not be practical to reproduce. >>   Thank you Mr. baker, you just hit the nail on the head.   Scott Foppiano  
(back) Subject: Re: National Shrine Kilgen (Re: Kilgen Relays et al) From: DrCorgcomp@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:27:42 EDT   With the admission that I have never heard the Little Flower Kilgen (unfortunately), the work that Scott describes seems to me eminently = logical, practical and well-considered. It sounds like the instrument is being given a new lease on life while respecting (deeply, it seems to me) its genesis and place in American organ heritage. =   Would that many other organs which have been "restored" had been so = lovingly treated. = Charles Callahan  
(back) Subject: Re: shrine kilgen From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:40:14 -0700   At 09:01 PM 9/8/1999 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/8/99 1:22:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, texx@crl.com=20 >writes: > ><< I take exception to this falsehood.<much snippage> =20 > Its electrical system has been heavily modernized. > The original relay scrapped in place, a computer.<snip> >=20 > While I gather the original relay was a "dog", and i dont know if anyone > really TRIED to make it work right, the fact is that thing has been MODERIZED<snip>   As IF anyone would WANT to keep original Kilgen relays! They were dogs of the most dubious pedigree, and Scott & Co.'s decision to replace both them and the megasized expression engines were both solid decisions and wise investments. I'm quite sure most any organ servicer and/or builder (and player, for that matter!) who has experience with Kilgens would agree wholeheartedly. What COUNTS is the SOUND...not some technologically obsolete failure of electrical equipment that is bound to cause further trouble in the near future. Kilgen relays were as slow as they came, and questionably reliable at best!   Just my 2=A2 worth on a hot summer's day in da desert...   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: shrine kilgen From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:46:17 -0500   >At 09:01 PM 9/8/1999 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/8/99 1:22:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = texx@crl.com > >writes: > > > ><< I take exception to this falsehood.<much snippage> > > > Its electrical system has been heavily modernized. > > The original relay scrapped in place, a computer.<snip> > > > > While I gather the original relay was a "dog", and i dont know if = anyone > > really TRIED to make it work right, the fact is that thing has been >MODERIZED<snip>   If this was an instrument that was in a Museum, maybe it would be more "Historically correct" to keep the old relay, etc. BUT since this is an instrument that is in a church, and from what I gather a church that uses it quite a lot, then it is foolish to keep some outdated equipment such as the old Kilgen relay for the purposes of keeping everything original. From what I gather there are several different organists that play it on a regular basis. At least with this new system they can each have their own set of combinations.   And really what matters here? the mechanical end or the tonal end? As Scott has said the TONAL side of the instrument is original or very close to it except for a couple of ranks that have been tampered with. Isn't this what an instrument is all about?   David    
(back) Subject: Re: divided chancel controversy From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:33:15 -0400 (EDT)   Thanks, Alan, um, er, I think. --Neil   >>Neil, I can't remember when you haven't made good sense. Alan<<    
(back) Subject: Re: amens and grape juice From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:43:31 -0400 (EDT)   Um, grape juice is a Methodist invention.   --Neil    
(back) Subject: Josef Cardinal Ratzinger From: JDeCaria@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:47:29 EDT   In my previous discourse on roman clergy, I failed to address Bud's criticism of Cardinal Ratzinger. Cardinal Ratzing is one of the foremost advocates of musical excellence in the Roman Catholic Church.   Cardinal Ratzinger has, through the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, enabled the music community, and given musicians in the Roman = Church the backing of his authirity as they pursue traditional musical ventures. most Specifically, he has really encouraged the use of Gregorian Chant, = and has been a vocal proponent of the pipe organ as the proper instrument for = use in the liturgy.   He has a reputation as an "inquisitor", but that is what he is. His job as =   Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of The Faith is to guard the treasure of faith as left by Jesus Christ and revealed through the Saints = tby the Holy Spirit. The Church needs someone to reign in and balance the = liberal Catholics; someone to correct, and if necessary, intervene in those situations where the True faith is the local community is jepordized by radical extremists at either end - liberal or conservative. Cardinal Ratzinger is not just an opponent of liberalism and modernism - he is = just as opposed to extreme conservativism and exclusivism. He once = excommunicated a Catholic Priest for refusing to retract a statement that "there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church." This is his job as the = Prefect of this Congregation. To guard the True Faith from perversion of ANY kind. =     Whether he is elected Supreme Pontiff or not is up to the action of the = Holy Spirit during a Sacred Conclave after the death of John Paul II.   Let us not judge the man for performing his duties, lest we be judged for putting as much effort as he into performing ours. I remain,   your unworthy servant, Joseph DeCaria.   P.S. here's a great joke about Cardinal Ratzinger: Karl Rahner, Hans Kung and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger all die on the same = day, and go to meet St. Peter to know their fate.   St. Peter approaches the three of them, and tells them that he will = interview each of them to discuss their views on various issues.   He then points at Rahner and says "Karl! In my office..." After 4 hours, = the door opens, and Rahner comes stumbling out of St. Peter's office. He is highly distraught, and is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the = hardest thing I've ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of our God. =     St. Peter follows him out, and sticks his finger in Kung's direction and "Hans! You're next..." After 8 hours, the door opens, and Kung comes out, barely able to stand. He is near collapse with weakness and a crushed = spirit. He , too, is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the hardest thing I've =   ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of Our God.   Lastly, St. Peter, emerging from his office, says to Cardinal Ratzinger, "Joseph, your turn." TWELVE HOURS LATER, St. Peter stumbles out the door, =   apparently exhausted, saying "Oh God, that's the hardest thing I've ever done..."  
(back) Subject: Re: Shrine Kilgen Console From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 23:47:52 EDT   Greetings,   After having read the responses so far on the Shrines Kilgen Console(s), I =   feel the need to throw in my dollar fifty's worth!   Hurrah for Scott and the others who made the decisions they did! This is what I have been saying for years and years - it is the SOUND of the organ =   that should be preserved. I am all against the removal of pipework and rampant tonal revisions.   However, the first and for-most function of a church organ is that, to function and function as the church and musician need it to. In these = days of high quality SSL devices - why not have a full compliment of generals = and divisional pistons. We musk ask - if E.M. or G.D.H. were alive today and = had the SSL systems we have at our disposal - would they not use them? Large combo. systems in organs were of course possible, (if one had a room or = two to store them in!). I think, indeed, they would have jumped at the opportunities of SSL!   Even tonal additions, (in the syle and character of the existing organ) should be fine. This type of enhancement should be encouraged rather than =   blatant disregaurd for what the instrument is.   My comment to why so many organists and builders use the word = "RESTORATION" is because that's the word most organ historians want to hear! They = shreik like a Phelps Mixture when they hears the words Moderization, Enhancement, =   Solid State, Additions... etc.. And one would agree, after encountering a shreiking Phelps Mixture once - usually the desire to go back and fight = with it again is tempered to say the least! I have seen these people praise "Museum Quality Restorations" done to the hilt - and the same organ be-wailed by the resident organist saying, "Why? Why did they have to do this? 74 drawknobs and 3 generals!" This is foolish!"   If we are going to praise builders such as Skinner, G.D.Harrison, Cavaille =   Coll, Willis, and the many other "Reveared" names all whom have REBUILT, (often throwing out heaps of pipework and retain some), then equal praise must go to the modern builders and organists who are rebuilding and enhancing organs in keeping with the historical nature and heritage!   All the Best,   The Maitre   p.s. Preparing the asbetos suit as I speak!   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration Alternation From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:53:29 -0400 (EDT)   > Just ask Brewse Cornely, who one day > alerted the congregants a chapel with the > "BOOM bada BOOM bada TIZZ TIZZ" on his > Bawldwin "Fun Machine"! >hehehehehe! Geez, DesserTBoB , Hast thee none shamefulness???   Glad to say I now have a Mollerette in my chapel.   By the way, have you seen the TV commercial for (something) where the professor stands up in front of the class and says, "Today we're going to talk about....   MOLLERS!!!!!"   yeeeeeeehehehehehehehe   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: amens on hymns From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:09:55 -0400 (EDT)   >We did a very contempory anthem in jazz style > (that I wrote.. blush blush) WrandyWritted: >Are you going to publish....? Eventually, Crazy story here!! The anthem in question "You've Got To Keep Your Eyes on the Lord" is a narrative of Peter walking to Jesus on the water. It is part of a musical, "Come to the Fountain", that I wrote for the choir of Aldersgate UMC - Slidell LA, to sing at the 1984 World's Fair in New Orleans LA. The fair theme was "Great Rivers of the World" so I selected several texts from Scripture that dealt with water, such as the woman at the well, Peter in the sea, etc. The musical was in manuscript form (hand copied) and xeroxed. When I left Slidell for Florida I left the copies at Aldersgate knowing that I could always get a copy from them. Ooops! The next choir director who came in decide to purge the library of ALL xeroxed music and he heaves the whole thing in the trash!! All that is left is a cassette tape from which I've been very slowly transcribing. It's slow going, but I have two pieces done: the theme hymn, "Come to the Fountain" and "You've Got to Keep Your Eyes on the Lord."   Send me your address, and I'll be happy to share my first effort at writing "trasch". hehehe       Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: wind pressure (sort of) From: Icorgan@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:55:30 EDT   I just had a catty little thought regarding wind pressure. Low pressures have been in vogue for some time now. Do you suppose a similar rating = could be established for ministers? Then when a church is considering a certain =   candidate, they could inquire about his/her wind pressure. Again, low is = to be preferred. :) Maynard  
(back) Subject: Re: priestly egos From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:10:01 -0700       JDeCaria@aol.com wrote:   > After reading the recent pipechat posts on priestly egos, i feel = compelled, > as well as qualified to comment here. Roman Catholic clergy, whether = secular > or religions, have had a history of being calle "authoritarian" and = "control > freaks". this reputation, while a little harsh in my opinion, is not = totally > undeserved. > > The Roman Church has always centralized authority in its clergy, and for = very > good reason. For hundreds of years, clergywere the only ones who were > educated enough to efficiently administer a parish, andtend to the needs = of > the community. Historically, they have served a multitude of roles, in > addition to their priesty offices. They have been civil judges, = arbitrators, > "doctors" (such as they were in the middle ages), and bankers, and = town/gov't > administrators. While they may have functioned well in a society in = which > most of the population was incapable of fulfilling these roles, times = have > changed. People are not ignorant, and are quite often just as educated, = if > not more so, than the clergy. Unfortunately, the total control that was = at > one time necessary for a priest to function had been merged into the = seminary > training over the centuries. > > In modern times (ie: since Vatican II), Church Scholars in charge of = seminary > formation have moved dramatically away from anything resembling = pre-Vatican > II tradition. Modern priests, trained after Vatican II have, in the vast > majority of seminaries, been trained to facilitate democracy in the = running > of the parish. > > I disagree, not with the philosophy of democratic parish administration, = but > with it's modern, extreme applications. > > In today's world, a Parish Finance Council is most likely much more = competent > to make financiual decisions that the parish priest alone. Likewise, the > organist/music director is much more likely than the priest to be able = to > make decisions on musically related issues (provided of course that he = is a > competent musician - that is a whole other can of worms which i will not > address here). > > Where I digress from the philosophy of democracy in a parish is in = matter of > faith and morals. Lay people, no matter how educated, are NEVER more > competent than the parish priest to instruct the falithful (of whose = immortal > souls the pastor of the parish has care) on matters of faith and morals. = This > precludes lay catechists, unless they are teaching from church = documents > provided by the pastor, and do not attempt to interpret them for the = people > they are teaching. The ONLY people who have the right to interpret (that = is, > to examine the documents and then decided which parts to teach or to = omit, to > emphasize or de-emphasize) are validly ordained clergy.   Sorry, Joseph, even St. Thomas Aquinas (who is NOT my favorite theologian) = taught the Primacy of an Informed Conscience. THAT applies to laity as well as = clergy.   > NO ONE ELSE. > Another bone of contention is the concept of the "liturgist" This term = is an > oxymoron -- there is no such thing as a liturgist. the function of what = we > call a liturgist is rightly reserved to the office of the ordained, and = to NO > ONE ELSE. Lay people have absolutely NO right to make decisions about = the > Holy Sacrifice of the Mass specifically because thay cannot offer the > sacrifice themselves.   Oh come on! Even in the "old days", we had "straw" subdeacons (laymen or seminarians) ... the only difference was that they didn't wear the maniple = or give Communion ... and MANY parishes had lay Masters of Ceremonies, who = often knew a GREAT deal more than the clergy about the minutae of Fortescue & O'Connell. There was no parish on the face of the EARTH more conservative = than Old St. Mary's in Cincinnati when I was there, and we had both (along with = the Tridentine Solemn Mass in Latin at the High Altar).   > > > Any priest who assigns some to teach catechism or to act as a = "liturgist" > acts in error, and against not only the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, > but against the wishes and goals of the Two Holy Fathers of the Council, > Popes John XXIII and PaulVI.   What about Religious, both male and female? They taught religion in the = schools in the old days.   > > > What then, is my point? In todays society, it makes the most sense to = assign > tasks to the person/group who 1) has the right to deal with them, and 2) = who > is most capable of dealing with them. It only makes sense to allow the = Parish > Financel Council to draw up the parish budget. It makes sense to allow = the > Music Director (he is NOT a minister - the only ministers are the = ordained) > to have autonomy in choosing music, planning/organizing concerts, etc. = It > folows then that the priests must also have autonomy in matters = pertaining > directly to his priestly office - catechisis, the Holy Sacrifice of = Mass, > and other Rites (I don't like to call them liturgies - they are NOT). > > While, because he has care of the immortal souls of his flock, a pastor = has > the right and the responsibility to ensure that his parish is being run > economically and efficiently, he must also respect the responsibilities = and > the degree of autonomy that is proper to those aforementioned groups = that > also make great and valuable contributions to the parish community. It = is > when a priest attempts to exercise absolute control over areas that he = is > not qualified to, or that he has previously assigned to others, that he > becomes authoritatian and draconic. This is as great a mortal sin as = the > other extreme of giving complete autonomy to these same groups. A Parish > Cummunity is a manifestation of the living body of Christ in which all > systems are dependant on each other, with the Pstor as it's head. This = is the > goal envisioned by the SVC and Popes John XXIII and Paul VI. I remain, > > your humble servant, > Joseph DeCaria > > P.S. while i claim to be an authority on the Roman Church, i make no = such > claims as to my typing abilitites. please excuse any mistakes. mea culpa   Joseph, there are parishes RIGHT NOW in the RC diocese of Oakland (and = many others) who have either Deacons or Lay Administrators as Pastors BECAUSE = THERE ARE NO PRIESTS. I think in the Archdiocese of L.A., it's one priest for = every FIVE THOUSAND people. No WAY can a priest do everything you outline. When = I was in the hospital, RC lay people brought the Blessed Sacrament to the sick. = When my Anglican priest came to anoint me and give me Holy Communion, the man in = the next bed was THUNDERSTRUCK. "How did YOU rate a PRIEST???" he asked me.   The sad fact is that John-Paul II has chosen to cling to a celibate male = clergy .... if the next pope doesn't alter that, the Roman Catholic church as we = know it will cease to exist in another generation. You will have a priest or = bishop consecrating the Sacrament for the whole DIOCESE in the cathedral, and lay = people doing EVERYTHING else, using episcopally-consecrated Holy Oils. That's = ALREADY the case in some places. The average age of priests in the U.S. is above = fifty, and rising, and there's no one to replace them.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: priestly egos From: Bud/Burgie <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:13:09 -0700       CHERCAPA@aol.com wrote:   > Dear Bud, I'm just curious as to why you feel that way about Ratzinger.   THAT part I will answer privately ... seclusio SCANDALUM (grin)!   > From > what I read, he is the one who has been complaining about the goofy = music in > the RC church since Vatican II and especially the American = interpretation of > those directives. I don't have the original paper before me but there is = a > movement (believe it's the Oxford Movement in England)   Nope, that's the Anglo-Catholic Movement that began at Oxford Universities = in the 1830s.   > which is trying to > return the music of the RC church back to the present church. Maybe = someone > can help me or knows more about it. I try to stay out of controversy > especially regarding religion but there seemed to be something about > Ratzinger that I liked. LOL. Take Care, Paul >   Oh, he wants to restore Mass facing East and the Latin language and = Gregorian Chant and a lot of other things near and dear to my heart; BUT, he's the QUINTESSENTIAL Machiavellian Curia bureaucrat. More privately ...   Cheers,   Bud