PipeChat Digest #1081 - Thursday, September 16, 1999
 
position announcement
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Retiring & moving
  by "John Schneider" <orgsrv@means.net>
Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc.
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc.
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
design a small organ
  by "LAMAR BOULET" <lmar@hotmail.com>
Re: Charles Callahan Recital
  by "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: design a small organ
  by "bud" <budchris@earthlink.net>
Re: Concert Report (a bit long)
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: design a small organ
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc.
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: ..what to do...what to do...what to do...???
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: design a small organ
  by "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk>
Organ CD's from Germany
  by <HDKarras@aol.com>
David Higgs recital
  by <WAYNE_BURCHAM@rsausa.com>
Re: design a small organ
  by "Robert Horton" <GEMSHORN@UKANS.EDU>
Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc.
  by "Evelyn Rowe" <efrowe@mindspring.com>
Re: ..what to do...what to do...what to do...???
  by <MickBerg@aol.com>
Jazz funeral music
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc.
  by "N Brown" <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Reubke Sonata
  by "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net>
Re: Jazz funeral music
  by "Robert Horton" <gemshorn@ukans.edu>
 


(back) Subject: position announcement From: Steskinner@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:16:13 EDT   Dear organists and teachers thereof:   Our session has just approved a 15-hour-a-week position for Music Associate/Organist at $15K. Organs are 1983 5/103 Schantz and 1999 2/7 Skinner (as in Steve, not E. M.). Steinway Grands, 5 Octave Whitechapel, = 4 Octave Schulmerich, 2 Octave Malmark, and 3 Octave Choir Chimes. Music program is graded vocal and bell choirs (8), worship music repertoire is mixed--traditional, standard, gospel, contemporary. Erie is in the corner of beautiful northwest Pennsylvania, approximately equidistant from Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh.   Steve Skinner Minister of Music 250 W 7th St. Erie, PA 16501 Email: sskinner@erie.net  
(back) Subject: Retiring & moving From: John Schneider <orgsrv@means.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:13:31 -0500   I'm retiring and moving and must get rid of several Hammonds, an Allen organ and some Leslie's. Also a room full of parts and schematics. Many Hammond parts and Leslie kits. If interested, contact me at: orgsrv@means.net   John -- Organ Service by Schneider Electronics John E. Schneider * 607 Larch Avenue * La Crescent, MN 55947-1270 (507) 895 2702 voice/fax * orgsrv@means.net -- Organ Service by Schneider Electronics John E. Schneider * 607 Larch Avenue * La Crescent, MN 55947-1270 (507) 895 2702 voice/fax * orgsrv@means.net      
(back) Subject: Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc. From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:37:59 -0400 (EDT)   moi spokt: >I have long been considering doing a > completely silly organ recital.... DessertBob RSVP'd: >I thought you already did that with yer famous > Bawldwin Spinet collection...ya know, with the > "Fun Machine"! Um, no. heh heh... That was a funeral!!! ;-)   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc. From: John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:44:03 -0500   Bruce said:   >I have long been considering doing a completely silly organ recital, a >la Victor Borge, complete with prat-falls and wierd sound effects. It >would take some prompting to loosen up the audience, since people are so >afraid to laugh at concerts.   I guess that's why they invented theater organs.   People are NEVER affraid to have a good time at a TO concert, and the = silly pieces often allow the artist to have a good time too.   John V        
(back) Subject: design a small organ From: "LAMAR BOULET" <lmar@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:48:30 PDT   It has been requested of me to design and build a small two manual organ = for a small Episcopal church. I thought this would be an interesting project for the group on pipe chat. What I would like is suggestions on scale, wind pressure, stops, etc. Even pipe makers, consoles, actions I have been servicing organs, on and off , for a bout 40yrs, but have = never taken on a project like this. I would like this organ to be very musical, and have a broad and full = sound, as stops are added, not just loud. If you would not want your ideas made public, cantact me at LMAR@HOTMAIL.COM. THANKS, LMAR     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Charles Callahan Recital From: bud <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:22:35 -0700   Oh MY! The Kilgore Skinner ... YES! A group of us drove over from SMU in = the early seventies to make some tapes on that organ ... stories abound about = that organ, including the one about Harrison taking the Voix celeste back to = the factory to try and figure out how he had made it so lush.   Cheers,   Bud   Robert Ehrhardt wrote:   > Dr. Charles Callahan > First Presbyterian Church, Kilgore Texas > Tuesday, September 14, 1999 > Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Aeolian-Skinner Organ, Op. 1173 > (III/69) > > Rondeau from "Abdelazar" - Henry Purcell > Flute Tune - Thomas Arne > Three Early Italian Works: > Sarabande - Domenico Zipoli > Aria da Ciesa - Anonymous > Allegretto - Giovanni Battita Pescetti > Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor - J. S. Bach > > Trois Pieces - Theodore Dubois > Fantasie > Meditation > Grand Choeur > Romance sans Paroles - Joseph Bonnet > Variations and Fugue on an Irish Air - Norman Coke-Jephcott > Carillon - Joseph Clokey > Four Pieces - Charles Callahan > 1. Folktune > 2. "Amazing Grace" > 3. "For All the Saints" > 4. Psalm of Praise (Toccata on "Old 100th") > > Encore: Callhan's Prelude on "Abide With Me" > > A delightful program filled with very lyrical and loving playing which > showed to great advantage this truly unique instrument, the child of the = the > late great Roy Perry, organist and choirmaster of the church from 1932 = until > 1972. It is one of the relatively few instruments bearing the signature = of > G. Donald Harrison. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: design a small organ From: bud <budchris@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:55:37 -0700   For a SMALL instrument, tracker action is probably best, unless the = organist is also choirmaster and you don't want to get involved with doing a reversed = and detached tracker console (if indeed there's ROOM for it). Slider chests in = any case, even if they have to have electro-pneumatic pulldowns ... they're = more reliable, and take up less space. Wind pressure: not less than 3'' and not = more than 4''.   What KIND of Episcopal church is crucial to the voicing and the stoplist = ... a high Episcopal church with a choir is going to require an enclosed = division and at least a Gemshorn + celeste for accompanying the Chant, etc., and at = least a SIMPLE combination action. A typical Rite II parish with no choir, where = the congregation sings EVERYTHING, probably doesn't need a Swell Organ (though = the organist might WANT one).   In any case, Anglican music does NOT sound good on a neo-North German = organ, IMO. The best Hook & Hastings (BEFORE 1900) and Johnsons are probably the = best model for the sound: singing, broad-scale principals, clear but warm = flutes, Franco-American reeds, etc.(even though H & H's reeds were thought of as germanic at the time).   Or, for a small instrument, take as a model the English church organ of = the 18th century and add a modest Pedal Organ.   If the room is acoustically dead, follow H & H's practice of making the principals somewhat larger than normal scale, and strengthen the 16' tone = ... H & H occasionally made a Pedal to Pedal 10 2/3' coupler in dead rooms to = give the bass more of a "bloom". And be VERY careful of the upperwork, that it = doesn't shriek in the dry acoustics.   A couple of small specs:   GREAT - 61 notes, unenclosed   8' Open Diapason 8' Chimney Flute - wood, pierced stoppers 4' Octave 2' Mixture (possibly with the 2' rank as a double-draw) 8' Trumpet   CHAIR - 61 notes, unenclosed   8' Stopt Diapason 4' Principal 2 2/3' Sesquialtera II ranks (full compass) 2' Small Octave 8' Cremona   PEDAL - 32 notes, unenclosed   16' Sub Bass - stopped wood, generous scale 8' Octave Bass - open metal 4' Chorale Bass - open metal 16' Bassoon - notes 1-12 half-length   ---------------------------------------   GREAT - 61 notes, enclosed in its own box (perhaps), except for * stops   8' Open Diapason* 8' Harmonic Flute 8' Violoncello 4' Octave* 2' Mixture* 8' Trumpet   SWELL - 61 notes, enclosed   8 Stopt Diapason 8' Viola 8' Vox celeste T.C. 4' Flute 2 2/3' Cornet III - full compass, perhaps with the 2' rank as a double = draw 8' Oboe   PEDAL - 32 notes, unenclosed   16' Sub Bass - stopped wood 10 2/3 Quint Bass - stopped wood 8' Octave Bass 4' Chorale Bass 16' Trombone - wooden resonators, notes 1-12 half-length   Of course, if you go with pitman unit chests, ranks could be extended, = duplexed, etc. I'm presuming a totally straight stoplist with no borrows, = extensions, duplexings, etc.   Cheers,   Bud   LAMAR BOULET wrote:   > It has been requested of me to design and build a small two manual organ = for > a small Episcopal church. > I thought this would be an interesting project for the group on pipe = chat. > What I would like is suggestions on scale, wind pressure, stops, etc. > Even pipe makers, consoles, actions > I have been servicing organs, on and off , for a bout 40yrs, but have = never > taken on a project like this. > I would like this organ to be very musical, and have a broad and full = sound, > as stops are added, not just loud. > If you would not want your ideas made public, cantact me at > LMAR@HOTMAIL.COM. > THANKS, LMAR > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Concert Report (a bit long) From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:27:03 +0100   Neil,   I wish I was there!,   Richard    
(back) Subject: Re: design a small organ From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:40:47 -0400 (EDT)   We need more information. Size of the room location: chancel -- divided or East end, gallery, nave floor ceiling height   scaling really should be done by someone who is an expert builder and finisher. For a basic organ, I would begin with:   GREAT unenclosed Spitzgamba 16 from FGAB Principal 8 -- facade Chimney Flute 8 Octave 4 Fifteenth 2 Clarinet 8 tc ::: SWELL - enclosed Viola 8 Viola Celeste 8 Harmonic Flute 4 Nazard 2-2/3 Harmonic Piccolo 2 Tierce 1-3/5 Oboe 8 Tremolo ::: PEDAL Subbass 16 Open Flute 8 Choral Bass 4 Bassoon 16   Wind pressure seems to be most successful at around 3", even in small organs.. If anything needs to be prepared or omitted, I would start with the reeds since this is a small church and might not have the money for reed tuning. Have been in this situation, I have found the cornet far more useful since it yields at least 3 different solo sounds without tuning problems. The Great Spitzgamba 16 not only give light depth to the Great for the non-pedal playing organist, but is also useful as a unison stop when played up an octave and used with the Chimney Flute. The Fifteenth is critical and indispensable for hymn accompaniment; in small rooms mixtures are not necessary and even often greatly disliked by the congregation and the acoustics. Clarinet and Oboe solo stops add color and are much more useful than a Trumpet which is generally too big and limited in usefulness. The Pedal could be reduced to one or two 16' stops, although the 8 and 4 flues are quite noticeable in accompanying. Rather than go to the expense of unification, equivalent results can be obtained with couplers. Recommended action is mechanical without electrical or SS playing aids.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc. From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:52:45 +0100   Dear List,   Every year my teacher goes to Norwich Cathedral to do such a recital, = things such as the Entertainer and Dance of the Sugar Plum fairies (just transcriptions really)   Richard    
(back) Subject: Re: ..what to do...what to do...what to do...??? From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:11:38 +0100   Carlo,   I went to a recital given by David Higgs in the holidays and he played a piece which I can't remember. It was by a living (I think) American composer. It had this massive gospel section in the middle - we all wanted to get up and dance!!! The program notes said that the composer had = written about 10 "Gospel Preludes" - if anyone knows who they are by maybe one of these is the thing!!!   Hope this helps,   Richard    
(back) Subject: Re: design a small organ From: "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:24:20 +0100   The small organ at our church is good for choir accompaniment, here is the speck (at least it would be good if it was voiced a little better!!!): Great 61 Notes: 8' Open Diapason 8' Stopped Diapason 4' Principal 2' Octave 3r Mixture 3r Cornet (8' Trumpet - doesn't exist but it would be useful, the reason for not having one is that the fanfare trumpet on the big organ can be played from the great or swell) Tremulant   SW - Gt.   Swell 61 Notes Enclosed: 8' Gedackt 8' Salicional 8' Unda Maris 4' Wald Flute 2' Octave (Stop name wrong, but pitch correct) 3r(?) Mixture 8' Oboe (dire, because of voicing - maybe a small trumpet would be better)   Sub Octave Tremulant   Pedal 32 Notes: 16' Bourdon 8' Octave 8' Gedackt (4' Choral Bass - doesn't exist, but is needed really for voluntaries = etc.) 16' Fagot   Hope this helps,   Richard    
(back) Subject: Organ CD's from Germany From: HDKarras@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:33:05 EDT   Dear Pipechatters,   please have a look at the Homepage from "Prospect", a nice label: http://www.prospect-he.de/ Most of mine recordings there. Thanks and Bye, Hans-Dieter Karras Music Director Lutheran Church St.Ulrici Braunschweig  
(back) Subject: David Higgs recital From: WAYNE_BURCHAM@rsausa.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:38:40 -0400       My guess would be that it was by William Bolcom.   Wayne Burcham NYC & Milford, PA         "Richard Pinel" <rpinelchat@musicman123.freeserve.co.uk> on 09/15/99 = 02:11:38 PM   Please respond to "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org>   To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> cc: (bcc: WAYNE BURCHAM/NYOM/ROYAL-SSD) Subject: Re: ..what to do...what to do...what to do...???         Carlo,   I went to a recital given by David Higgs in the holidays and he played a piece which I can't remember. It was by a living (I think) American composer. It had this massive gospel section in the middle - we all wanted to get up and dance!!! The program notes said that the composer had = written about 10 "Gospel Preludes" - if anyone knows who they are by maybe one of these is the thing!!!   Hope this helps,   Richard     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org                
(back) Subject: Re: design a small organ From: Robert Horton <GEMSHORN@UKANS.EDU> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:16:02 -0600   >It has been requested of me to design and build a small two manual organ = for >a small Episcopal church. Lamar, OOF! that's a tall order. Let's see, in no particular order, I'll try to run through some of the concerns that jump to mind. Before we even start talking about stoplists and wind pressures, I think we need to back up and talk about your shop and experience. How are you set up for tools and know-how in terms of cabinet work? I assume that you don't have your own foundry (that's OK, a lot of the best builders don't do metal pipes in house) but will you be making your own wood pipes? Do you have the capability to put together a slider chest with a perfectly true table? Questions like this will determine how much your going to be able to do "in house" and how much will have to be ordered from places = like Laukhuff or OSI. We also need to know about the location where you'll be building. What's the acoustic and where will the organ be sitting? How much = vertical height do you have to play with? Unless you've been given a miserable little "closet" of a chamber or some bizarre requests for the external design, a rear-pivoted = mechanical action is your best bet. How are you on case design? Go ahead and brush up on design by studying some old organ cases and try to stick to a simple, classically designed case. Unless, of course, the room itself begs for something "contemporary" (ugh)...in which case, you're on your own and people will probably bitch and complain about it fifty years from now no matter what you do. Be sure to draw on your experience as a technician. If you've been in the field for 40 years, you must have some idea of what you liked and didn't like. Go back to organs that were successful and ask yourself why you like them and specifically why they work (or don't work). Then try to apply those lessons to your own design.   >I would like this organ to be very musical, and have a broad and full = sound, > as stops are added, not just loud. Unless you have a real ace up your sleeve in terms of room acoustic, I'm just going to say that 19th American in the style of E.&G.G. Hook is your best place to start. While style, stoplists, scaling, case design, and wind pressures are going to have a substantial impact on the voice of the = instrument...the buck stops at voicing - end of discussion. This instrument will live or die based on how well you are able to go from a pile of wood and metal = into an ensemble of beautiful voices that combines to fill the room with a drop-dead gorgeous plenum. Finally, don't succumb to the temptation to put all of the church's money into pipework. While folks seeing this instrument listed in TAO = will probably judge it based on the stoplist alone, the value of a sturdy chassis and beautiful casework can't be overemphasized. To be blunt I'd much rather see a carved mahogany or oak case containing five ranks than a laminated plywood case containing ten ranks.   Well, we've got some questions to answer before we go anywhere else with this, but congratulations on landing the job, and you've got a lot of work ahead of you.   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn/   Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?      
(back) Subject: Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc. From: Evelyn Rowe <efrowe@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:27:12 -0400   Back during the Mark Conrad administration at St. Paul's, K St., we did an evening of the more entertaining pieces in the literature. The only one I actually remember was Clarence Dickinson's transcription of "The Ride of the Valkyries" (one organ, four hands) played by Mark Conrad and Jim Sanderson on the 1977 Irving Lawless rebuild. All I can say is, it was really something.     Evie   mailto:efrowe@mindspring.com  
(back) Subject: Re: ..what to do...what to do...what to do...??? From: MickBerg@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:35:32 EDT   Evelyn Rowe's suggestion of "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" - "or anything = else with a recognizable tune" reminded me of my nephew's wedding, where the less-than-stunning organist played both "Jesu Joy" and "Wachet Auf" = without bothering to include the Cantus Firmus or whatever it is called.   An interesting organ, by the way, a "Cecilia" model "Scudamore Organ", = in the actual Upton Scudamore church, where the vicar, the Reverend John = Baron, came up with his "Scudamore Organ" concept for the smallest organ capable = of supporting a church service.   Mick Berg.  
(back) Subject: Jazz funeral music From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:23:31 -0400 (EDT)     I am planning to have a requiem-type service for All Saints, and am looking for traditional and accessible New Orleans and black style jazz and blues music. =A0 The idea is to have a service with great emotional impact and spirituality. =A0 All help and ideas will be appreciated.   Bruce & the Baskerbeagles ~~+~~+~~ rohrschok8@webtv.net ~~+~~+~~   When a man's dog turns against him it is time for his wife to pack her trunk and go home to mama. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: "Silly" Toccatas, etc. From: Innkawgneeto@webtv.net (N Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:26:50 -0400 (EDT)   People have actually asked me to do Borge-style antics in my concerts, because I already mix a lot of humor into my anecdotes and discussions. I consider it complimentary. I was so dizzy from mid recital onward last Saturday, that I almost fell off the bench w/o trying. I didn't, for which I'm grateful. But I'm sure they would have thought it part of the shtick. --Neil    
(back) Subject: Reubke Sonata From: "Mark Hopper" <mahopper@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:16:43 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0098_01BEFFD8.C19C0900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Anyone out there ever played the Reubke 94th Psalm? If so, I would love = =3D to contact you privately to discuss several particular fingering & =3D interpretational issues.   Thanks! Mark mahopper@bigfoot.com     ------=3D_NextPart_000_0098_01BEFFD8.C19C0900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Anyone out there ever played the Reubke <EM>94th =3D Psalm?&nbsp;=3D20 </EM>If so, I would love to contact you privately to discuss several =3D particular=3D20 fingering &amp; interpretational issues.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Thanks!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:mahopper@bigfoot.com">mahopper@bigfoot.com</A></FONT></DIV= =3D > <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0098_01BEFFD8.C19C0900--    
(back) Subject: Re: Jazz funeral music From: Robert Horton <gemshorn@ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:42:39 -0500 (CDT)   On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, bruce cornely wrote: > I am planning to have a requiem-type service for All Saints, and am > looking for traditional and accessible New Orleans and black style jazz > and blues music. =A0 The idea is to have a service with great emotional > impact and spirituality. =A0 All help and ideas will be appreciated.   =09Don't forget to include the Duke Ellington "Come Sunday"--if you're daring, you could even do it as a congregational hymn.   Robert Horton - GTA, University of Kansas http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~gemshorn   "...desperately trying to understand why kamikaze pilots wore helmets."