PipeChat Digest #1091 - Thursday, September 23, 1999
 
A Summer Sub --- Summer 1999 memories
  by <flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw>
Re: Instrument in The House of God
  by <DEMPAR1@aol.com>
Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: West Point Cadet Chapel Fall 1999 Concert Series
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches
  by "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com>
Re: Instrument in The House of God
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: Lectionary Music
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Lectionary Music
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Halloween
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Halloween
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
tube-pneu's
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Instrument in The House of God
  by "bruce cornely" <rohrschok8@webtv.net>
Re: Halloween
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: tube-pneu's
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Instrument in The House of God
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Protestant Epispocal Worship resourses wanted
  by "John Winn" <john@jwinn.demon.co.uk>
 


(back) Subject: A Summer Sub --- Summer 1999 memories From: flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:48:14 +0800 (CST)     Greetings!     This past summer I subbed for two churches. The first was a Baptist (presumably Southern Baptist since they are in the South, although I didn't ask) and the second was a Christian Scientist.   The first church seemed to be a graying congregation .... not too many children in attendance ... I hadn't subbed for a Baptist church in many years. But I was not disappointed with the singing, their appreciation for helping out (they were, at that time, between organists), and their friendliness.   On the first Sunday I played from a score which was a medley of two hymns, with some sort of transition between the two hymns. The director merely told them to turn from one hymn in their hymnbook to another. I mentioned to one of the choir members that it was a pity that they were not singing from the same book as I was playing from. They agreed. On the next sunday I subbed for they, you better be sure they were singing from the same book I was playing from! The choir was a summer pick-up choir, who did very well, and who reassured me in the rehearsal before the service that I was doing fine (sometimes these supposedly "easy" things are not that easy ...) When I sub in the summer all too often it is just me, without a choir... their director was very easy to work with, appreciated my help, and was especially easy to follow.   The Allen organ was another matter. Yes, it was a standard AGO console.... Have any of you played on an Allen with the generals reading something like, All Diapasons become VIolas; All Diapasons become Dulcianas; Open Flute become Stopped flute, etc? I had not! Moreover, there was no Swell to Great 8 or 4 couplers! So for the hymns I merely used the 8, 4, 2 Diapasons (and Mixture sometimes if there was one). The director even told me for the gloria patri he wanted me to play loud... apparently they had not been using it. As I mentioned above, the congregation sang well in spite of the carpet on the floor, and I = didn't have to play too loud...     The second church was a Christian Scientist church. I had never played for a Christian Scientist church before, but I could tell that the chairwoman of the music committee was so glad to get me .... Their regular organist of 70+ years had played for them for a number of years with only 2 weeks off every year.... And she told them she would only play for them for 2 weeks a month.... so for about a year and a half, the music chair would have to call the members of the local AGO chapter who were on the substitute list --- needless to say that was pressure on the chairwoman, who looked to be in her 60s.   When I got to the church (yes, they gave me a key to come and go as I needed to) the first time, I met the clerk, who led me to their Allen organ, which was a rather large AGO standard console one .... I was very happy, because I had a number of stops to choose from, and I did not have to be bothered with the generals in the Allen of church one (Diapasons become Dulcianas, Diapasons become Violas, etc.). I asked the clerk to wait a minute to be sure I could get some sound out of the "beast..." no problem... it was very cooperative ... and then after thanking her, she took her leave.   The chairwoman had previously given me a sheet with detailed instructions and with the order of worship... I was told how many minutes to play (approximately) before the service and how many to play after the service... So, with the air conditioning going, I sat down to practice, and, with a timer on the console, I timed my preludes and postludes.   The Christian Science churches have no choir; they usually have a professional paid soloist... The only solo work I had played for before consisted of a simple hymn duet many years ago.... Fortunately, as the soloist had been dealing with many subs for the past year and a half, she was very helpful.... She said that, in effect, when she wasn't singing that I could play the pianistic type accompaniment of the solos.... and when she was singing, I could simply simplify the accompaniment, and play appropriate chords with the melody as the top note! I would like to respectfully suggest that you use this method, if you, like me, cannot rehearse with a soloist except for 30 minutes before the service. Fortunately at the first rehearsal, the soloist and I were able to rehearse a little of the solo for the second of the two sundays I played... and the accompaniment for the second sunday solo was easier, I thought.   This church too seemed to be a bit greying .... But people thanked me for coming ... again, they were grateful for my music... In fact, before the second service one person said, "I know we are going to have some nice music today." I said, "How do you know? I haven't even started to play for you yet." She said, "I was here last Sunday." My reply was "Oooh!"   For both Sundays, people (not all of them) stayed to hear my postludes... which I thought was a nice gesture... The chairwoman had told me that they probably would .... I asked her if, as they do at another church I have subbed for, those that stayed would applaud.... She smiled and said, "No, you don't have to worry about that."   At the end of the service for the second sunday, the soloist came down and said that she like the fugue of the Prelude and Fugue I had played (JSB's Little Prelude and Fugue in C major) for my postlude. I then asked her if she had a chance to study music (since she had a nice voice). She said, "Oh yes, I got a doctorate in music from the U. of Maryland with my little voice." Needless to say I was really surprised.... You hear stories of solists being difficult to deal with. But Betsy, the soloist was as down to earth as you could be, and so cooperative ...   The nice thing for this church is that shortly after I played for them the local AGO chapter newsletter came out with a job-share advertisement.... someone with training and experience called the chairwoman, and it looks as if this church will now have someone to help them out regularly. I did tell the chairwoman that the salary should be a little higher....(it is only $100.00 on Sunday --- the local AGO chapter recommends a minimum of $125.00) The chairwoman said she knew that but it took some doing to get it from $60.00 up to $100.00 --- but she is going to try and get it up to $`125.00 ---     Many years ago a local newspaper had a column entitled, "A Stranger Goes to Church." I guess you can call the above column which I have written, "A Stranger Goes to a Church to Sub..."     Best wishes to all...         Morton Belcher fellow pipechat member  
(back) Subject: Re: Instrument in The House of God From: DEMPAR1@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:49:14 EDT   I admit I am a dirty old theatre organist but I have been to many concerts = in houses of worship where the content included everything from Bach to = Beatles. The most memorable experiences I can recall include Justin Hartz closing a =   classical concert on the Temple Sinai E.M. Skinner in New Orleans with Roller Coaster and the late Virgil Fox breaking out in a chorus of Maple = Leaf Rag on an 80 ranker. . Lets face it, if God had enough of a sense of humor = to create mankind, then I tend to believe He too probably enjoys a little variety in the music played in His house. Conduct your services with the appropriate respect but when the occasion is entertainment (and that what = a concert is), then entertain everyone, including the owner of the building. =     In a message dated 09/22/1999 10:54:17 PM Central Daylight Time, budchris@earthlink.net writes:   << > (snip) > For the conservatives here: You can not have your cake and eat it to = dear > friends! If you want only Religious Music in your churches than fine! = NO > more Bridal Choruses by Wagner and Mendelshonn. >>  
(back) Subject: Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:57:37 -0400   > How sad, if you mean THE Church of the Advent in Boston. They >must NOT = be doing > SOMETHING right.   Yes, the very same. And I do not attribute it to any "mistakes" made by anyone. God gave me this path and it is the path I will follow. My grandfather died over the summer, and there is no doubt in my mind that he is in heaven with God. He/she/it (PC version) leads all on different = paths, whether it be strict to the extreme, or....well...Baptist. :) LOL. = Anyways, God is not necessarily attached to one particular religion. God is God. If you took all of religion away, all of the pomp, hymns, churches, scripture reading, etc, etc, he/she/it would still be there.   > Not necessarily, but, with respect, I wonder if you could really put = >your heart > (and soul) (grin) into leading the Body of Christ in that place through >the > Church's Year of Grace.   I find that the presence of God alone is what guides my music. After all, Christ -is- God. I don't know what the rest of the congregation is focused on when I'm playing Locklair's "The Peace May Be Exchanged". All I know is that I feel the presence of God and absolute peace.   But ANYWAYS. Getting out o' the religious views here...   >Perhaps you might consider the Unitarians ... they > usually pay well, and you can do literally ANYTHING for music, from = >opera scenes > to Broadway musicals to ballet to ...   Don't get me started. All this PC is driving me nuts. Lest they offend God him/herself. ;)   >position, I > can't IMAGINE a non-Anglican KNOWING everything that has to be >known, and/or > taking the time to learn it if he/she WASN'T Anglican.   On the contrary. If I was Christian, I would be Anglican. I've been attending Anglican churches since...well, before I was born. Until I = became the organist at an RC church down the street when I was 15. Trust me, I = know the service backwards, forwards and inside out. I even know what key my pastor likes to chant in. ;)   -Rebekah      
(back) Subject: Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:59:54 -0400   > church with a 1905 tube-pneu M=F6ller. They were the most musical   Someone, PLEASE tell me--whose bright idea was that? My mother had one in= a little Methodist church and it was -so- horrible. Notes sticking, blendin= g. Didn't help that it was all 8' of course...   > THAT organ was nigh impossible. Also, the action was slow enough >so t= hat I > could play the hymns and voluntaries before the service started, and >t= hen > sit in the nave while it finally played! OK, joke..joke...hehehhee!   THe 1905 equivalent of midi. :)   -Rebekah      
(back) Subject: Re: West Point Cadet Chapel Fall 1999 Concert Series From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:30:09 -0400   Last figure I saw was 304 about three years ago--but also still growing, = and perhaps not in an altogether disciplined style.   Alan Freed   ---------- >From: TheOrganst@aol.com   > How many ranks is the West Point Chapel organ?  
(back) Subject: Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches From: Ron Natalie <ron@sensor.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:52:21 -0500       bud wrote: > Perhaps you might consider the Unitarians ... they > usually pay well, and you can do literally ANYTHING for music, from = opera scenes > to Broadway musicals to ballet to ...   Hey, I resemble that remark. I believe I'm probably the only person to = have played the organ at our Unitarian-Universalist church in several years. = Our music director is more inclined towards the piano.   But we don't applaud, nor do we "exit" during the postlude.   -Ron (Of course, the last time Jesus Christ was mentioned was when the janitor fell down the stairs).  
(back) Subject: Re: Instrument in The House of God From: Tim Bovard <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:44:14 -0500   At 9/22/99 08:51 PM, Bud snipped/wrote: >   >> Let's get it together here Ladies and Gentlemen. If we want the Organ, = our >> instrument of choice, to be popular > >Is "popular" our object, or the leading of the worship of Almighty God?     Quick answer: a resounding "YES!!!"   I, for one, see no reason why the organ cannot/should not be both. If I were a church musician, I would strive for just that end result. If we do not, we will certainly watch our beloved instrument slip further down the path to extinction...do we REALLY want THAT???   Something to think about...(and a little more "on-topic" than much of the last few days' discussion...<g>)   TIm  
(back) Subject: Re: Lectionary Music From: Myosotis51@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:41:31 EDT   In a message dated 09/22/1999 9:46:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, efrowe@mindspring.com writes:   << >Does anyone know of a list which discusses music appropriate to the >lectionary? The pastor of the church were I work is on a lectionary >discussion list and often finds hymn suggestions on that list. I'd be >pleased to learn what other people propose in anthems and organ = voluntaries >to match readings for given Sundays. >>   The AGO magazine, The American Organist, has a monthly column on suggested =   anthems, hymns, and service music.  
(back) Subject: Re: Lectionary Music From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:49:43 -0400   Jerry:   No list that I'm aware of, but Augsburg Fortress puts out a series of = 8.5x11 paperbacks called "Sundays and Seasons" that gives you vastly hugely more than you could ever possibly use in this vein: choral, organ, handbells, orchestra, etc., ad infinitum. All pegged to the Revised Common = Lectionary, of course.   Alan   ---------- >From: JKVDP@aol.com >To: pipechat@pipechat.org >Subject: Lectionary Music >Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999, 4:26 PM >   > list which discusses music appropriate to the > lectionary?  
(back) Subject: Re: Halloween From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:17:56 -0400 (EDT)   >=A0=A0=A0=A0I can't stand the fact that Halloween is a 3 > day holiday here in Toms River. Mischief nite >is on the 29th, because Trick or Treat is on the > 30th, because the largest parade on the > eastern seaboard falls on 31st. Being as I have been blessed with dogs rather than children (!), Hallowe'en is not my time of year. However, I do recall as a child being taught what Hallowe'en is really about, and that there is security in knowing that as Christians we need not fear. It is symbolic crazy behavior. Children really don't care what it's about as long as the bag is full of treats (much like two-legged beagles). The same is pretty much true of Christmas and Easter.   >=A0=A0=A0=A0I can't stand the fact that I have to CANCEL > rehearsals when Halloween falls on rehearsal > nights. I do it because no one will come > anyway. I have the same feeling Thanksgiving and Christmas day when we cancel worship because people have other things to do that are more important.   >=A0=A0=A0=A0I have a hard time w/ the feeling I get > driving thru our (and other) neighborhoods > when the decorations on houses are virtually > outstripping Chmas in abundance. It's down > right creepy. Actually, I have less trouble with a preponderance of Christmas decorations. At least all the witchery and creepery is not in the guise of religion.   However, regarding the neighbor family, we never know when we will reach someone in need. If we are going to meet people "where they are" sometimes we must go to strange places!     bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Halloween From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:20:45 -0400 (EDT)     >Friends, as I so seldom do, I am landing > squarely in between the 2 viewpoints on this > issue. Uh oh! Remember what Rev. Moody said about being middle-of-the-road: There's nothing in the middle of the road but broken yellow lines and dead possums.   hehehehehe   bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:55:21 -0400 (EDT)   > If you took all of religion away, all of the > pomp, hymns, churches, scripture reading, > etc, etc, he/she/it would still be there. Oooh! Thank heaven you didn't take away organs!!     bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: tube-pneu's From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:32:33 -0400 (EDT)     >1905 tube-pneu M=F6ller. >Someone, PLEASE tell me--whose bright idea > was that? "Although there had been earlier experiments in France, the history of tubular-pneumatic action in England begins in the 1850's, when Henry Willis first dispensed with the mechanical linkage between key and pallet..." Making of the Victorian Organ by Nicholas Thistlethwaite. (an excellent and very fun book to read)   >My mother had one in a little Methodist church > and it was -so- horrible. Notes sticking, > blending. Didn't help that it was all 8' of > course... Nothing works well when not properly maintained. I have played an 1860's (?) Harrison 2m t-p at St. Peter's Church, Fernandina FL which was an absolute joy to play. I think the spec was: Great: Open Diapason 8 Melodia 8 Gamba 8 Dulciana 8 Principal 4 Flute 4 Fifteenth 2 Swell: Bourdon 16 treble/bass Open Diapason 8 Stopped Diapason 8 Salicional 8 Keraluphone 8 Violina 4 Harmonic Flute 4 Flautina 2 Dolce Cornet II Pedal: Open Wood 16   It unfortunately sits semi-idle because "someone" couldn't get through an Episcopal service without MIDI, pistons and a "BIG trumpet" in a building that might seat 100! The case is curley pine native to the area and the pipes are beautifully stencilled. The organ was restored by John and Kristin Farmer about ten years ago, and played as well as any ep.   >THAT organ was nigh impossible. Also, the > action was slow enough >so that I could play > the hymns and voluntaries before the service > started, and >then sit in the nave while it > finally played! Don't blame this on the organ. It was only a cry for maintenance!!! ;-)   bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Instrument in The House of God From: rohrschok8@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:39:50 -0400 (EDT)   >Is "popular" our object, or the leading of the > worship of Almighty God? >Quick answer: a resounding "YES!!!" >I, for one, see no reason why the organ > cannot/should not be both. I agree as well. But we must also fight the curious mind (?) set of the "contemporary" folks who believe the organ to be inextricably linked to traditional, non-contemporary worship. Once again, contemporary worship has reared its ugly head and the first thing to be eliminated is the pipe organ. "Oh, we'll get a keyboard!" says they! Like a pipe organ can function with kazoos, drums, gittarz and play only two chords per song. Just what IS their problem! Of course, the second thing to go is the trained musician. If someone actually knows music and can read notes, then they somehow cannot be inspired by God. How do we counteract these sick ideas?   bruce cornely ~:~:~ rohrschok8@webtv.net gainesville, florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Halloween From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:56:45 -0700   At 10:17 AM 9/23/1999 -0400, Brewse wrote:   >It is symbolic crazy behavior. Children really don't care what it's = about as long >as the bag is full of treats (much like two-legged beagles). = The same is >pretty much true of Christmas and Easter.<snip>   Secrets of the Famous Dep't:   Pssst! Don't tell anyone, but Brewse has been known to "trick-or-treat" around his neighborhood, dressed as a Bawldwin Spinet! Film at 11....   hehehehehehehe!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: non-Christian organists in Christian churches From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:56:47 -0700   At 10:55 AM 9/23/1999 -0400, you wrote: >> If you took all of religion away, all of the >> pomp, hymns, churches, scripture reading, >> etc, etc, he/she/it would still be there.<snip>   Was it Voltaire said, "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to = invent Him."?   hehehehehe!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: tube-pneu's From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:56:49 -0700   At 11:32 AM 9/23/1999 -0400, Brewse wrote after first I wrote: > >>THAT organ was nigh impossible. Also, the >> action was slow enough >so that I could play >> the hymns and voluntaries before the service >> started, and >then sit in the nave while it >> finally played!<snip>   >Don't blame this on the organ. It was only a cry for maintenance!!!   Oh, there'd been maintenance, alrighty. Being short of funding, we did have some of the congregants help me and a very reputable builder/restorer remove all pipework for cleaning (and movement up a toehole for conversion to A=3D440) whilst the bar-and-membrane TP chests were rebuilt...or so we thought. As has been said in this and that "other" list, these M=F6ller membrane chests are a form of wicked torture to get to work right after releathering!! Leather has to be EXACTLY the right thickness, stretched at EXACTLY the right tension, or it's a "no-go"! After a month and a half of fooling around (and hours on the phone to the M=F6ller Co., who were more interested in selling us a new organ), we finally got the chests to work as designed.   The resulting action was anything but quick, as in "Wurlitzer-quick", to be sure, but the efforts of the releathering paid off with reliability and predictability. Also, with the keydesk being part of the fa=E7ade, the= delay was actually about the same as if playing a normal E-P instrument where the console was somewhat removed from the pipework. Wind re-regulation with the restored regulators brought full orchestral bloom to the pipes' speech, which had been tubby and slow of speech due to insufficient WP. It was a delight to play...IF you played the right repertoire! Bach was still painful, as the counterpoint would be lost in the morass of 8' tone coupled up and down and played 8va.   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Instrument in The House of God From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:21:45 -0700   At 11:39 AM 9/23/1999 -0400, Brewse Bawldwin sed:   >But we must also fight the curious mind (?) set of the >"contemporary" folks who believe the organ to be inextricably linked to >traditional, non-contemporary worship. Once again, contemporary >worship has reared its ugly head and the first thing to be eliminated is >the pipe organ. "Oh, we'll get a keyboard!" says they! Like a pipe >organ can function with kazoos, drums, gittarz and play only two chords >per song. Just what IS their problem! Of course, the second thing >to go is the trained musician. If someone actually knows music and can >read notes, then they somehow cannot be inspired by God. How do we >counteract these sick ideas?<snip>   Not long ago, I turned down an organist position at a smallish UMC church with a nice little Schantz due to the "happy clappies". Somehow, the "H-C's" had gotten the pastor by the short hairs, and demanded that any = new organist be able to "play with the PRAZE band". Some snot-nosed kid was running the music program (he couldn't even READ music!!), and some of the mush-brained parents of the church found the 'praze' band's output to be SOOOOO meaningful, that the pastor was afeared of retribution if he = started reeling in the leash on them.   However, the other faction of the congregation (I'd hazard to guess the majority) demanded another organist to replace the one that had taken = flight due to the 'praze'/'happy clappy' BS that had taken hold. I auditioned, = and it went very well, and the offered stipend was almost doubled afterwards. Still, the pastor said I had to somehow "mix" the organ with the 'praze' crap...something I flatly refused to do. My feeling was that if the = church wanted to do a kiddie service with 'praze'/'happy-clappy' that was totally separate, fine. Nope...gotta be all in one, big happy-clappy = service...cost of air conditioning, ya know. So, I walked. I told some of the = congregants present that if they got rid of the 'praze' banders, I'd reconsider. We shall see.   What was interesting was the apparent disdain for the 'praze'/'happy = clappy' music by many of the folks I spoke with. It made me wonder what was going on with dear pastor! Perhaps the snot-nose had some industrial-grade dirt on him??? Enquiring minds wanna know!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Protestant Epispocal Worship resourses wanted From: "John Winn" <john@jwinn.demon.co.uk> Date: 23 Sep 99 18:48:33 +0100   > Hello List: > > I'm the newly appointed Minister of Music at St. Dunstans Epispocal (sp) > church in Succasunna, NJ. Small choir and toaster of dubious lineage. > > What I need is any suggestions anyone has in worship planning > resources. It seems that, for the first time in my organist career, the > Rector is actually asking my opinion about hymns. > > In the UM church, they published a guide that coorelated the lectionary > propers to the hymnal, which was a good starting point for that sort of > thing. > > Is there anything like this for the Episcopal church? > > And just how in the heck do you spell Epispocal anyway? > The Royal School of Church Music (RSCM) publish church music guides. I know they have a "branch" your side of the Atlantic, and if you contact them I'm sure they will be able to help you in many ways.   John     -- John Winn   Upminster, England