PipeChat Digest #1561 - Thursday, August 17, 2000
 
Re: Who's taking care of the Hounds?.
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Christmas Concert
  by <CdyVanpool@aol.com>
Re: Christmas Concert
  by <snyder@skyenet.net>
Re:  Tallahassee
  by "Jim Zimmerman" <jrzimmer@purdue.edu>
PC Organ Description (long)
  by <MickBerg@aol.com>
Re: Tallahassee
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Tallahassee
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Seeking Associate Organist at FPC of Chicago
  by "Cole Carroll" <CCole@fourthchurch.org>
Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Acoustics and how organ Builders use them!
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Sequencer Use
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Who's taking care of the Hounds?. From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:18:42 -0500   The puppies are getting a two week vacation,,,they don't have to take care =   of Bruce   At 12:35 AM 08/16/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Bruce: > >Gone two weeks! Who'll feed the puppies? > >Ron > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Christmas Concert From: <CdyVanpool@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:47:40 EDT   Dear List, I am doing a Christmas Concert for the Arts and = Education Council, again. (They twisted my arm...) They made one reqest of me, and = I don't know where to find this kind of music. They want the second half of =   the program to be secular with popular Christmas favorites. A more theater =   style presentation....... I can do the secular, but all the fancy stuff = that kind of music requires....I really can't imrovise it, because I can't hear = it in my head....and I don't have time to really do that. I think it would = be fun to do though, because I have never done anything like that. Where do I =   find theater style music? The "gooier" the better....<G> I am thinking about things like: Let it Snow Winter Wonderland White Christmas Silver Bells I'll be Home for Christmas Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas Christmas Song Sleigh Ride   Thanks, Van Vanpool    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Concert From: <snyder@skyenet.net> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:38:30 -0500   I do have a "fancy sheet music copy of Sleigh Ride" It is difficult though, I can't sight read it and I can sight read some Bach. I might have some others in my collection as I have some of those kinds of books. I have never played them so may need to check them out first. I do have a piano book with all those (with some of the embellishments) that I have played and since I teach piano I have some fancy student arrangement too. At 10:47 AM 8/16/00 -0400, you wrote: > Dear List, > I am doing a Christmas Concert for the Arts and = Education >Council, again. (They twisted my arm...) They made one reqest of me, and = I >don't know where to find this kind of music. They want the second half = of >the program to be secular with popular Christmas favorites. A more = theater >style presentation....... I can do the secular, but all the fancy stuff = that >kind of music requires....I really can't imrovise it, because I can't = hear it >in my head....and I don't have time to really do that. I think it would = be >fun to do though, because I have never done anything like that. Where do = I >find theater style music? The "gooier" the better....<G> >I am thinking about things like: >Let it Snow >Winter Wonderland >White Christmas >Silver Bells >I'll be Home for Christmas >Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas >Christmas Song >Sleigh Ride > > Thanks, > Van Vanpool > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clarice Jane Snyder mailto:snyder@skyenet.net, http://www.skyenet.net/~snyder        
(back) Subject: Re: Tallahassee From: "Jim Zimmerman" <jrzimmer@purdue.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:09:16 -0500   Bud wrote regarding the Tallahassee organ scene:   >; I think the Catholics had a >Wicks (?), or maybe it was an electronic (hard to tell the >difference??!!).   If speaking of St. Thomas More Cathedral, the organ is indeed an elderly Allen. Quite nice sounding, too. My niece was married there about three years ago. The organist was an elderly lady who played a magnificent wedding service entirely by ear.   ************* Jim Zimmerman <jrzimmer@purdue.edu> ***************    
(back) Subject: PC Organ Description (long) From: <MickBerg@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:24:25 EDT   ........ Well, eight months later, and I guess the PC organ project is completed. There will be a lot of changes, I'm sure, and one of the advantages of this organ, is the ease with which things can be changed and =   adjusted. And, of course, half the fun of having an organ is messing = around with it!   The organ is based around the Creative SBLive! and AWE64 soundcards, which =   can handle Soundfonts. There are two pipe organ soundfonts that I know of, = "Jeux" by John McCoy, and "Pfiefenorgel" by Andreas Sims. Both these soundfonts contain some excellent sounds, and also some duds as far as I = am concerned. The organ uses sounds from both of these soundfonts. The program that controls everything is "Building Blocks" by Paul Swennenhuis. This is a fascinating modular program that manipulates MIDI = data in every way imaginable. No actual programming is needed. The program has = a neat "Control Panel" that you would use to control stops, if you were not using a regular organ console. This control panel could also contain = sliders to regulate the volume of each stop. Not too shabby, eh?   The organ will run in a very simple computer, ( minimum 133MHz Pentium equivalent) and all that is needed, hardware wise, is a very small hard drive, (or a very small amount of space on the hard drive of your desktop computer if that's how you want to do it), the soundcards, and a simple = MIDI interface. Software needed is Windows (unfortunately), the software for = the soundcards, the soundfonts, and Building Blocks. How many soundcards you = use depends on how many stops you want on the organ. The computer can be your desktop computer if that is convenient, or it can be a dedicated computer. = I built mine into the organ console. You will also need a decent amount of memory, 64Meg minimum.   Input is simple MIDI note-on/off information. This can come from a MIDI interface wired into an organ console, or it can come from MIDI keyboards = and a MIDI pedalboard if desired. The MIDI information from separate keyboards =   would have to be merged into one MIDI stream. There are inexpensive = devices available to do this. For those of you who don't know about MIDI, it is a system of sending information between electronic musical instruments, computers etc., that tells them what notes to play and what sounds to use, =   etc. No actual sound is carried in MIDI, just information. If you want to have a go at this project, you should familiarize yourself with basic MIDI =   operation.   Your instrument could be any size, from a one-manual chamber organ, using = a simple MIDI keyboard, up to the rather large setup that I have put = together, which has five divisions, on three manuals, pedals and a floating Echo division. The organ has 54 speaking stops. The couplers and combination action are in my console, so I have not created them in Building Blocks, = but if you did not have a console, you could have a lot of fun designing software coupler and combination action systems in Building Blocks. Of course, to make the drawknobs move, you would have to get into a whole new =   thing with MIDI driver boards etc. I haven't approached that yet. I can't imagine that a console with drawknobs or stoptabs would not have cuoplers = at least, and probably some kind of combination action.   I will describe my own particular set-up, but the basics apply to any size = of organ. I fitted my Klann console with a Devtronix CIO MIDI interface, that =   sends pure MIDI note on, and velo=3D0 type note off messages. Input to the =   computer is on six MIDI channels, through a simple MIDI and joystick interface connected to the AWE64 soundcard.   The Devtronix system contains an input board for each manual of the organ. =   Each board can handle 61 notes. Since only 32 notes are needed for pedals, =   there are 29 left available to use for stop control on the Pedal input = board. Channel 1 is the pedals, (and the 29 stop controls,) Channel 2 is the = Swell, channel 3 the Great, channel 4 the Choir, channel 5 the (floating) Echo, and channel 6 handles the rest of the stop information.   The stops behave just like notes. When the stop is drawn, a note-on is = sent, and when it is pushed in a note-off is sent.. Within Building Blocks, the stops are turned on and off by reducing the Velocity value to zero for = off, and 127 for on. The volume of each stop is regulated by reducing the = velocity value by a certain percentage. This method prevents note hanging. I am = proud to say that I never get note hangs.   There is a little problem in the way the organ handles stops being drawn = with a note held down. You will not hear the starting transient of the note. It =   will come on just as if it were an analog organ. But the crescendo pedal = will work, which it didn't in an earlier version of the organ.   On the output side, each division of the organ gets its own MIDI port, and =   audio output. The pedal uses the AWE64 card, the Great and Choir share = the first SBLive! and the Swell and Echo share the second SBLive! Two SBLive! cards are made to work in the same computer by trickery which I am not = able to describe, until I check out the legal position. However one AWE64 card = and one SBLive! card will co-habit the same computer without problems, and = this will give you 45 output channels. The AWE64 is an ISA card, and the = SBLive! a PCI card. The difficulty is getting two PCI soundcards to work in the same =   computer. I would leave out the second SBLive! card until you had = everything else working.   An interesting feature is the swell pedals. These use the joystick inputs = of the computer, and the joystick is replaced by a linear potentiometer = operated by the swell pedals. Or one could use a progressive contact type swell = pedal, in conjunction with a resistor network. Tremulant is created in Building Blocks by varying the velocity value with a low frequency oscillator. Each =   division has its own tremulant, with variable speed and depth, and you = could have more if you wanted. Stops do not have to be acted on by the = tremulant. The tremulant only varies the amplitude, as I thoroughly dislike the sound = of "vibrato" in a non-theater organ. The audio of the organ is limited to six channels, by the soundcards' = audio configuration. I have two 12" speakers and tweeters on the pedals, and = four 6" speakers and one tweeter on each of the other outputs. The soundcards provide excellent reverb at no extra cost.   Roughly speaking, the cost of the organ is $50 for each soundcard , $60.00 =   for Building Blocks, $40 for Pfeifenorgel, Jeux is freeware, say $300 for = the computer, and $25 for a minimal MIDI interface. Then of course there is = your input MIDI interface. This will be the big cost factor, unless you already =   have a console or keyboards with MIDI installed. You will need to find a AWE64 card with 4megs of memory, (or purchase this =   memory from Creative at a totally unreasonable price - $50 I think) . You = can use any kind of SBLive! for the first SBLive! card. The second SBLive!, = if you decide to venture into this quite tricky area, must be a genuine = classic SBLive! Value, or a SBLive! Full, or a EMu APS card (terribly expensive). =   OEM, X-Gamer or MP3 type SBLives will not work as the second card. It took me a few painful months to discover this!!   I believe there are soundfonts out there for theater organs, so you could build a theater organ using the same setup. I have thought about having several different "virtual organs" on the same computer. This would work fine, as long as the soundfont bank configuration remains the same. You = would just load a different Building Blocks structure.   I have managed to make the organ start up automatically, just by turning = on the power. It is necessary to shut down Windows in the usual way, of = course, before switching off the organ.   Many thanks to Paul Mindrup, (general help with Building Blocks and MIDI), =   Paul Swennenhuis, (author of Building Blocks), John McCoy, (author of Jeux =   Soundfont), Andreas Sims, (Author of Pfeifenorgel), Johann Burman, (help with two SBLive! cards), Doug Mc Murray, (who got me started on the whole = thing), Ted Beimess, (Devtronix), and anyone else who helped me on this project.   I plan to write a booklet very soon with full details of how to put one of =   these organs together. It will be for sale at a very reasonable price.   Mick Berg  
(back) Subject: Re: Tallahassee From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:28:15 -0700   There was no cathedral in those days (1950s) (grin) ... the one and only Catholic church was Blessed Sacrament, I think ... big, ugly, and entirely unremarkable, except that it DID have a free-standing altar, which was = VERY unusual for the time.   Cheers,   Bud   Jim Zimmerman wrote:   > Bud wrote regarding the Tallahassee organ scene: > > >; I think the Catholics had a > >Wicks (?), or maybe it was an electronic (hard to tell the > >difference??!!). > > If speaking of St. Thomas More Cathedral, the organ is indeed an elderly > Allen. Quite nice sounding, too. My niece was married there about = three > years ago. The organist was an elderly lady who played a magnificent > wedding service entirely by ear. > > ************* Jim Zimmerman <jrzimmer@purdue.edu> *************** > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Tallahassee From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:52:02 -0500   Will Scarboro can tell you more when he gets back, but the Methodists have traded in their Austin for a really nice 3-manual Casavant - heard Fred Swann do the dedication recital in February. Went to an organ crawl the next day, but didn't get to play it - plan on doing so next time I make it to the capital city.   I'm sure I still have the info on it somewhere if you are interested - = just wanted to contribute to your reminiscing.   Glenda Sutton        
(back) Subject: Seeking Associate Organist at FPC of Chicago From: "Cole Carroll" <CCole@fourthchurch.org> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:07:34 -0500   The Fourth Presbyterian Church of Chicago, 126 E. Chestnut Street, = Chicago, IL 60611-2094. Twenty-five hour associate organist position available = fall 2000. Candidate responsible for accompanying professional and volunteer choirs at three Sunday morning services and two weekly rehearsals. Responsible for playing and conducting Sunday Vespers rehearsal and = service. In addition, this person will accompany occasional concerts, services and funerals. Also responsible for planning and playing numerous weddings each year. 4-manual 126 rank 1971 Aeolian Skinner organ. Salary based upon experience. Send resume, including references and a recent non-returnable recording, to above address c/o John W. W. Sherer, Organist and Director = of Music. Telephone: 312-787-4570. E-mail: fpc@fourthchurch.org.     C. Carroll Cole Arts Administrator Fourth Presbyterian Church 126 East Chestnut Street Chicago, IL 60611-2094 312.787.2729, ext. 252 facsimile: 312.787.4584 ccole@fourthchurch.org <http://www.fourthchurch.org>      
(back) Subject: Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:57:35 EDT   Hi List:   There is a company in San Francisco that retains Red Whetheral as a = Partner. This Company has been consultant to numerous churches with dead. dry acoustics.   In most cases Red can figure a way to bring out the good in a room. He = gave a two hour symposium to the Orange County AGO about four years ago. Red is = not only an acoustician but also an archetect. He has turned many on purpose = dead rooms into live acoustical environments, because music was desired. He is listed as an archetect and an acoustician. He can undo most of the damage done by so-called archetects, and acousticians. Those who wish to promote good music might want to look him up! Just a suggestion! He's getting up in years, = but is wonderful at solving problems, he uses his ears and years of valuable experience!   Regards,   Ron Severin   PS: This is a rejected thread from Piporg-L, and I thought it may do some = good on Pipechat.  
(back) Subject: Re: Acoustics and how organ Builders use them! From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:03:26 EDT   Hi List:   In the old days organ builders used to bring organ pipes into churches and blow them, using their ear to gain knowledge about frequency curves in the building. They'd blow pipes of various pitches high and low while walking around, noting by ear. There was one builder, It may have been Silbermann = who rapped and tapped a big staff on the stone floor, to determine frequency response, = before starting to build the organ. Perhaps even bringing singers with him to = hear the response of the room to the human voice. They'd note down in a note = book what they heard.   This method would be almost impossible today, with carpet, pillows, wool = lined walls and ceilings, I guess that's why nobody mentioned it. Some churches = have become parlors of comfort. Worship and music are secondary issues perhaps.   Regards,   Ron Severin   PS Another rejected issue brought up on Piporg-L, and I include it here = for your interest.  
(back) Subject: Re: Sequencer Use From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:13:16 EDT   Hi N. Jones and List:   Would an MDF-3 user be acceptable by Yamaha? I play a pipe organ equiped = with sample modules by Ahlborn. The samples all 54 ranks of them can be played = back by the organ through the MDF-3. I can use it to record choir anthems ahead = of time, and play them back during a service, standing beside the console, and be = able to effectively direct the choir.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:25:16 -0700   I hired him to consult yesterday (grin). I'd talked to him about two years = ago, as the result of recommendations from All Saints' Beverly Hills and St. James Wilshire ... I'd heard his name for years, of course.   The PROBLEM was that my Building Committee didn't want him on board during = the DESIGN phase ... so all he can do now is tell them not to carpet the = floors and to seal the ceiling. Any structural acoustical problems we'll have to live = with, or try and modify after the fact.   If the Powers-That-Are at PipARGHH! think acoustics don't concern the = organist, they'd better think again. Sheesh! Designing the choir loft and the = speaker chambers was simple by comparison ... MOST of the time I've spent with the Building Committee has been about acoustics.   Our brain-dead architect (I don't think that's too strong ... he didn't = know what an "apse" was, or why we'd want one) wanted to damp everything down to = zero and then add the reverb back in electronically with a $20K sound system ... = typical! We had to explain to him that no, we DON'T need monitor speakers on the = "podium"; nor do we need 115v plugs in the chancel floor for electric gee-tars = (grin).   Oh, and he said we'd not "want" a pipe organ ... he didn't elaborate; I = didn't give him time. I told the Rector later that if I want a steam calliope up = there, the ARCHITECT'S job is is to see that the water lines are run for the = boiler ... whether or not we have a pipe organ is none of his business, beyond = providing the 14'' floor joists to support it.   Cheers,   Bud   P.S. - Wetherill's company is now a conglomerate, but "Paoletti and = Associates" will still get you the phone number.   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:   > Hi List: > > There is a company in San Francisco that retains Red Wetherill as a = Partner. > This Company has been consultant to numerous churches with dead. dry > acoustics. > > In most cases Red can figure a way to bring out the good in a room. He = gave a > two hour symposium to the Orange County AGO about four years ago. Red is = not > only an acoustician but also an archetect. He has turned many on purpose = dead > rooms into live acoustical environments, because music was desired. He = is > listed as an archetect and an acoustician. He can undo most of the = damage > done by so-called archetects, and acousticians. Those who wish to = promote > good music > might want to look him up! Just a suggestion! He's getting up in years, = but is > wonderful at solving problems, he uses his ears and years of valuable > experience! > > Regards, > > Ron Severin > > PS: This is a rejected thread from Piporg-L, and I thought it may do = some good > on Pipechat. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:09:12   At 01:57 AM 8/17/2000 EDT, you wrote: >PS: This is a rejected thread from Piporg-L, and I thought it may do some good >on Pipechat.<snip>   Yes, they ARE a little goofy over there, eh?   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:09:16   At 11:25 PM 8/16/2000 -0700, you wrote: >The PROBLEM was that my Building Committee didn't want him on board = during the >DESIGN phase ... so all he can do now is tell them not to carpet the floors and to >seal the ceiling.<snip>   What Bud means to say here is that their building committee consists of professional hemerroid inspectors.   >Any structural acoustical problems we'll have to live with, or >try and modify after the fact.<snip>   SOOOOOOOOO stupid.   >If the Powers-That-Are at PipARGHH! think acoustics don't concern the organist, >they'd better think again. Sheesh! Designing the choir loft and the = speaker >chambers was simple by comparison ... MOST of the time I've spent with = the >Building Committee has been about acoustics.<snip>   As well you should...quite obviously your architect is more at home building cheesy shopping centers and other throwaway garbage.   >Our brain-dead architect (I don't think that's too strong ... he didn't know what >an "apse" was<snip>   As dumb as this one sounds, you could probably tell him it's what his sits on while he doodles unsuccessful architectural designs out on his 'puter.   ....or why we'd want one) wanted to damp everything down to zero and >then add the reverb back in electronically with a $20K sound system ... typical!<snip>   WHAT??? Someone call the AIA...report this moron for malpractice.   Obviously, St. Matt's-by-the-Burger-King is headed for another "Titanic-in-the-making" that'll make Le Grand Hammond seem pleasurable. Someone get some Panaflexes and call Cameron! The sequel will be in the can if THIS thing goes up. FIX acoustical mistakes BEFORE they're built...NOT after. Someone needs to fire this moron before he comes up with yet another useless, formless, soundless montrosity. As for that "other" list...well, we KNOW what their problem is!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Red Whetheral and acoustics From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 03:41:11 EDT   Hi Bob:   Thanks for your kind words. They really are appreciated. I got tossed = because of a dispute with Seb. Gluck. I may have gone too far, but several Piporg-l ers =   wrote to me saying are you going to let him get away with that! Against my better judge- ment I responded, and got clobbered. I think the guy is condescening, = looking down his nose at the "rest" of us. He has even offered to sue me. I apologized to him and sent a copy to David Kelzenburg. I think that should be = sufficient! It was really hard to do especially when I felt I was in the right. I haven't = heard from either of them since, and I know they received my apology.   I guess it takes all kinds, so I moved my tent to new territory. I hope it =   works better over here.   <Yes, they ARE a little goofy over there, eh?>   It would be rather just to build upon the 201 members here, rather than = try to make sense with 1160 over there.   Your knowledge of the emerging E org. especially the Hammond astounds me. Where did you learn all of that? What a treasure you really are?! I've come to really know the Hammond a lot better since reading your posts. I wonder who will buy the G 100 in Canada. Bud in Newport Beach, CA has to play one, and it doesn't sound too bad. It's not the instrument the G 100 is. I paid him a courtesy visit on Tuesday, he really is a walking library of neat stories about churches and musicians, he has known. His health isn't good, but he hangs in there. He really is a collector of old Catholic Music. He loves it, and is puting the English words to them to = use at his St. Matthews Traditional Episcopal Church. He's a really fine = fellow.   Regards,   Ron Severin   PS How does one hand pump a Hammond? :) In case the power fails. A joke = for tracker folk! Don't some of them give you a royal pain?    
(back) Subject: Re: Red Wetherill, Paoletti and Associates, and acoustics From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:00:23 EDT   Hi Bud:   Thanks again for being a good friend. Yes, Red Whetherill should have been = on your building project from the beginning. I heard him speak during a two hour symposium for the Orange County AGO about four years ago. What a presentation he = gave! He is pure gold, repleate with war stories. I love war stories as they get = to the heart of the matter very quickly. I really take an interest in them too, as = that's where the real learning takes place. I think some of my remarks offended some of our =   more prominent ivory knobbers. Too bad, some of them are rather stuffy. I like Desert Bob because he'll stand there and tells it like it really is. His = knowledge of the E org and it's development is really fascinating. I'll bet he collects = spec. diagrams of all the Hammonds ever made, and can pull them out to show you.   Well, it's after midnight and I'm off to the land of nod.   Regards,   Ron Severin