PipeChat Digest #1551 - Tuesday, August 8, 2000
 
Re: old electronic organs
  by "Stephen Ohmer" <knopfregal@yahoo.com>
Re: music binding (X-posted)
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Gamble's tape
  by <RSiegel920@aol.com>
Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Fw: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Hammond Organ FTC Case
  by <MUSCUR@aol.com>
Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days.
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Hammond Organ FTC Case
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Fw: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
AGO Members Recital--GnvFl
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days.
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days.
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ?
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: old electronic organs From: "Stephen Ohmer" <knopfregal@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:28:58 -0700 (PDT)     --- Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> wrote: > At 06:16 PM 8/6/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Wave-Form? Short Wave? Permanent > >Wave? Something like that ...<snip>   perhaps the Multi-Wave form?     Terry Charles....where are you - you can answer this one!   SteveO   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: music binding (X-posted) From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 07:13:41 -0500   At 1:17 AM -0500 8/7/00, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: >The Gamble Hinged Music Company was bought by Carl Fischer; back before = they >closed the retail operation in Chicago, I visited the store occasionally, >and they had the tape for sale in the store so you could do your own. = When >I saw the tape, it was pre sewn, and consisted of two, three, or four (as = I >recall) layers of a cloth tape product with an adhesive on one side, = which >would handle eight, twelve, or sixteen page octavo.   It is now called Gamble Music Company and still exists in Chicago. I recently bought music file boxes from them. They do have a web site: http://www.gamblemusic.com and an 800 number - 800-621-4290   Their catalogue lists "Music Hinge Tape" with 2, 4, 6 and 8-leaf configurations.   Hope this helps.   David    
(back) Subject: Re: Gamble's tape From: <RSiegel920@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 09:11:54 EDT   The tape is still available directly from Gambles (NOT bought out by Carl Fischer to my knowledge- they just moved to a large new location west of = the loop.) They sell the 2,4, 6, and 8 leave tape. Unfortunately they claim no =   knowledge as to what happened to the "miracle machine" which applied the = tape and bound scores. I think it disappeared from their Wabash Ave. store 15 = or 20 years ago. Their current web site is www.gamblemusic.com. Their toll = free # is 1-800-621-4290. Hope this helps regards R. J. Siegel  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:29:32 -0400   > From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> > Subject: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? > > First, we > must remember the times...the mid 1930's, when electronic instruments = were > completely unheard of , save for Thaddeus Cahill's "Telharmonium", which > delivered "electric" music to peoples' homes and businesses via private > line telephone lines.   And perhaps the Theramin?   Thanks, Bob, for a VERY informative dissertation.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:48:57 +0800   You are probably right there. However it would need valves for all the amplifiers and preamps in those days. I played one of the electrostatic = reed Wurlies a few times in a local church. They weren't bad as far as el. = organs were concerned in those days. Bob.   VEAGUE wrote:   > The Everet was an amplified reed instrument which WurliTzer bought-out = and > cheapened it from there. I be wrong? > > Rick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? > > > Granted, but that is not what he said. He said completely unheard of. = I > thought the > > Everett was of about the same time as the Hammond. From what I can > remember it was a > > completely unwieldy instrument having dozens of radio valves in it = with > the consequent > > heat problem but maybe I am wrong there. > > Bob . > > > > quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > > > > > Ah, the "Rangertone", wasn't it? But I only know it from books ... = I've > never seen > > > one. > > > > > > Welte as in the pipe-organ builder? > > > > > > DesertBob is probably correct in a practical sense ... Hammond was > probably the first > > > commercially-successful pipeless electro-mechanical organ to enter = the > mass market > > > ... wasn't the Everett Orgatron slightly later? And TECHNICALLY it = was a > reed organ. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Bud > > > > > > Bob Elms wrote: > > > > > > > Desert Bob is not correct here. My reference gives the following > information: > > > > > > > > The first electric organ was developed by a Russian physicist in = the > USA in early > > > > 1920s. It used spinning disks and photo-electric cells and had two > manuals but no > > > > pedals. He named the instrunment "The Photonie". He usd two banks = of > stops, one > > > > to produce the fundamental tone and insert harmonics, and the = other > to allow > > > > chords to be played by depression a single note after the fashion = of > the piano > > > > accordeon. This instrument was followed by the "Phototone" built = by > Edwin Welte, > > > > a German in the USA, who used transparent disks with the desired = wave > form > > > > printed on the disk. > > > > A third man, Major Ranger built an electronic organ in the early = 30s, > again in > > > > the USA using a system of tuning forks set in vibration = electrically. > > > > Laurens Hammond followed in 1935, but he was far from the first. > > > > Bob E. > > > > > > > > > must remember the times...the mid 1930's, when electronic > instruments were > > > > > completely unheard of , > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Click here for Free Video!! > > http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:55:12 +0800   Picayune? Not in my vocab., Bob. Do tell!   You are saying that an electronic organ was developed in 1897????? What = means of generating and amplifying sound electronically would have been = possible in 1897? Those were the days of spark transmitters and NO vacuum tubes.You astonish me. If it was not electronic then the information and the date = are irrelevant.   As for the rest of your post you may be correct. I got my information and = the dates from a publication I have here. The writer may have been incorrect = in his information. I have no way of telling. And, incidentally, I did not = claim that those early instruments were practical or that they were commercial propositions, only that they were developed. Bob E.       Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 08:42 AM 8/7/2000 +0800, you wrote: > >He said completely unheard of.<snip> > > Unheard, as in by using one's ears. Surely, reader READ about such > developments, but never HEARD one. Sorry for the semantics faux pas. > > >I thought the > >Everett was of about the same time as the Hammond.<snip> > > Wrong...1938. > > >From what I can remember it was a > >completely unwieldy instrument having dozens of radio valves in it with > the consequent > >heat problem but maybe I am wrong there.<snip> > > You are describing the Compton Melotone to a tee. The Orgatron was also > QUITE unwieldy (half a ton for ten ranks), and was known to collapse = many > floors of houses. It also did contain more "valves" in it than did the > two-tube Hammond, especially in the ten rank configuration, but these > numbers paled when compared to many e-orgs of the '50s, many of which > contained hundreds of tubes. Indeed, a large Allen of the time was = known > to heat the choir loft quite nicely in winter! > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond Organ FTC Case From: <MUSCUR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:10:12 EDT   A recent thread covers:   > famous FTC case, and Hammond won, not lost.   I thought I'd contribute a first person account from a participant. One = of my past teachers, Dr. C. A. J. Parmentier (of the Roxy, N.Y. 3-organists = at 3-consoles fame) told me that he was hired by the Hammond Co. to play a Hammond organ at the lunch location of the Federal judges hearing the = case. He said he knew they were going to win after one of the judges leaned over = to him upon exiting one day near to the end of trail and said, "Sounds like = an organ to me."   Dennis James   House Organist for Paramount Theatre, Seattle / El Capitan Theatre, = Hollywood / Symphony Hall, San Diego and Silent Film Organist: Stanford Theatre, = Palo Alto  
(back) Subject: Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days. From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:28:31 EDT   Dear Desert Bob:   When you played the organ on Army posts, were there Army Chapel Hymnals still around from the 1940's? An acquaintance of some 38 years ago had = one. He's deceased now, so I have no way of obtaining his. It unfortuneately probably went into the trash after his death. His name was Emerson Trent and was a voice teacher of sorts, and lived near Downey, CA. He played on Army posts too during the 40's. Would you have such a book in your collection? I know I = keep old hymnals that I come across. You never know when you'll need something out of one. = His was the Catholic version.   Sincerely yours,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:54:19   At 10:55 PM 8/7/2000 +0800, you wrote: >You are saying that an electronic organ was developed in 1897?????<snip>   ELECTRIC.   >What means >of generating and amplifying sound electronically would have been = possible >in 1897?<snip>   It was a huge version of the Hammond Organ, to be concise. It used monsterous motor-driven alternators of iron core toothed "tonewheels". Of course, there were no valve amplifiers in those days, so all the power needed to get the "music" over the telephone lines to subscribers' houses had to be produced in the alternators themselves. The machinery to do all this occupied a two story building, and closely resembled the interior of = a telephone central office.   If one peruses the Cahill patents at any length, one sees how Hammond simply lifted Cahill's basic design, miniaturized it, and made up for the lack of sheer size needed for alternators to produce such power by using valve amplifiers. One thing Hammond did not buy, however, was Cahill's wierdness for "just intonation". The original Cahill Telharmonium had a console of two HUGE manuals, and the tones generated by the alternators were of Just Intonation. There was a set of keys for practically every = key signature! You see, Cahill was the inventor of what became the "drawbar system", but he knew that if the Telharmonium was built to Equal Temperament, then the "harmonics", added by rheostats, would be out of tune. So, rather than compromise, he came up with this cumbersome system whereby the players he hired had to deal with these massive manuals, and change positions for different keys! Hammond, having his eye on price and bottom line, would have none of this, and compromised, not only by having "out of tune" harmonics, but cheating the Equal Temperament scale = somewhat, coming up with something I call "Ham-burger Temperament", which is a more than gentle poke at those TrackerBackers who favor silly "retro-fad" temperaments in modern pipe organs.   The reason Hammond couldn't deliver a tonewheel generator that was dead on Equal Temperament was simply a matter of economics, as well as = mathematical and physical reality. You can only have so many different combinations of same-sized gears driving same-sized wheels that had same-sized teeth, and the Hammond design got as close as they could without altering the design to include parts of varying dimensions. The "Ham-burger" Temperament varies about .7 cent from ET at worst case, but it's enough to "color" the resulting tone to make it instantly identifiable by the learned ear.   Also, you should be aware that, although the "valve" didn't really show up until 1911, there were indeed "amplifiers" of sorts existing prior to the turn of the century, most of them being acoustic or mechanically coupled affairs. The use of transformers for voltage amplification also predated the valve be a few years. Robert Hope-Jones, pipe organ innovator and tonal renegade, held many British patents for early acoustic and = mechanical telephone amplifiers.   >You astonish me.<snip>   I do that to a lot of people.   >If it was not electronic then the information and the date are irrelevant.<snip>   Uh uh uh! Who said anything about "electronic"? The Hammond wasn't an "electronic" organ by any means, and was in fact known as an "electric", probably more correctly an "electromagnetic" organ, as was the Cahill. When speaking of "pipeless" organs, most are divided into catagories such as "electric" (Hammond, Minnesota Mastersonic), "electrostatic" (Compton, Everett and Wurlitzer Orgatron, Trautrium, Electro-Voice), "photoelectric" (Welte, and that Russian guy [who I also think invented the Theramin, but I'm not sure]; Baldwin, Optigan), and of course, everything today that's known as "digital".   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond Organ FTC Case From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:04:34   At 12:10 PM 8/7/2000 EDT, you wrote: >I thought I'd contribute a first person account from a participant. One = of >my past teachers, Dr. C. A. J. Parmentier (of the Roxy, N.Y. 3-organists = at >3-consoles fame) told me that he was hired by the Hammond Co. to play a >Hammond organ at the lunch location of the Federal judges hearing the case.<snip>   Wow..."Cass" was in on it too! The more that comes out over time = regarding the FTC trial, the more the AGO's and builders' contention that Hammond "front-loaded" the case in their favor seem true afterall. Of course, Porter Heaps was already on the Hammond payroll, and was accused of registering the Rockefeller Chapel Skinner using stopped flute registrations that favored and flattered the Hammond. Now, we find that Hammond hired "Cass" Parmentier to play a Hammond while the judges had = lunch!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:13:12 EDT   Dear Ray:   Just Look on the Piporg-L home page, click on Pipe Organ Builders and = Related Services. Scroll down to the bottom of the listings of builders, and the organ trader is near the bottom. Optigan can be found by writing Optigan in your = search and go.   I hope this helps.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days. From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:31:24   At 01:28 PM 8/7/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Dear Desert Bob: > >When you played the organ on Army posts, were there Army Chapel Hymnals >still around from the 1940's?<snip>   Not hardly! The old hymnal of the war era was gone by the time I played for the Air Farce. In fact, the chapels at March Field used "The People's Mass Book", which most parishes were using around that time. They did = have copies of the old St. Gregory, but we hardly ever used them.   >Would you have such a book in your collection? I know I keep >old hymnals >that I come across. You never know when you'll need something out of one. His >was >the Catholic version<snip>   Only Cathoic hymnals I've got are the organ accompaniments to St. = Gregory's and St. Basil's, as well as a very worn People's Mass.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: AGO Members Recital--GnvFl From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:05:22 EDT   A Celebration of Early American and Gospel Music presented by Members of the Gainesville-Fl Chapter AGO First Baptist Church -- Casavant 3/44 1975   The Program   Hymn . . . I love to tell the story (all singing) .....hymns played by Bruce Cornely (retired; chorister Holy Trinity = Episcopal)   God Save the Queen . . . John Knowles Paine There's Not a Friend Like the Lowly Jesus . . . Virgil Thomson (from Variations on4 Sunday School Hymns) .....played by LeRoy McKinney (organist, 1st UMC)   Prelude on "Jesus Saves" ... Sharon Yang Prelude on "The Love of God" . . . Sharon Yang .....played by Sharon Yang (organist, Abiding Savior Lutheran)   Hymn . . . He Keeps Me Singing   Softly and Tenderly, Jesus is Calling . . . Will Thompson I Love to Tell the Story . . . William T. Fischer .....played by Bert Kinzey (retired; chorister Holy Trinity)   Sweet, Sweet Spirit . . . Doris Akers (arr. Frances Conrad) Lead Me, Guide Me . . . Doris Akers (arr. Frances Conrad) .....Frances Shanks, soloist; Frances Conrad, pianist   Amazing Grace . . . Herbert Colvin Wondrous Love . . . Cathy DeRousse .....played by Alice Basdekian (organist, Parkview Baptist)   Hymn . . . He Leadeth Me   Thou Man of Grief Remember Me . . . Gardner Read (from Eight Preludes on Southern Hymn Tunes) .....played by Meghann Wilhoite (student)   Hymn . . . Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing   How Firm a Foundation . . . M. Burckhart Simple Gifts (traditional) ... Wil Winter, french horn Shall We Gather at the River . . . M. Burckhart .....played by Lorraine Amick (assist. organist, Holy Trinity Episcopal)   Postlude on Two Spirituals . . . Charles Callahan Go Down Mosts & I Want to be Ready .....played by James Kohler (organist, Wesley UMC)   =3D=3D=3D=3D The Organ GREAT Quintaden 16 Principal 8 Bordun 8 Octave 4 Spitzflote 4 Sesquialtera 2-2/3 Flachflote 2 Mixture IV 1-1/3 Chimes   POSITIVE Fernflote 8 Gedackt 8 Prinzipal 4 Koppelflote 4 Octave 2 Quintflote 1-1/3 Scharf III 2/3 Krummhorn 8 Tremulant   SWELL Gemshorn 8 Rohrflote 8 Vox Coelestes 8 G Spitzprinzipal 4 Nachthorn 4 Waldflote 2 Gross Mixture IV 2 Fagott 16 Oboe 8 Tremulant   PEDAL Subbass 16 Quintaden 16 gr Rohrbass 16 sw Prinzipal 8 Gedackt Pommer 8 Octave 4 Mixture IV 2 Posaune 16 Fagott 16 sw Trompete 8   This is really a wonderful instrument. I had never heard it played in recital before and was impressed by the beauty and individuality of the = flute stops, ranging from the very broad and solid sound of the Great Bordun 8 = to the delicacy of the bottom octaves of the Swell Waldflote 2. Right in the =   middle is the exquisitely lovely Koppelflote 4. Especially unique is the tapered Fernflote on the Positive which is like a very sexy Erzahler, = being a bit broader and more colourful; when combined with the Gedackt this is a wonderful modern equivalent of the Melodia-Dulciana magic of olde! The very warm principals (8 4 Great, 4 2 Pos, 4 Sw) gives the organ the impression of size beyond what is there. The mixtures are surprisingly gentle, especially considering the carpet was added after the organ was finished. The only part of the organ that really does not succeed is the =   reed chorus, which is decidely Germanic and needs a warmer acoustic; however, typically, the Krummhorn manages to overcome these obstacles. Although the pedal division is on the light side, which is typical of the period; there really isn't much that can be done since the room is so = "soft". All in all, however, this organ is a joy not only to play, but to listen = to.   One unfortunate matter which caused the program to go way over time = (lasting 1-1/2 hous, which really isn't bad, and I was not conscious of the time) = was the time wasted with piston setting. Next time, I will plan so that = there are pieces using the piano and other instruments to masque this = unfortunate dependence! What was especially irritating was that the piston changes seemed to make little difference in the sound. One young player = actually declined participating in the recital because the organ did not have = enough pistons and wasn't large enough... !         Bruce Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles visit the Cornely pack at Holwling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days. From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:07:42 EDT   I have a small red one at home, the exact title of which escapes me, = something like Field Hymnal. Covers all the bases -- RC, prot, Jewish. = Can't remember where I picked it up, but it's a little gem in its own way. = Haven't ever run across another copy. Dudel  
(back) Subject: Re: Old Hymnals from the Army days. From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 18:11:40 EDT   Dear Bob:   Thanks, I have those too. DudelK has one and maybe I can get him to copy = some of the Catholic things for me. There are some real gems in there. You and = I are close to the same age, in fact you are probably younger. 1942 for me!   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 08:29:38 +0800   I assume you really aren't kdding so my only comment would be - you call = THAT an electric ORGAN? Bob E.   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > It was a huge version of the Hammond Organ, to be concise. It used > monsterous motor-driven alternators of iron core toothed "tonewheels". = Of > course, there were no valve amplifiers in those days, so all the power > needed to get the "music" over the telephone lines to subscribers' = houses > had to be produced in the alternators themselves. The machinery to do = all > this occupied a two story building, and closely resembled the interior = of a > telephone central office. >    
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond and the FTC, was organs ? Piano ? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:06:46   At 08:29 AM 8/8/2000 +0800, you wrote: >I assume you really aren't kdding so my only comment would be - you call THAT an >electric ORGAN?<snip>   Yup! Sure is! Check it out...fascinating.   dB