PipeChat Digest #1569 - Wednesday, August 23, 2000
 
Re: PC Organ Stoplist Advice (Long!)(REPLY)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: PC Organ Stoplist Advice (Long!)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Felix Hell appearance (x-posted)
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
cruise ship organ
  by "G. Jenista" <hiplain@flash.net>
Re: Albert Schweitzer perspective/Bach playing
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Schweitzer, Bach, Dupr=E9, Franck and   recorded sound
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - Where is it???
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
PianoDisc
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Re: Fw: KSTL studio Wurlitzer
  by <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - Where is it???
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: PianoDisc
  by "Sam Vause \(@Home\)" <vause@home.com>
Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - more
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ
  by "Mark" <obc@knickelbein.com>
Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ
  by "Paul F. Stapel" <pstapel@stny.rr.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: PC Organ Stoplist Advice (Long!)(REPLY) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:22:42 EDT   Hi Mick:   I agree with most of what Bob Scarbourough suggests, Violone 16' in the = pedal is very useful as a softer Principal there.   The Swell Salicet 4' should be a Geigen Octave 4' the Sesquialtera II transfered to the Great to play against the Krumhorn 8' in the choir, and as Bob = suggests a Plein Jeu III or IV on the Swell. The Bourdon 16' belongs on the Great for =   gravity. If a 16' on the Swell probably should be a string to balance the Great and = is useful as a bottom to the Salicional 8' and Celeste, rather than going to a sub coupler. A TC 16' would work well and you could borrow it without upsetting the = apple cart. Bob suggests a 16' reed on the Swell, I wholly agree! You'll be glad = later. Regal as a color reed probably belongs on the Choir.   Follow Bob's suggestion about the Larigot, it belongs in the Choir. The = Great would benefit from a Harmonique Flute 8' the Viola da Gamba now in the choir and = a Bourdon 8' possibly from the 16' Bourdon. It offers the French Fonds recommendation and why not do it that way? The Hohl Flute and Celeste 8' = now in the Swell would work beautifully in the choir for accomaniment purposes. = Lose the Dopple Flute and Hohl Flute on the Great. Supply a Principal Quint on = the Great as Bob suggests, he knows what he's talking about. I also like his Erzahler suggestion for the choir instead of the Flute and Celeste. The choir could =   use a mixture, a Cymbal III 1', 2/3', 1/2' breaking back 3 or 4 times. A Coppel Flute 4' and a Block Flute 2'. Lose the Melodia, for a choir small scale Principal, =   VDG moved, lose the VDG Celeste, also the Flute Dolce 4' leave the 2 2/3 and 1 = 3/5 where it is, lose the 2' Koppel idea.   Follow what Bob suggests about the Echo. You need a Trem there for the = Vox, a good strong deep one. You asked! The difference between a collection of stops and a truely great instrument is where you mate the stops by division to = begin with. Functionality is everything, and the liturature dictates or suggests =   it. If in doubt always look at how the liturature benefits from this or that = combination of stops.   Regards,   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: PC Organ Stoplist Advice (Long!) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:55:58 -0700       MickBerg@aol.com wrote:   > I know how much you folks like to design organs for people, so I would = like > your advice on what changes I should make to my PC organ. This will = involve > getting new engraved drawknob heads from Klann, and not just clicking a = mouse > a few times, so I would like to make the right decisions.   > Pedal: Untersatz 32', Bombarde 16', Posaune 16', Lieblich gedackt 16' , > Bourdon 16', Open Diapason 16' > Tromba 8', Bourdon 8', Principal 8', Nachthorn 4', Octave 4', Mixture. > Sw.-Ped 8',4', Gt. -Ped 8', Ch.-Ped 8'.   I suggest:     PEDAL   32' Untersatz 16' Open Diapason (metal) 16' Violone 16' Bourdon [16' Something Softer With Some Definition, a Dulciana, perhaps] 10 2/3' Open Quint (to result with 16' Open Diapason) 8' Octave [8' 'Cello] [8' Open Flute] 8' Stopped Flute 4' Choral Bass [4' Flute] 2' Mixture III or V ranks ... the octave rank is on the top that way 16' Trombone 8' Trumpet [4' Reed of some description for canti fermi]       > > > Swell: Bourdon 16', Trompette 8' , Oboe 8', Regal 8', Diapason 8', = Hohl > Flute 8', Flute Celeste 8', Voix Celeste 8', Salicional 8', Trompette = 4', > Rohr Flute 4', Salicet 4', Flautino 2', Sesquialtera II. Uni Off, = Sw.4', Sw. > 16', Ch-Sw 8'.   SWELL   16' Quintadena or Contra Salicional 8' Diapason 8' Open or Harmonic Flute 8' Salicional (I prefer a wider-scale Viola) 8' Stopped Flute 8' Vox Celeste II ranks (I prefer a separate, softer unison rank, rather = than using the Salicional/Viola) 4' Octave 4' Flute 2' Flautino 2' Mixture III, IV or V ranks 16' Bassoon 8' Trompette 8' Oboe 4' Clarion   > > > Great: Tuba 8', Open Diapason 8', Hohl Flute 8', Doppel Flute 8', = English > Diapason 8', Clarion 4', Octave 4', Harmonic Flute 4', Super Octave 2', > Larigot 1-1/3', Mixture IV, Chimes. Uni Off, Gt 4', Sw.- Gt. 16', 8', = 4', > Ch.-Gt. 16', 8', 4', Echo-Gt. 16', 8', 4'.   GREAT   16' Bourdon or Double Open Diapason 8' Open Diapason 8' Doppel Flute 8' Violoncello 8' Chimney Flute [8' Gemshorn] 4' Octave 4' Harmonic Flute [2 2/3' Twelfth - not essential, but nice for French music] 2' Fifteenth 1 1/3' Mixture IV 8' Something Other Than A Tuba - a compromise chorus Trumpet   > > > Choir; Krummhorn 8', Melodia 8', Viola Da Gamba 8', Voix Celeste 8', = Flauto > Dolce 4', Geigen Principal 4', Nazard 2-2/3', Koppel Flute 2', Terz = 1-3/5', > Sifflote 1', Harp 8'. Echo-Ch. 16', 8'.   CHOIR   8' Metal Gedeckt 8' Erzahler 8' Erzahler Celeste 4' Principal 4' Open or Chimney Flute (NOT a Flauto Dolce) 2 2/3' Nazard 2' Octave 2' Block Flute - you need this for the "decomposed" Cornet 1 3/5' Tierce 1 1/3' Larigot 1' - I prefer this to be a small-scale Principal ... it seems more useful = for coloring the Cornet or the Cromorne, for some reason 1' Mixture III 8' CROMORNE - German bees-in-bedpans Krumhorns are USELESS (grin) 8' Tuba - so you can play it against full Swell + Great ... veddy English = (grin)   > > > Echo (floating, couples to Great and Choir at 16, 8, and 4) Vox Humana = 8', > Echo Flute 8', Muted Violin 8', Fern Flute 4', Gemshorn 4' .   ECHO   8' Echo Flute 8' Muted Violin 8' Vox Angelica 4' Fern Flute 4' Violina 8' Vox Humana   > > > I've already decided to dump the Tremulant on the Great and Echo   You need to be able to shake the Vox.   > . So there > are a couple of places where new stops could be added. > > Between the Jeux and Pfeifenorgel Soundfonts, I think I could come up = with > any stop one might ask for. Some of the samples are not great, usually > suffering from unrealistic attack characteristics. > I would appreciate any comments anyone might like to make, except "throw = it > away and buy a Flentrop!" > > Thanks in advance, > Mick Berg. >   You NEED an 8' string and open and stopped flutes in each division (if = possible) for the "four fonds" sound in French music. One deficiency of this list as = I've drawn it is that you only have ONE Cornet - on the Choir. You really need = TWO to be able to play Dialogues, etc. You might put a III rank on the Swell or Great.   I'M back to looking at Allens again ... sigh.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Felix Hell appearance (x-posted) From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:02:44 -0400   Here is the program. It is a long and heavy program for the main festival recital on Sunday, September 24. (I gather that this is for the "Basically Bach" series at St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Manhattan)   V. Luebeck - Prelude C Major - Prelude C Minor   D. Buxtehude Prelude D Major, BuxWV 139   Johann Sebastion SBach:   Fantasy G Major, BWV 572 Fantasy "Komm Heilger Geist, Herre Gott", BWV 651 Prelude and Fuge D Major, BWV 532 Toccata and Fugue F Major, BWV 540 Trio D Minor BWV 583 Fantasy and Fuge G Minor, BWV 542 "Schm=FCcke dich o liebe Seele" (Leipziger Choral)   Mendelssohn: Sonata No. 2, op. 65 - Grave - Adagio - Allegro maestoso e vivace - Fuga (Allegro moderato)   Widor: Symphony No. 5, op. 42 - 4th movement: Adagio - 5th movement: Toccata     BTW: Felix will be in Angwin, CA, next March.      
(back) Subject: cruise ship organ From: "G. Jenista" <hiplain@flash.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:09:20 -0500   "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> wrote: >Well, I just opened my latest copy of Het Pierement (Dutch street organ >magazine from Kring van Draaiorgelvrienden) when >lo-and-behold.....here's a pix of the organ on the cruise ship MS >Zaandam.   My parents took a cruise on the Zaandam earlier this year, and saw & heard the instrument in person. There were drawings of the instrument in the official cruise book, and a very short narrative. The difference from the drawing is that it has a single manual. In spite of its Dutch rococo facade, it's an orchestral or theatre-like organ in tonal design.   George Jenista Fort Worth, Texas  
(back) Subject: Re: Albert Schweitzer perspective/Bach playing From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:29:59 EDT   Hi Robert:   The organ Schweitzer played is really unimportant, but the ethos of = European performance of Bach is usually much more stately than we play him in a dry room acoustically. Dr. Schweitzer was a brilliant renaissance man with = over five earned doctorates. If you block out the sound of the organ on the recording, and just listen to the counterpoint, I think it may temper your thinking. = He was an authentic proposer of the organ reform movement, and was too busy doing charitable work to guide it perhaps the way it should have gone. In fact = he may have been the first to recognise the need for clarity in organ building of =   which he took a very great interest. Give him another go, as we owe him a great deal. Perhaps the reason for the recordings in the first place was to showcase how not to build an organ for this music, in the first place. He often = taught by example. A lot of people just look at the surface, and miss the lesson. = His mind ran very deep. He could have recorded on any organ he wanted, look at it from that angle. Why chose that one? There has to be a good reason.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Schweitzer, Bach, Dupr=E9, Franck and recorded sound From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:13:51   At 03:29 PM 8/22/2000 EDT, you wrote: >If you block out the sound of the organ on the=20 >recording, >and just listen to the counterpoint, I think it may temper your thinking.<snip>   I trust we're speaking of the unfortunate Columbia Schweitzer releases. Scheitzer was QUITE old when these recordings were made, and he was never a professional performer. These facts must be factored in when critiquing his work. He wrote eloquently about the importance of Bach, and did know well the failures of the Hope-Jonesish developments in organ building from 1895 onward. Personally, I find his performance recommendations for Bach to be incorrect on a few fronts, and are more a statement of his opinions on the matter which than any scholarly research into matters of Baroque performance. The Schweitzer-Widor editions of Bach's works have now largely been discarded and supplanted by more musicologically authentic examples, but issues of performance are as difficult to authenticate today as they were in Schweitzer's time. Discussion of his Bach work is coincident with changing thought about Schweitzer's greatness on the whole regarding his work in Africa. Formerly seen as a savior to the "black savages", he is now seen in many quarters, especially in Africa, as another colonizing european christian zealot, bent on destroying native culture. And so it= goes.   Although the playing on the Columbia releases made in the early '50s is ploddingly lugubrious and technically error-ridden, it is quite something to hear the great Herr Doktor playing. One must be thankful for the innovations of magnetic tape and the LP, as they have preserved these offerings in good fidelity, which are required study for anyone serious about the long and varied history of performance of Bach's works. Think of our fortune, indeed, if such technology were available in Bach's own time, and we could here the master play himself! We are blessed that such is the case with composers such as Dupr=E9 and others, as we can get far more accurate accoutings by them performing their own works than we ever could from books published by academic hacks working on conjecture.   Such an example, albeit third generation, is Dupr=E9's famed 1957 performanc= e of Franck's Trois Chorales and Pi=E8ce H=E9ro=EFque. Dupr=E9 was a student = of Guillmant, who in turn had interviewed Franck at great length about issues of interpretation of his works. The Dupr=E9 performance, on the =C6olian-Skinner at St. Thomas' in NYC, is also rife with sloppy registrational changes and some technical faux pas, but gives an aural lineage traceable back to Franck himself, through Guillmant and verified by Piern=E9.   Some huffy academics dismiss audio recording of performances as the "demise of good musicianship", but, in reality, it basically is a threat to their pompous self-importance. One can glean valuable facts from such recordings, if one can ascertain the validity of the performance being auditioned, as one certainly can with the Dupr=E9 sessions in 1957. This prevents certain hacks from "rewriting history", as it were, and helps clear the air about important performance issues. As stated earlier, it is a shame indeed we have no such aural record of Bach's own performances. I'm sure that, faced with the unergonomic, poorly tempered and erractically winded instruments that Bach had at his disposal, we might indeed be somewhat surpirsed indeed by how he performed his own works, vis a vis what some performers today claim to be "authentic"! Whether the school of Lemmens or the modern performance standard of choppy non-legato holds to be the truth will never be known for certain...but I'll side with Lemmens for now, thank you very much.   DeserTBoB   PS: I know this will generate some more personal hate mail from certain "academic hacks of letters" out there who, although considering THIS list to be "beneith them", still manage to get posts from Pipechat all the time. MOST interesting how that happens. Bring it on! Your day of reckoning approacheth.  
(back) Subject: Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - Where is it??? From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:49:14 -0500   The console is in Rubin Frels house in Victoria, Texas. Roy   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 12:17 PM 8/21/2000 -0400, you wrote: > >In Lord & Taylor on Fifth Avenue<snip> > > /sound buzzer.wav > > Wrong. Organ's LONG gone. > > >But Wanamaker was the builder?<snip> > > Wanamaker's had its own in-house organ factory for years, who built the > huge Philadelphia instrument around the nucleus of the Los Angeles Art > Organ from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. The current Wanamaker console > was built in-house by Wanamaker organ technicians, as was much of the = organ > proper. > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: PianoDisc From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:45:45 EDT   This may not be exactly "organic", but maybe it is since a piano is frequently found as a stop on a theatre organ. At any rate, does anyone = know the approximate cost to add a PianoDisc system to an existing piano? If it =   has MIDI capability can the piano then be played from an organ with MIDI = as a "stop"?   Thanks.   Tom  
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: KSTL studio Wurlitzer From: <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:02:38 -0400   List -   I wrote earlier requesting info on organs (particularly TO's) in the Eau = Claire, Wisconsin area. In following this thread I'd like to know if the organ at = the Phipps Center for the Arts in Hudson, WI is open to the public or to = visiting organists?   Enquiring minds (particularly mine) would like to know.....   Tom      
(back) Subject: Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - Where is it??? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:45:15 EDT   Hi Roy:   From What I was told, the mystery of the NYC Wanamaker organ is solved. It = was purchased by Virgil Fox. He used it for an organ in his home. The John = Hayes Hammond museum figured in this in some way. The disposition of most of = this instrument went to Crystal Cathedral, as the Balcony organ of several divisions. Virgil willed it to them to become part of the Hazel Wright organ. Perhaps = Guy Henderson can fill you in on the rest. It originally comprised = aproximately 118 ranks or so, as I was told. It was built in the shops established in the Philadelphia Wanamaker store. I hope this is not hearsay, but fact, as there are a lot = of legends about this famous organ. From all that I can gather this is a true story. = Guy Henderson is the final word on this.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: PianoDisc From: "Sam Vause \(@Home\)" <vause@home.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:15:07 -0700   Roughly $5k. Yes... (Or so I'm told) --sam Sam Vause (Chandler, AZ)   ----- Original Message ----- From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: PianoDisc     This may not be exactly "organic", but maybe it is since a piano is frequently found as a stop on a theatre organ. At any rate, does anyone = know the approximate cost to add a PianoDisc system to an existing piano? If it has MIDI capability can the piano then be played from an organ with MIDI = as a "stop"?   Thanks.   Tom   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: NY Wanamaker Organ - more From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:38:25 EDT   Hi listers--- Heres some more on the NY city Wanamaker store organ from another view. There is a new book out on the history of both organs published within the =   last year, written by Ray Biswanger,,,,the mover-shaker of the Friends of = the Wanamaker Organ society. I dont have my copy in front of me now,,,but its carried by the OHS and is a really well done book, and meticulously researched. The book de-bunks many of the myths that have generated over = the years about both organs, and the de-bunking is done with = facts,,,dates,,,and people's names. The book is slanted heavily to the Philadelphia = organ,,but New York is fairly well documented as well. It must be remembered that Rodman Wanamaker was the driving force behind the organs in both = stores,,and after his death in the early 30's virtually no improvements were made for many many years,,,just maintenance, and Mr. Fleming's chest design was = very very rugged and proved to be long lasting. I have personally observed = chests installed in 1915 and removed in 1999 for rebuilding that were still very much operational. I would encourage anyone interested in the history of these instruments to =   purchase the newly released Wanamaker Organ Book. Regards to all, ---Roc L V Rockafellow  
(back) Subject: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ From: "Mark" <obc@knickelbein.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:48:10 -0500   Hi all-- I'm just interested in exploring and researching options for upgrading = an existing pipe organ. This church organ currently is very basic, no bells = or whistles-- basic flutes and principals on it; 2 manuals & pedal board. = What are there for options to upgrade the organ without completely replacing it (not an option due to money)? Also, is there a ballpark figure on price = you could give for each? I personally am not technically knowledgable about = the organ itself, although I am an organ player. Any websites available to research this topic?   Two thoughts I had-- 1. Adding pipes, adding reeds, etc. 2. I've seen a church that had an organ similar to ours, but later had electronics installed into it-- so it had both pipes and electronic enhancements which was really neat. Is this a cost-effective option? = Where to research?   Thanks in advance for any info!    
(back) Subject: Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:48:26 EDT   Hi Mark:   If you live in So. Cal. I'll let you play the Ahlborn Modules we have installed on our pipe organ. As I told you privately, they are simply marvelous.   Ron  
(back) Subject: Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:01:53 -0700   Mark - the modules at Ron's church sound very good ... I've heard them.   This debate rages periodically. I'm thinking of doing it to upgrade a Hammond/Suzuki because the donor insists that we keep it.   Post the spec of your present organ and let's see where the holes are.   Cheers,   Bud   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:   > Hi Mark: > > If you live in So. Cal. I'll let you play the Ahlborn Modules we have > installed on > our pipe organ. As I told you privately, they are simply marvelous. > > Ron > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ From: "Paul F. Stapel" <pstapel@stny.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:22:26 +0100   Mark you should start by talking with your organ service person, then compare notes with at least two other companies recommended by people on this = list! Make sure to compare apples to apples once you get the gist of the best directions to go!   Electronic upgrades work well if the electronics in your console are compatible.   Subject: Options for Upgrading a Pipe Organ     > Hi all-- > I'm just interested in exploring and researching options for upgrading an > existing pipe organ. This church organ currently is very basic, no = bells or > whistles-- basic flutes and principals on it; 2 manuals & pedal board. What > are there for options to upgrade the organ without completely replacing = it > (not an option due to money)? Also, is there a ballpark figure on price you > could give for each? I personally am not technically knowledgable about the > organ itself, although I am an organ player. Any websites available to > research this topic? > > Two thoughts I had-- > 1. Adding pipes, adding reeds, etc. > 2. I've seen a church that had an organ similar to ours, but later had > electronics installed into it-- so it had both pipes and electronic > enhancements which was really neat. Is this a cost-effective option? Where > to research? > > Thanks in advance for any info! > >