PipeChat Digest #1690 - Tuesday, December 5, 2000
 
Re: I have had it! HYMNS
  by "Noel Jones, A.A.G.O." <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net>
Re: I have had it!
  by <Puppydawgbreath@cs.com>
I have had it!
  by "Maynard Cuppy" <cuppy.maynard@mcleodusa.net>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
RE: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org>
Re: Fw: I have had it!
  by <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net>
RE: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: I have had it!
  by <LLWheels@aol.com>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net>
Re: A Dynamic Duo
  by "Jim" <bald1@prodigy.net>
Re: I have had it!
  by <Puppydawgbreath@cs.com>
Re: Jobs
  by <p.wilson2@juno.com>
Re: I have had it!
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: I have had it! HYMNS From: "Noel Jones, A.A.G.O." <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:16:25 -0500   I've got to agree with John. As long as the choir has had a refresher run or an introductory run through the hymn and they can sing it, introducing the hymn as a new or resurrected hymn from the pulpit is the kiss of death. Change, new hymns?   Warning people about new or not-real-familiar hymns can have the unwanted intent of not-so-subtly informing them that they are considered unable to read music and unable sing along with the organ and choir.   What did the churches in England and Germany do in the recent past when the majority of the congregation could not read or write? > > They should know these hymns... they have been singing them every Advent = for > the last 50 years.... However, they're not sung as often (by virtue of = their > nature) as many other hymns. > > John > Noel Jones, AAGO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Moderator, rodgersorgan@egroups.com www.frogmusic.com/rodgersorgan.html  
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:55:17 -0500   Trinity Lutheran in Lansdale PA has a Director of Music (full-time) and an =   Associate of Music (not sure of the exact title) that is also full-time.   This church boasts of a 5800 member congregation and growing. Four services on a Sunday morning, 15 minutes apart. 10 or 12 choirs. No = choir sings at the 7:15 AM service, but children's and youth choirs rotate the 8:30 and the 9:45. The adult choir sings at the 11:00, and the contemporary adult choir sings at the 8:30.   The services are at 7:15 8:30 9:45 11:00.   All have organ/piano. All but the 7:15 have choral music.   The system seems to work well: DoM plays all of the 7:15. Starts the 8:30, goes to prepare a choir for the 9:45. Associate takes over after = the sermon. DoM starts the 9:45, goes to prepare the choir for the 11:00. Associate plays after the sermon. DoM plays all of the 11:00.   Since DoM is gone by the time the choir sings at the 8:30 and 9:45, it's = up to the Associate to direct and play for whatever choir is on at those = services.   They're like two ships in the night, but it works.... with only 15 minutes =   between services (sometimes less if the service runs over), things need to =   be precise. And they are.   Given that schedule, the two of them MUST get along well, for it's a team effort to get the job done.   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: Re: I have had it! From: <Puppydawgbreath@cs.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:29:43 EST   John, Your message just arrived in my mail. So sorry that you were subjected = to this kind of insensitive behavior. Unfortunately, it is becoming more and =   more prevalent (I was going to say common, but that kind of behavior has ALWAYS been "common").   In a message dated 12/3/00 4:00:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, = DRAWKNOB@aol.com writes:   << After the first verse of that hymn was sung horribly by the = congregation he shouts to me, between verses, to stop and turn to hymn 39 "Joy to the World". = I did and hit the Full Organ piston and played it at break-neck speed. I = was so visibly shaken while doing this that choir members patted me on the = back during my postlude... >>   At least your choir understand and sympathized. However, it is very important, not to mention difficult, to maintain your equilibrium at all times in worship. I say this with full rememberance of times that I have =   "lost it", my favorite being during a postlude when I was playing "Wachet Auf" (possibly one of the reasons I no longer play this piece) and a choirmember was loudly telling a story to some friends while standing = next to the console. I simply stopped playing, looked at her and said loudly, =   "please tell your story outside, I've already heard it and would like to = hear my postlude while I play it."   << What in all that is Holy's name do I do about this BS? >>   I know you don't want to hear this, but there is really nothing you can do =   about this. It's going to happen if that is the way the minister wants to =   behave. A nice intimate session with the minister and the worship and personnel committees might help, but if the minister is PO'd as a result, you're pretty much doomed.   << On top of that, I've got to play for a children's Xmas pageant (which takes the place of worship on Advent III) and I've been ordered to play a prelude/postlude on "This Little Light of Mine", have been asked to write = a RAP to take place of a chant, and JUST today I was told that I have to = play Mallotte's "Lord's Prayer" for all to sing at the same service.... I am = at wit's end and very close to going postal...... >>   The prelude on "This Little Light" might be a chance to show them just how =   rediculous the request is. Do it up the very best you can (even wearing your "Gee Dad! It's a WurliTzer" button), and have a ball with it. = Don't be upset if people like it and are not offended; church people are very difficult to shame. Regarding the RAP.... my approach would be to find someone who does RAP and get them to write it. With any luck every other word will begin with "F" as in most RAP and they won't use it. Just tell them that RAP ain't your thang, and you thought it would be better done be = a pro! Re: the Mallotte -- just play it... it really isn't that bad, and = it pales in comparison to the other stuff on your list.   << Do I quit, threaten to quit, tell the offending parties how messed up =   they are? I'm at the point now of not even giving a piece of coal about = it all... Its just so unreal! Please give me some advice or = support!!!!!!!!! >>   The only definite piece of advice is DON'T threaten to quit. If it's = that bad, go ahead and quit, and leave before Christmas. I can't imagine = another church being upset that you left before what was sure to be a very unholy Christmas. Don't tell anyone how messed-up they are.... they either = don't know or don't care, and will just turn it around and try to make you feel messed-up.   Most likely, this episode is transient, in which case I would suggest = making a list of the positives and the negatives of the job:   Is the salary good? Is the organ good? Do you basically like the = working conditions? Do you basically like the liturgy? etc.   If the salary and organ are good and you really don't want to leave now, = just divorce yourself from the situation and spend as little time on the = premises as possible. Do your job minimally and just be an employee. Find = something else to occupy your freed-up time, possibly something in a continuing education vein. Improve yourself and if you want to look for another job, =   now is the time.   You have my deepest sympathy. Been there, done that, but NO MORE!   Bruce, still in the Beagles Nest with the Baskerbeagles... visit us: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 (aroooooooooO) but working from another computer since mine is in a REALLLY REALLLLY BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD MOOOD!!! (It's gone to the detention center for a couple of weeks)  
(back) Subject: I have had it! From: "Maynard Cuppy" <cuppy.maynard@mcleodusa.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:31:01 -0600   After reading all the postings on this subject, I might as well get in my two-cents' worth. In 41 years of service playing, I've only had 2 ministers interrupt me during a service. One was during the singing of "For All the Saints" (his favorite) that he didn't think I was playing fast enough. At the 1st service he sent the choir director to tell me to speed it up. It took me a while to catch on but when I did I went ballistic. I gave him what he wanted. Second service the tempo was somewhere between vivace and presto (I could still do that in those days) with precisely four beats at the end of each stanza and one pedal note at the beginning of the next for them to finish whatever they were doing and start singing again. No one said a word. He has since been "promoted to glory" (Salvation Army phrase) and I'm still here.   The second was another church in the same town where the minister thought my offertories were too long and would get up as soon as the ushers were finished whether I was finished or not and begin talking. Of course I had to stop. He may have had a point and I'm more sensitive to the length of that particular part of the service. He also has been "promoted" and I'm still here!   Skip to my present position. I've complained about the pastor on this list before. She's the holy roller wannabe who plays geetar. She thought introducing Contemporary Christian Crap (er, music) into the service would build up attendance. So she formed herself a "praise band": 2 geetars, pianer, sometimes a tambourine, and an out-of-tune harmonica. She led the group, even though by her own admission she couldn't read music and had problems with "timing" (rhythm to those of us in the know). It didn't work. She had many other problems which were detrimental to the church, not the least of which was being a control freak, with something of a holier than thou attitude. I finally complained to the moderator of the congregation about a year ago and hinted that I might have to quit. He (being a friend) asked me not to, but to hold on, and hinted that change was in the wind. So I stuck it out, and last spring she suddenly submitted her resignation. She stayed until the end of August. Now she's gone (not "promoted to glory") and I'M STILL HERE!! Have been for 15 years as of last October 13. I kept having the feeling that some of her antics were designed to get me to resign (I'm sure I was holy enough for her); she had already maneuvered the firing of one choir director, and she searched until she found someone she could manipulate, which she proceeded to do. She always had to make sure she was the center of attention at choir rehearsals (yep, she sang in the choir too). All in all, an intolerable situation, but I made up my mind that I was there before she was and planned to be there when she was gone. And so I am.   We're still looking for a pastor, and I've already been asked if I would like to sit in on the interviews. Of course I said yes. And I plan to ask about each candidate's attitude toward liturgy, the lectionary (helps me choose appropriate music) and observance of the liturgical year. ( should help avoid more of those interminable series sermons (Sunday School lessons) the previous minister was so fond of. I also hope they find someone who can control his/her tongue and say that if someone is offended that's their problem. Considering we had 15 people in church yesterday, I'd say it's everybody's problem, but certainly the person with the loose tongue is the one with a problem.   I've gotten off the point. Which is: stick it out if at all possible. Ministers don't last forever. And it certainly helps if you express your feelings to someone with power and say-so in the church, especially if you are on friendly terms with them. You might find they agree with you. I won't kid myself that my brief conversation behind the organ console one Sunday had anything to do with her resignation, but who knows...?   Good luck and hang in there (all of you).   Maynard Titulaire :) First Baptist Church Iowa City IA    
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: <JKVDP@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:35:36 EST   In a message dated 00-12-04 18:03:37 EST, pnst@earthlink.net writes:   >This church boasts of a 5800 member congregation and growing. Four >services on a Sunday morning, 15 minutes apart. 10 or 12 choirs. No = choir >sings at the 7:15 AM service, but children's and youth choirs rotate the >8:30 and the 9:45. The adult choir sings at the 11:00, and the >contemporary adult choir sings at the 8:30. > >The services are at >7:15 >8:30 >9:45 >11:00.   I'm really curious. Does anyone know the average attendance at these = various services?   Jerry in Seattle    
(back) Subject: RE: A Dynamic Duo From: "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:20:46 -0800   My full time non music job is in management at the largest UMC (so I'm = told) of the California/Nevada conference. They have 2500 members and an additional 2500 "constituents," active, contributing folks who choose not = to "join." They have 3 services every Sunday with an average atendance of = 1200 (our Nave seats about 500.)   They are keeping the regular schedule on Christmas Eve and having the = usual 5 services (beginning about 3 p.m.) on Christmas Eve. I understand that = the 5, 7, and 11 p.m. services are all full, with just the early and 9 p.m. = not being full.   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of JKVDP@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:36 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo     In a message dated 00-12-04 18:03:37 EST, pnst@earthlink.net writes:   >This church boasts of a 5800 member congregation and growing. Four >services on a Sunday morning, 15 minutes apart. 10 or 12 choirs. No = choir >sings at the 7:15 AM service, but children's and youth choirs rotate the >8:30 and the 9:45. The adult choir sings at the 11:00, and the >contemporary adult choir sings at the 8:30. > >The services are at >7:15 >8:30 >9:45 >11:00.   I'm really curious. Does anyone know the average attendance at these various services?   Jerry in Seattle     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: I have had it! From: <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:27:50 -0500 (EST)   Regarding Malotte's "Lord's Prayer", I have been using this as our prayer response now for several advents (we sing it each week in advent following pastor's prayer). Yesterday, I introduced it even to our Informal service (i.e., contemporary) and they sang it beautifully.   I have found it to be so "unifying" (for lack of a better term). It works for us, it may not for all places.   Today I met with our 2 assistant pastors to plan the early Christmas Eve service (i.e. Family service w/ children's choirs). We had a good time as we roughed out a format to be used. My children's choir will sing the "Christmas MESSIAH for Young Voices", which we perform every other year. All of us agreed that the Children's Choir presentation WOULD BE the sermon.   BTW, if you are not familiar with this work, I recommend it as a way to introduce young singers to the wonderful melodies in "Messiah". Sure, it's a highly abridged adaptation, but it works beautifully.   So, in summary, Communication is key. Planning EARLY is critical to a successful advent. Will there be stress? Of course. But, when we think ahead before the onslaught of the season, things work much more smoothly.   Our pastors always mock me for planning for Christmas so, so, so early, but it always pays big dividends for my feeble brainery.   Peace to you, John. I hope it all works out. Could I suggest you and your pastor pray before the start of your meeting? Meet in a neutral spot -- perhaps, the sanctuary would do. Cheers, Neil Brown    
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 21:50:29 -0500   At 07:35 PM 12/04/2000 -0500, you wrote:   >I'm really curious. Does anyone know the average attendance at these = various >services? > >Jerry in Seattle   I don't have their announcement folder from yesterday that states attendance at the worship services the week before, but I can tell you = that the 8:30 contemp and the 9:45 traditional family services are = jam-packed... and it's no small sanctuary.   Will try to remember to look it up next Sunday.   Christmas Eve: They're having two morning services and 4 - starting at 3:30 - Christmas Eve services. And a Christmas Morning one as well.   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: RE: A Dynamic Duo From: "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 21:53:13 -0500   At 05:20 PM 12/04/2000 -0800, Randy wrote: > They have 2500 members and an >additional 2500 "constituents," active, contributing folks who choose not = to >"join." They have 3 services every Sunday with an average atendance of = 1200 >(our Nave seats about 500.)     >I wrote:   > >This church boasts of a 5800 member congregation and growing.     Ya gotta wonder what makes these churches work.... what are they doing = RIGHT?   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:29:48 -0500 (EST)   Who (or where) is they?   >>I don't have their announcement folder from yesterday that states attendance at the worship services the week before, but I can tell you that the 8:30 contemp and the 9:45 traditional family services are jam-packed... and it's no small sanctuary.<<   Neil B.    
(back) Subject: Re: I have had it! From: <LLWheels@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:33:14 EST   In a message dated 12/4/2000 4:25:44 PM Central Standard Time, DRAWKNOB@AOL.com writes:   << I do understand the Pastor and certain member's feelings that we need to appeal to a larger = "audience", but I don't think that giving in to commercialism and abandoning = tradition is the road that should be taken. I'm certain that I'm not the only one = there that feels this way. >>   There is a common heresy in the church today that confuses worship with evangelism. I was taught and still believe that the twofold purpose of worship is <the glorification of God and the edification of Man> (Forgive = the non-inclusive term -- it means humankind in this instance.) I also firmly believe that worship should reflect the reality of the congregation, theologically, historically and culturally, but the culture of the church = was never intended to be the culture-at-large (in, but not of...). Proponents = of the <worship-as-entertainment> sect usually begin by dumbing-down the = music and, as we all know, as the music goes, so goes the theology. Their theory =   supposes that theology can then be spoon-fed to an otherwise unwilling = mass. In reality it is the role of evangelism, not worship, to win the hearts of =   people so that their minds will follow. Worship is the property and the prerogative of the believer, not the postulant. Historically, catechumen = were excluded from the Eucharist until they confirmed their belief. Evangelism =   is, of course, vital for the survival of the church, but if we abandon the =   theological message of the church (as told by its music) there will be nothing left worth evangelizing for.   Do not suppose that this means that I am opposed to anything written after =   (1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, etc-pick the year appropriate to your = denomination). I believe in introducing good music and good thought wherever it comes = from, especially if it comes from the cultures represented in our pews, but, = music or thought, it must first be of quality appropriate to worship. We don't = sing substandard 16th or 17th century hymns because most of them have fallen by =   the wayside long ago. We are called be the arbiter of quality in music of = our time for our congregations -- some of us even requirements to that effect = in our contracts -- check yours!   Therein lies the rub. When clergy think themselves qualified to make such choices, conflict can occur. Some clergy are qualified to do this; most = are not. Clergy are susceptible to the same avalanche of elevator-music as the =   rest of the population and often are insecure in supporting what seems popular. Part of our task is to support and educate the pastors, = increasing their understanding of the role and value of music in our worship. A wise leader learns to defer to superior knowledge. This requires a certain = level of maturity which cannot be taught in seminary; some get it early, most = must learn the hard way. It also requires a certain level of maturity in the musician, the ability to be authoritative without threatening, and a willingness to compromise on small things in order to accomplish larger goals, and a great deal of patience. One must judge for oneself whether = the clergy you work with are teachable within the limits of your own patience. = If not, then its time to move on.     Larry L. Wheelock Organist Conductor Composer Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, WI Austin Organ Co. Opus 1628, 1928 III/55    
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 23:34:06 -0500   At 11:29 PM 12/04/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Who (or where) is they?     <<sigh>>   Trinity Lutheran, Lansdale, PA.    
(back) Subject: Re: A Dynamic Duo From: "Jim" <bald1@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:46:13 -0600   Shirley, they are probably putting egos aside and actually worshipping. What's it all about ain't it?   Jim H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley" <pnst@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 8:53 PM Subject: RE: A Dynamic Duo     > > Ya gotta wonder what makes these churches work.... what are they doing RIGHT? > > --Shirley > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: I have had it! From: <Puppydawgbreath@cs.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:11:09 EST   In a message dated 12/4/00 5:08:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, = DRAWKNOB@aol.com writes:   << << 2. - Unfamiliar hymns need to be introduced to the folks carefully. Identify them (from the pulpit), perhaps have the choir sing them, an don't do more than one per service. >> >>   There are few things that cause consternation in a congregation than = having the minister stand up and say, "This hymn is new, unfamiliar, and hard to sing. Here we go...."   Just put the number in the leaflet, play it through and go!   Bruce, still in the Beagles Nest with the Baskerbeagles... visit us: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 (aroooooooooO) but working from another computer since mine is in a REALLLY REALLLLY BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD MOOOD!!! (It's gone to the detention center for a couple of weeks)  
(back) Subject: Re: Jobs From: <p.wilson2@juno.com> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:40:38 -0800   The position of Civic Organist at the Spreckels Organ Pavilion in San Diego is open. Robert Plimpton has resigned, effective 1st November. You can get super-basic info about the job from the AGO Website >www.agohq.org<. Follow the employment links.   Shalom, Preston p.wilson2@juno.com      
(back) Subject: Re: I have had it! From: <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:49:51 EST   In a message dated 12/5/00 12:14:53 AM Central Standard Time, Puppydawgbreath@cs.com writes:   << << << 2. - Unfamiliar hymns need to be introduced to the folks = carefully. Identify them (from the pulpit), perhaps have the choir sing them, an don't do more than one per service. >> >> >>   Neither MYSELF nor Puppydawgbreath wrote the above..... I just want to clarify that!   Furthermore, in my humble opinion music should be left to the musicians = and theology left to the theologians.... If not, then I guess I could start ringing the chimes or introduce a hymn when sermons get boring and OLD.   John