PipeChat Digest #1728 - Thursday, December 28, 2000 Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good for firewood... by "VEAGUE" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good forfirewood... by "Roy Redman" <email@example.com> Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good for firewood... by <Cremona502@cs.com> Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good forfirewood... by "Bob Scarborough" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- by <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Re: Cinema organs (Barton) by <ScottFop@aol.com> Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good for firewood... From: "VEAGUE" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:36:25 -0500 DeserTBoB- Good having you back again ! Rick
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good forfirewood... From: "Roy Redman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:49:58 -0600 You can quite easily have both consoles, you know!! The Leipsig Gewandhaus, and I am sure others have this. What about the postings about delayed sound the organist hears from an instrument 50' away, however? Roy "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > Dear Bruce, > You should know that I have four friends who are > members of the Dallas Symphony. They share my > opinion. > Secondly, I stress that an electric action MOVABLE > console on the stage is far more preferable than a > tracker action console 50 feet above the stage. > I think I made it clear that the player can make a bad > instrument sound better. Bad actions, in this case I > use bad tracker actions, don't make for comfortable > music making. Takes all the fun away! > When you play your first concert with orchestra, let > us know and we will be curious to hear if the > experience changed your perspective. > JW > > --- Cremona502@cs.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/24/00 4:09:14 PM !!!First > > Boot!!!, > > email@example.com writes: > > > > << First of all folks, it is not the instrument from > > where the music comes, > > but rather the person playing. When the instrument > > becomes a hinderance to > > comfortable music-making, then the instrument really > > proves itself to be > > inadequate. >> > > > > Music is the result of interaction BETWEEN the > > muscian and the instrument. > > I've heard far too many wonderful instruments played > > poorly and wretched > > instruments played wonderfully to agree with the > > above statement. There > > are, unfortunatley, inadequate instruments as well > > as players. It's even > > possible to be musical on an electronic! > > > > > > <<Such is the case with many trackers where the > > actions is uneven (heavier in > > the bottom register of the keyboard and feather > > light in the upper part, > > differences in action from manual to manual, HEAVY > > touch when coupled, > > etc.).>> > > > > Not so again! Weekly I hear some of the most > > musical playing by our > > organist on one of the worst actions I've ever > > played. The action may make > > it more difficult to be musical, but a musician > > cannot be prevented from > > being musical. > > > > > > <<Secondly, in the case of concert hall instruments, > > the Meyerson Hall > > (Dallas)Fisk, while sounding impressive as a solo > > instrument, is a disastor > > as an ensemble instrument: > > It is too far from the stage, thereby preventing > > any real communication > > between organist, conductor and orchestra, there is > > no way for the organist > > to hear > > the orchestra clearly from the console and the > > organ frequently buries the > > symphony. > > > > Sorry.... too many generalizations here. NO ONE, > > save the conductor and the > > audience, gets to hear the orchestra balanced. As a > > cellist, I know this for > > a fact. The placement may not be ideal, but what > > is ideal for a concert > > venue. If the organ had been EP, the console would > > be moveable anywhere > > convenient to the orchestra, and the pipes would > > probably have been nicely > > tucked away in chambers. It is possible to balance > > the organ and orchestra, > > and, as well, to stay together. The Meyerson Fisk, > > as well as the one in > > Seattle, have had unfortunate reviews. Part of the > > problem is trying to be > > so eclectic that the instrument can do neither job > > well. In addition, some > > of the reviews of playing have left doubt as the the > > ego-checks on some > > organists. > > > > <<Organists hardly play together with precision with > > the orchestra. >> > > > > Certainly SOME do. I've never heard a performance > > of organ and orchestra > > with such problems. It depends upon the artists at > > work. > > > > > > << Trackers don't belong in a concert hall. > > Unfortunately, the organists who > > get themselves on selection committees to choose > > concert hall instruments > > have hardly any if no experience playing with > > orchestras and give in to their > > personal preferences rather than thinking on real > > musical, practical terms > > about what is best fo the concert hall.>> > > > > What a crock of hooey! Mechanical action organs > > were successfully used in > > concert halls before electriction came on the scene. > > Electric action will > > not cure an insensitive performer, nor will it keep > > and organ from being too > > loud, or from being a good ensemble instrument and > > lousy solo instrument or > > vice versa. > > > > > > << What has proven to be best is an electric action > > instrument with a movable > > console. > > >> > > > > Sorry, Charlie!!! No cigar. Add a moveable console > > to an instrument that is > > too loud or poorly placed, and sit an insensitive > > performer on the bench and > > you have the SAME problems as with an identical > > tracker instrument. > > Further, by adding a moveable console, pipe > > placement is thus freed to > > further complicate the situation. Your console may > > be closer to the > > orchestra now, but the pipes may be buried under the > > state, or in the attic > > drooling out through tone chutes, or even in a case > > in the exact position as > > the tracker which you blame for all of the ills of > > poor playing and poor > > organ building. There is no one right way to > > provide an instrument for a > > concert venue. On the other hand, there may be > > several excellent ways to > > solve the various problems and provide an instrument > > using mechanical, > > electro-pneumatic, or totally electric, or even > > tubular pneumatic action. > > It's up to the builder to assess the situation and > > provide a successful > > solution. Unfortunately, all too often politics are > > involved which > > compromise the builder's ability to offer the best > > work. > > > > Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com > > with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ > > ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" > > Visit Howling Acres at Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good for firewood... From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:14:45 EST In a message dated 12/28/00 2:32:26 AM !!!First Boot!!!,=20 firstname.lastname@example.org writes: << Because it's yet ANOTHER screwed-up "Frisky=E2=84=A2", that's why! =20 WHEN will the bluenoses get a CLUE, and quit BUYING these tonal turkeys? >> Oh God! It's awake!!!! BBBWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (welcome back into the light DessertB!) Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com =20 with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- basically good forfirewood... From: "Bob Scarborough" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:09:52 -0800 At 05:49 PM 12/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: >You should know that I have four friends who are >members of the Dallas Symphony. They share my >opinion.<snip> Let's face it...tracker action is NOT suitable for large, concert-destined = instruments...period. It lacks the flexibility of placement of console, provides NONE of the highly-touted "articulation" its wags claim, is outrageously expensive to build, and is just plain OBSOLETE! The money wasted on such goofiness is better spend on a better specification and better acoustical treatments for both the hall and the organ. End of discussion....NEXT! DeserTBoB
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- From: <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:05:06 -0500 (EST) Having heard neither the Seattle nor the Dallas organs live, I will jump in here totally unknowledgeable... But, it has been my assumption that mechanical action tracker instruments are by and large more reliable (in terms of mechanics) than other instruments. I base this on the fact that fewer moving parts means fewer problems. This may not be totally true, but I'm told it is essentially true. It seems to me that the "tracker" concept has merit, if for no other reason, than there are organs 200 and 300 years old that are still operational. A good organist will make a Magnus Chord Organ (remember those?) sound good. Not to puff myself up too highly, but, when I've played a wedding or funeral at a church with some type of electronic instrument, inevitably someone will come to me afterwards and say, "You got sounds out of that organ we've never heard before." Or, "You make that organ sound like it was meant to sound." I enjoy getting those compliments. It's about using what is available to make music to the best of one's ability and to communicate with the listener in some way through music. Neil B.
(back) Subject: Re: Cinema organs (Barton) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 01:16:26 EST --part1_b4.f3cc1d3.277c34ba_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/27/00 6:00:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, TubaMagna@aol.com writes: > Any other pipechatters have > familiarity with Bartons? > > Extremely. What would you like to know? Scott F --part1_b4.f3cc1d3.277c34ba_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 12/27/00 6:00:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>TubaMagna@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Any other = pipechatters have <BR>familiarity with Bartons? <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Extremely. What would you like to know? <BR> <BR>Scott F</FONT></HTML> --part1_b4.f3cc1d3.277c34ba_boundary--
(back) Subject: Re: Benaroya Hall organ (tracker) -- From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 01:58:44 EST In a message dated 12/28/00 12:05:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, Innkawgneeto@webtv.net writes: <<Assumption>> <<not totally true>> Build one and you will see just how many things can (and do) go wrong. How = the powers of contraction and expansion can play havoc causing ciphers, throwing the tuning off and needing adjustment that is not necessary in a well made electro mechanical action. I have serviced a 1914 Wicks that was = completely original and received very little maintenance over the years. A = good tracker action will last many years but assumptions about the lack of = moving parts is nonsense. There may be fewer moving parts but they are = under considerably more strain than the parts in electro mechanical action. = Rebuild one and you will see. Hold a Reisner 601 or a Peterson direct chest magnet = in your hand and try to figure out how it will ever wear out. They don't. = There were some problems with improperly plated frames causing rusting hinge = pins in humid areas, but that was a manufacturing fault. I think that we should = preserve the old trackers and build new trackers but not large concert = hall organs. I have seen first hand that the low maintenance propaganda spewed = by tracker builders is nonsense. The 1895 Haskell that I am currently = restoring has been rebuilt twice (we are finishing the third) while the = aforementioned Wicks has only received minor repairs. As far as the articulation of mechanical action goes we can (or at least I can) do that with a simple, ultra reliable, electric action thus providing a movable console along = with all the bells and whistles associated with electric action. I can respect = the Beneroya hall organ for what it is and Fisk for what they do but I would never have built it (or any other organ) that way. It is a shame that an opportunity to build a truly first rate organ in a major venue was missed = for the sake of a gimmick. Alan B