PipeChat Digest #1733 - Friday, December 29, 2000
 
the bottom line
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: the bottom line
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: King Arthur
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: the bottom line
  by "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com>
Re: the bottom line
  by "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com>
Re: the bottom line
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: New Year's Eve Recital
  by "Jerald Marshall" <marshallduet@ameritech.net>
Re: the bottom line
  by "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com>
Re: the bottom line
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: the bottom line
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
bud's situation - long
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org>
OSKALED CZ Sound? Searching infos...
  by "M. Hackett" <mikehack@u.washington.edu>
Similar to Bud's situation
  by "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com>
Re: OSKALED CZ Sound? Searching infos...
  by "Ray Thursby" <raythursby@earthlink.net>
RE: Similar to Bud's situation
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org>
 

(back) Subject: the bottom line From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:47:48 -0800   I have spent three years researching what to do for an organ for St. = Matthew's new building ... I received the following tenders:       New custom straight pipe organ (tracker or electro-magnetic pulldowns to = slider chests), 20 ranks over two manuals and pedals: $425K-$500K   New custom unit pipe organ, 10 ranks over two manuals and pedals: $227K   New custom completely "straight" two-manual electronic organ: $200K (!)   Used electric-action pipe organ, approx. 30 ranks over three manuals and pedals, releathered, solid-stated, installed: $100K-$175K   New stock two or three-manual electronic organ: $50K-$100K   Used four-manual stock analog electronic organ: $40K       The used pipe organ would be the most organ for the money, obviously, but = given that the present two-slice Hammond/Suzuki cost $11K, they can't IMAGINE spending that kind of money for an organ.   We could probably do a transplanted tracker for less money, but given our service and the fact that I'm organist/choirmaster, an attached keydesk = simply isn't practical for us without lots of mirrors, closed-circuit TV, etc ... been/there, done/that, it's a HUGE nuisance. I have to FACE my choir.   The electronics' prices are somewhat higher because we require an = antiphonal in the chancel for the ritual choir ... if we got a pipe organ, there would probably have to be a few digital "ranks" down front for the same purpose.   So what's going to happen? The used analog four-manual electronic, of = course .... if ANYTHING ... unless an "angel" appears with a check for $500K.   Cheers,   Bud                
(back) Subject: RE: the bottom line From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:57:14 -0600   Well we all know there are no "angels" on this list....   Peter   So what's going to happen? The used analog four-manual electronic, of = course .... if ANYTHING ... unless an "angel" appears with a check for $500K.   Cheers,   Bud                 "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: King Arthur From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:18:28 -0500   Dear Pipechatters.....   I wrote to the King Arthur people about the "Sound Truck"... Here is the reply.....   Hello, I shared your question with Frank Sands, Chairman of the Board and 5th generation Sands of the original Sands, Taylor & Wood founders of King Arthur Flour. He said that about 50 years ago the original calliope organ was replaced with a record player on the sound truck and following that, a tape player. The were-about of the original organ is a mystery. Unfortunately, the wooden statue of King Arthur was eventually damaged in an accident and all that remains today is the horses head, located at our headquarters in Norwich, and the tail end which resides at home with Frank. The statue was originally built by the Spillman Engineering Corp. in North Tonawanda, NY. Perhaps they may provide a lead regarding the organ. Thank you for your interest. Happy New Year! Shannon Zappala     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY  
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:47:35 -0600     Go for the one below, you will never regret it. Luther -----Original Message----- From: quilisma@socal.rr.com <quilisma@socal.rr.com>     >I have spent three years researching what to do for an organ for St. Matthew's >new building ... I received the following tenders: > >Used electric-action pipe organ, approx. 30 ranks over three manuals and >pedals, releathered, solid-stated, installed: $100K-$175K >Cheers, > >Bud >    
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:12:37 -0800   How many people does this church seat?   Blaine   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > > I have spent three years researching what to do for an organ for St. = Matthew's > new building ... I received the following tenders: >   > Used four-manual stock analog electronic organ: $40K > > > > The electronics' prices are somewhat higher because we require an = antiphonal in > the chancel for the ritual choir ... if we got a pipe organ, there would > probably have to be a few digital "ranks" down front for the same = purpose. > > So what's going to happen? The used analog four-manual electronic, of = course > ... if ANYTHING ... unless an "angel" appears with a check for $500K. > > Cheers, > > Bud >  
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:18:11 -0600   Good grief! I don't know where you searched, but I can assure you that = there are many builders building fine pipe organs for allmost half what you quoted. = The APOBA and AIO reports show this quite clearly. If you want a list of = builders, in this price range, I can supply it. Surely you know that pipe organ prices are partially determined by the = prestige of a given builder at a specific time. Thankfully, prestige does not = determine quality, however! Roy Redman   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > I have spent three years researching what to do for an organ for St. = Matthew's > new building ... I received the following tenders: > > New custom straight pipe organ (tracker or electro-magnetic pulldowns to = slider > chests), 20 ranks over two manuals and pedals: $425K-$500K > > New custom unit pipe organ, 10 ranks over two manuals and pedals: $227K > > New custom completely "straight" two-manual electronic organ: $200K (!) > > Used electric-action pipe organ, approx. 30 ranks over three manuals and > pedals, releathered, solid-stated, installed: $100K-$175K > > New stock two or three-manual electronic organ: $50K-$100K > > Used four-manual stock analog electronic organ: $40K > > The used pipe organ would be the most organ for the money, obviously, = but given > that the present two-slice Hammond/Suzuki cost $11K, they can't IMAGINE > spending that kind of money for an organ. > > We could probably do a transplanted tracker for less money, but given = our > service and the fact that I'm organist/choirmaster, an attached keydesk = simply > isn't practical for us without lots of mirrors, closed-circuit TV, etc = ... > been/there, done/that, it's a HUGE nuisance. I have to FACE my choir. > > The electronics' prices are somewhat higher because we require an = antiphonal in > the chancel for the ritual choir ... if we got a pipe organ, there would > probably have to be a few digital "ranks" down front for the same = purpose. > > So what's going to happen? The used analog four-manual electronic, of = course > ... if ANYTHING ... unless an "angel" appears with a check for $500K. > > Cheers, > > Bud > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: New Year's Eve Recital From: "Jerald Marshall" <marshallduet@ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:17:48 -0500   This looks like a great way to bring in the New Year. Best of luck! The program looks fabulous. I wish someone in our area would do something like this for New Year's, I'll maybe plan for a recital next year at my church for the Eve of"2002 Have Fun! Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bobmac36@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: New Year's Eve Recital     > If you're in the Fort Worth area, you might be interested in hearing a = New > Year's Eve recital at 10:45 PM at First Presbyterian Church. The = program: > Carillon de Westminster - Vierne > Quick March - Horatio Parker > Thirty Two Feet and Eight Little Tails - arr. Jesse Crawford > Toccata and Fugue in d minor - Bach > Two movements from the Carmen Suite - Bizet (arranged James Biery) > Carillon-Sortie - Mulet > The program will be played by Robert MacDonald, organist and choir director; > and Leslie Peart, guest organist. > The Parker and two Bizet pieces will be organ duets. > A short New Year's Eve service follows the recital, and ends at midnight with > the pealing of 14 tower bells and both sets of chimes on the organ - the > singing of Auld Lang Syne and the Widor Toccata (Symphony V). > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:55:21 -0800   If you can't see over or around a tracker, how are you going to see over a four manual console?   Blaine   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > > We could probably do a transplanted tracker for less money, but given = our > service and the fact that I'm organist/choirmaster, an attached keydesk = simply > isn't practical for us without lots of mirrors, closed-circuit TV, etc = ... > been/there, done/that, it's a HUGE nuisance. I have to FACE my choir. >  
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:04:58 EST   In a message dated 12/29/00 5:52:47 AM Dateline Standard Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << So what's going to happen? The used analog four-manual electronic, of = course ... if ANYTHING ... unless an "angel" appears with a check for $500K. >>   Oh Good Grief.   A year ago I installed a VERY NICE custom 7 rank instrument in our chapel (seats 80+) for just under $75K. Granted, OSI is right here in town, and = the church got a screaming deal on the installation. But even adding 3 grand = or so for shipping, and another 10-20 grand for a few more stops and swell shades (our has none), you could still get an EXCELLENT pipe organ (tho small) for under $100K.   Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA  
(back) Subject: Re: the bottom line From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:33:30 EST   Alternatives are in abundance.   Most institutions make the wrong decisions because they have no idea where = to look, and despite their best efforts, have barely scratched the surface. I recently heard of a two-manual Skinner of over thirty ranks, buried in a landfill, because the institution discarding it "couldn't find anybody to take it." I have four clients waiting for such an instrument. Obviously, =   THEY didn't know where to look when they decided to destroy historic = artwork.   While it is very understandable that funding is ALWAYS an issue, even on large projects, how long do they expect the used non-pipe device to last? =   Will it end up being an expenditure rather than an true investment? And = of course, they will face the SAME dilemma a few years hence, when it must be =   replaced.   Cast your net wider, be lateral in your thinking -- many churches, synagogues, and individuals have realized their aspirations of a pipe = organ when they really thought there was no hope.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: bud's situation - long From: "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:23:31 -0800     BUD WROTE:   >Used electric-action pipe organ, approx. 30 ranks over three manuals and >pedals, releathered, solid-stated, installed: $100K-$175K     Hi Bud.   Blaine asked a good question: How many people will the new nave seat? I have served two parishes, both with rear gallery installations. I can = tell you with certainty that ACOUSTICS will make or break the success of any organ. First church seated 350 and had a 1978 Moller series (unit) organ with the following ranks: Gemshorn, Spitzflute, and 16' Trompette = enclosed, and Principal, 16' Bourdon/Gedeckt, and a II Mixture exposed. I had John Hendriksen revoice it in 1986 and the results were wonderful. We had also purchased a 1946 Moller that was being replaced by a church who wanted a 3 manual Allen. Along with a crew of 3 volunteers I added the large 16' = Pedal Bourdon, the Oboe (a very nice one, too) and the pneumatic Chimes from the Moller. We also added a 1925 Skinner Clarinet that was given to us. I spent $1,000.00 for the 1946 organ. We paid John Hendriksen a total of about $1,500.00. Moller provided console parts for the modifications at = no charge. We constructed chambers in unused space on either side of the = choir risers that actually improved the gallery's appearance - that was the biggest expense. A local Baptist Church redecorated their Sanctuary and = was disposing of about eight 4' x 8' organ grills that were in perfectly good condition - we used 4 of them. We used the larger 1946 Blower. After selling the 1946 console, the 1978 blower, and swapping and trading = various pipes and parts we pretty much broke even. Nobody will believe me when I say that little organ sounded like a Skinner, but it did. And I actually got that comment once when a member of St. Luke's Episcopal in Evanston visited and asked if the organ was a Skinner! It only had 4 general = pistons but we held recitals and hosted a number of excellent choirs, which the organ accompanied beautifully.   My present church seats 400 people and has an organ of 13 ranks which is more than adequate. Again, acoustics play a major role, but I have = listened to my recording from lessons and carols and I am amazed that that instrument, an assemblage of supply house pipes and parts, can do what it does. We are spending about $4-5K to reassign some stops and add 4 ranks: A German Oboe that may have never been used, which I got for $500.00, a = new Nasard of conical pipes (recent vintage but not new) so we can reassign = our present 2-2/3 Rohr-Nasard to become another unison flute unit, a revoiced Clarabella, and a brand new enclosed 4-2 Principal unit for the "swell." = We purchased a used DE chest for the Oboe in mint condition for $300.00, and our builder is building us a new 2 (or maybe 3) rank DE chest for around $2,000.00. He will do everything in the chamber including quite a bit of tonal finishing of the original pipework, and we (I) will do the rewiring and changes in the old Klann console. I got a used Resiner relay for $100.00 so I won't have to do that much inside the console to get the = stops assigned to the "swell" going. The big project is a $15K console rebuild and relay using Peterson equipment, which I hope to have done sometime in 2002. Grace Cathedral had Peterson design a sostenuto device for the = swell on their new Schoenstien console, which is much fun for improvision and such. I figured it would cost too much to include in a "practical" church organ, but found out the divice is only @$150.00 per division.   The 1978 7 rank Moller cost the church $22,000.00 and we probably spent $4,000.00 during our project (but made at least $2,000.00 back by selling redundant parts.) They are now doing a solid state renovation and adding a few more stops at a cost of $25,000.00. The thing will end up around 15 ranks and even if you add all the costs of these various projects together you still have a bargain.   The 1972 Swain & Kates was $22,500.00 originally, and I expect to pay, as mentioned above, between $4-5K for these tonal additions. With the $15K solid state upgrade we will totally update the stoplist, add unison couplers, and a full combination action, as well as some "special" items like the sostenuto reversible for the swell. Assuming the total for these projects comes to $45,000.00 for a 17-18 rank organ, one that really = sounds great and is perfectly suited to our Episcopal worship style, this is a bargain, too.   Of course, in each case we started out with great acoustics - small instruments can do so much when given a proper invironment and placement = in which to speak. In both cases there is a mechanically functional, nice sounding but very run-of-the-mill existing instrument (The Swain & Kates = is definitely much more successful as built than the Moller) to which we = spent a lot of time hunting for good used equipment, hours of donated labor, and considerable dedication to bring these projects to fruition.   How does this information help Bud? First of all you have to get your parish to budget a reasonable amount of money for an organ. $100-200K = would seem appropriate at the very least. From reading your posts, given the complexity of the liturgy and the major role music plays in it, you would think a decent pipe organ would be a given.   There are a couple of options. I once consulted for a parish that had = built a wonderful new building but there was no way they could afford a new pipe organ and their existing Rodgers just did not fit in with the high = standards set by the building. Some may laugh, but I talked them into purchasing an old Wicks (Bourdon, Diapason, Salicional, Dulciana and Unda Maris) which = was installed with only one change - swapping the "fake" Quintadena for a 2' FIfteenth borrowed from the Diapason for the Great. The organ was practically given to them and the installation costs were minimal. In the good acoustics the organ sounded fine. A Skinner or a fine tracker it wasn't, but it was SUCCESSFUL. Ten years later they had their NEW pipe organ and the Wicks is serving elsewhere.   The thing I have learned over the years is that very often there IS music hiding in many older instruments. Many times I don't think organists, per se, recognize or understand this. A rebuilt EP instrument as you = described has the potential to be almost anything you want - certainly it would meet the church's needs.   I'm not totally against fully digital instruments, I just think money = alone should not rule out a pipe organ since there isn't that much difference = when you get into the really nice sounding digital instruments which require = many speakers.   I don't know if this information really helps, but I am here to tell you that I know from experience the recreation that can take place when a good voicer gets hold of poorly voiced and/or regulated pipework. I wish you = the best for the new year and good luck with your continuing project.   Randy Terry    
(back) Subject: OSKALED CZ Sound? Searching infos... From: "M. Hackett" <mikehack@u.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:22:17 -0800 (PST)     In the 1982? book on the 'Mighty Werlitzer' there is an organ installation database in the back.   It lists OSKALED TO installations accross South East and Central Europe.   The furthest East installation is in the State Theatre in ODESSA Russia.   If anyone has any infos on these TO's -- do tell ...   > Ok, what is OSKALED TO ....RUS ? >              
(back) Subject: Similar to Bud's situation From: "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 19:31:15 -0500   My situation is kind of similar to Bud's.   I have been Organist-in-residence for the past 2.5 years.   Before I came on-board, there was a little talk of work done on the organ. =   (a 2/20 1913 Moller/1960 Delaware/ 1980 Knapton pipe organ)   The organ DOES sound wonderful, but the mechanics are really very...., = well, shot. The supports are sagging, the facade has settled considerably, and the organ is the most heavily traveled organ in the world as it is the = ONLY way to the attic. Plus the wiring is the cotton-covered and radiates transiates through the sound system.   The church is on the fast track to growth, but they don't care about the organ. The pastor has spear-headed the "worship band" which has taken = over the choirloft's piano amp system (we have no amp for the Roland piano for Sunday!).   I have been on an emotional and political rollercoaster for the past year with the church. They hired me because they wanted someone who will spear-head growth in the music of the church. I already have an orchestra = I can call on in a moment's notice - of all professional musicians - and = they all volunteer!! (The only catch is that I have to pay for anything they need, which isn't much)   The financial situation is outstanding!!! $700,000 endowment fund and growing faster than rabbits can make their happy little families.   They say they are tired of spending money. I can't blame them. $75,000 = for a handicap bathroom and elevator, and $90,000 remodeling done on Anderson Hall. Then they had an intercom system installed between the front door = and the choir room, office, pastor study, choirloft. Carpeting of the educational wing, choirloft, and "organ hall" (the hall under the organ chamber) which was about $20,000.   Weekly attendance is about 400, but the rolls have over 1000 people on = them and everyone turns out for big sundays and gives large donations.   Now, I'm planning on going away to Westminster Choir College (about 6 = hours away) and they have put an ad-hoc committee together to look into the = organ. The bad thing is that the ad-hoc committee consists of people who have = mo musical ability. THEY CAN'T EVEN CARRY A TUNE FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!!! LET =   ALONE KNOW WHAT A PIANO IS!!!!!   The choir, God love them, is a hard-hitting, down and dirty group. They = are willing to do a fund raiser and want a new organ and a larger choir loft = as we are overfilling it. Plus they also want to install a gallery organ in the back gallery and a balcony in both transcepts with a VERY small organ = in each so the orchestra has a place to be.   They are already in the process of installing a lighting automation system =   throughout the entire building which is going to cost about $50,000.   So what do I do to get the church moving along IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION so they will have the best and largest organ (which they want) in the area?????? Keeping in mind that I am going to possibly be heading to NJ = in less than 6 months??????   Thanks in advance, Jason Comet _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: OSKALED CZ Sound? Searching infos... From: "Ray Thursby" <raythursby@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:09:39 -0800   I believe the proper spelling of the name is "Oskalyd."   I know the proper spelling of the other name mentioned is "Wurlitzer!"   One "u" and one "e" only, Mr. Hackett!   Ray Thursby    
(back) Subject: RE: Similar to Bud's situation From: "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 17:42:49 -0800   Jason, if you are going to be going off to school or otherwise occupied my advice is to stay out of it and do nothing. You could leave a written report, which may be of some help, but it sounds like they don't really = NEED a large organ with Chancel, Gallery, Gospel and Epistle divisions! I just wrote a long post about making an instrument that is not voiced to its potential work by correcting problems by revoicing and/or replacing ranks. If your existing instrument is mechanically shot (sounds like it to me) better to start from scratch after the numerous rebuildings, perhaps recycling any or all ranks desired to be retained. I have a problem with "wanting to have the largest organ in the area" just for the sake of = bigger and better.   I talk about the wonderful 1988 Moller at the Episcopal Cathedral in Birmingham, AL alot. It has many pipes from two large Skinners, including all the "signature" stops, along with everything else possible. The organist HAD to have 100 ranks. It IS wonderful, but they stuffed it into chambers that were meant for about 70 ranks at the most. The result is stacked swell, stacked choir, and the 32' Skinner Bourdon stuffed in the smaller solo chamber where it hardly wheezes out any sound at all. There are tuning problems because of the stacked placement.   It is truly a great instrument worthy of the heritage of the significant vintage pipework it contains and the voicing talent of Daniel Angerstein. But I can still remember the organist saying he "got it up to 100 ranks." Somehow that just didn't seem to sit well with me. Organs are like music = - they need the ranks that are required, nothing more, nothing less. This = is a simple-minded statement of course. I am in the process of organizing = and assisting with the tonal changes and additions to the 1972 13 rank Swain & Kates at my parish. We are adding a color reed, because we only had a Trumpet. We are adding an enclosed Principal unit foremost to assist with tuning, but for accompaniment as well. The lovely Gemshorns sound like Flauto Dolces to me, but as much as I would have liked a real string and celeste the church can get by with only one pair of celestes so I dropped that from the plan. We are adding/reassigning 2 flute stops so there will be independent 8 and 4 flutes on both manuals as needed. With these 17 ranks (unified freely but wisely) we will have a complete organ and need nothing more. The effect is what is important! Who cares how big it is = if it sounds like a kazoo! If I could add an 18th rank it would be a loud = solo Trumpet, so I am breaking my own rule, but that is something that my parish's liturgical style really needs and it is definitely missing.   I know nobody will read this anyway so I am going to shut up!!   Randy   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Jason Comet   So what do I do to get the church moving along IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION so they will have the best and largest organ (which they want) in the area?????? Keeping in mind that I am going to possibly be heading to NJ = in less than 6 months??????