PipeChat Digest #1657 - Saturday, November 11, 2000

 

Re: Hope-Jones, "Taylorism" and ergonomics.

  by <LLWheels@aol.com>

Goin' Home

  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>

FWD from Bud Clark

  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>

Re: Organ Questions/"Replys"

  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>

Resiner Palette Valve Problems

  by "Bob Kinner" <rkinner@one.net>

Re: Organ Questions/"Replys"

  by "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com>

Re: Resiner Palette Valve Problems

  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>

Re: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards?

  by "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com>

Re: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards?

  by "Ray Thursby" <raythursby@earthlink.net>

Fw: Resiner Palette Valve Problems

  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>

Fw: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards?

  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>

 


(back) Subject: Re: Hope-Jones, "Taylorism" and ergonomics. From: <LLWheels@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:42:03 EST     Thank you for your concise history of the social origins of ergonomics. I agree with nearly all of what you wrote. We're not far apart, but I feel I =   need to respond in defense of my statement that there is <no such animal> = as an ergonomically designed console.   In a message dated 11/11/2000 4:01:23 AM Central Standard Time, dessertbobwrites:   << In that sense, yes, the Hope-Jones console is an "efficiency" improvement, and not strictly an "ergonomic", or injury-reducing, one. >>   My point exactly.   While many improvements have been made to consoles for a perception of efficiency, none of these specifically took into account the structural mechanisms of the human body in any scientific way.   I type this email on a keyboard which is a variation of the usual QWERTY keyboard in that it splits the keys into two different angles and provides = a built-in wrist support. Studies have shown this to be beneficial in preventing repetitive trauma injury or CTS. (It's not a total answer but = it helps.) I have yet to hear a claim that anyone has set about to re-design = the relationships between the organist and the console which would take = advantage of what we have learned about ergonomics. Some experimentation has been = done; I recall seeing an experimental keyboard whose keys were arranged around a =   sphere instead of in a straight row. Perhaps changing the angle of the clavier would eliminate the CTS problems for organists (I don't KNOW that = -- it's just one possibility among many)   In order to design a truly human-friendly console, one would need to = discard all current notions of what a keyboard would look like, and re-define all = of the relationships of all the components involved. Perhaps it would involve =   stop-controls operated by movement of the eye as some computers and jet-planes operate. Perhaps there's something out there even more = high-tech (or low-tech) which would solve all problems associated with organ = consoles, but, to the best of my knowledge, nobody is knocking-himself-out looking = for those solutions.   You and I could argue for the next month over my belief that push-buttons = are inherently more efficient that stop-tabs because they require exactly the same motion to retire or select a stop, and they can be placed much more efficiently than either stop-keys or drawknobs. It seems intuitive. But = that is an argument of personal perception and practice. It does NOT mean it is =   ergonomically better because neither you nor I have conducted the = necessary research to determine that, and I doubt that any organbuilder I know would = be willing to finance such research.   So, I stand by my statement that <there is no such animal> as an ergonomically correct console, and it is deceitful to argue to replace a Skinner console with a modern console on the basis that modern consoles = are more ergonomically correct. It ain't so.   Larry L. Wheelock Organist Conductor Composer Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, WI Austin Organ Co. Opus 1628, 1928 III/55    
(back) Subject: Goin' Home From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:00:15 +0800     GOIN' HOME: Goin' home, goin' home, I'm a-goin' home, Quiet like some still day, I'm jes' goin' home. It's not far, jes' close by, through an open door, Work all done, care laid by, Gwine to fear no more. Mother's there, 'spectin' me, Father's waitin' too, Lots of folk gathered there, All the friends I knew. All the friends I knew. Home, home, I'm goin' home. ........................ Nothin's lost, all's gain, no more fret nor pain, No more stumblin' on the way, No more longin' for the day, Gwine to roam no more, Mornin' star lights the way, Res'less dreams all done, Shadows goin' break o' day, Real life jes' begun. Dere's no break, ain't no end, Jes' a livin' on Wide awake with a smile, Goin' on an' on. Goin' home, goin' home, I'm jes' goin' home. It's not far, jes' close by, thro' an open door, I'm jes' goin' home.     Bob E. -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: FWD from Bud Clark From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:50:46 -0600   Bud sent the following to me and asked that I post it to the list. He is currently off the list due to too much work at his church. The email address to reply to is: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> DO NOT post your reply to the list as he will not see it!   David   ************FORWARDED MESSAGE*******************************   COMMISSIONED WORK - PROPERS FOR THE DEDICATION OF A CHURCH   To allay any fears/confusion about this, both the commission and the $$$ to pay for it are intact, for those who expressed interest, but please contact me if you ARE still interested. Unfortunately my files crashed and I don't have the records of that correspondence (sigh).   Cheers,   Bud ********************************************************************* -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Questions/"Replys" From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:54:54 -0600   At 11/10/00 10:56 PM, Sebastian wrote:   >> Change of ACTION TYPE, from slider-and-pallet soundboards to pitman= action, >> or pitman action to electromechanical, CAN cause changes in pipe speech. >> This is why the use of electromechanical actions in place of existing >> electropneumatic actions does NOT constitute restoration, nor does it >> constitute the preservation of an instrument's sound. >>=20 >> Likewise, mounting facade pipes on new actions directly below their feet, >> when in the original historic installation they were tubed off some= distance >> from the main toeboard, can result in speech changes, notably in speed= and >> harmonic content of attack transients.   And John Speller added later:   >Yes and no. One would think that while it is possible that a solid >state relay might be faster than an electro-pneumatic one, that is not >going to change the pipe speech, since it is still the rate of opening >of the valve that is all important, and with a solid state control >system it is thus just a question of a simple on/off operation. > >BUT. The keying does have an effect on the pipe speech. For example, >putting diodes into the system will change the hysteresis >characteristics of the magnet, and thus the operation of the valve.=20 >That is how Wicks overcame the problem of valve bounce in their old >direct electric =AE actions. Even in an electro-pneumatic system, the >rate at which the magnet vents the primary and hence the pouch may have >an effect (albeit a marginal one) on the rate at which the pouch >operates, and thus the pipe speech. The relay is part of the total >system, and as such can affect the way in which the magnet vents. =20     Greetings, friends!   This has been an interesting thread, with good points made by nearly all correspondents. One thing I haven't seen yet, (though several have come quite close) I have actually *heard* myself, and here follows my understanding of the logic involved.   When dealing with electro-mechanical pipe valves (where the pipes are directly over the valves, with marginal or no "expansion cells" in the toeboards), a change from electromechanical to solid-state relay equipment most definitely can make a difference in the speech characteristics of the pipes. This difference is, for the most part, in the initial speech of the pipe itself -- nothing at all to the sustained tone afterward. These are the "attack transients" that Sebatian mentions.   An e-m relay is a simple mechanical switch -- its output being 'all off' to 'full on' instantaneously. When used to control e-m pipe valves, the valve magnets operate just the same way -- 'fully closed' to 'fully open' in a flash. This results in the languids of the pipes being presented with a quite-sudden "blast" of wind from the chest -- which can make the initial speech of the pipes have a bit of a "spit" or "cough" (for lack of better terms) as the air column is set into motion. Note that I am not referring to "chiff" -- it is a different sort of very brief "unsteadiness" (perhaps "wiggle"?) as the wind in the pipe settles into its pattern of flow through the windway.   If the same e-m relay controls an electropneumatic chest under the same pipe, the affect will likely not be in evidence, due to the relative *slower* response of the valve to its magnet being energized. Here, unlike the e-m valve, several things must happen before the valve seat begins to move [the coil is energized, the armature moves, (perhaps) a primary action has to operate, the wind under the pouch is allowed to begin to exhaust and starts to do so, and THEN the valve itself starts to open]. This action, though of course quite rapid, is not nearly as immediate as a plain e-m valve opening. Thus, the valve itself opens in a gentler (slower) fashion, and the undesired "cough" does not present itself, as the wind entering the pipe does so in a smoother and gentler flow. =20   Going back to the e-m chest, if one replaces the e-m relay with a solid-state example, the output current going to the valve coils can also behave in a "softer" fashion, thereby allowing the e-m valves to open in a slightly more-controlled (slower) fashion (and thus starting to mimic the response of the e-p valve action again). Amongst other things, this is also a handy way around "valve bounce".   The use of expansion cells in a e-m toeboard also helps to alleviate this phenomenon, as does the practice of placing large pipes in a "tubed-off" location (vs. directly over their valves). Here, the function of "smoothing out" the initial blast of wind from the chest is overcome by providing the cell or tube to absorb the unsteadiness before it reaches the languid.   It seems to me to be more than a bit ironic that these good things happen via attempting to "slow down" an organ action -- when for years we all seemed in search of a "faster and faster" action. Go figure.   John also wrote: >>While I would expect any resultant change in pipe speech to be extremely >>small, I would not think it was possible to rule out the possibility >>that it might have some effect.   Indeed, these "changes" in pipe speech are quite subtle in many cases -- many organists or listeners would never hear a difference between one and the other. I, myself, *do* believe that the differences exist nonetheless.   Hopefully, all of this rambling makes some sense. I'll look forward to further discussion of this thread!   Cheers!   Tim Bovard Nichols and Simpson, Inc. Little Rock AR     =20   =20        
(back) Subject: Resiner Palette Valve Problems From: "Bob Kinner" <rkinner@one.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:41:50 -0500   I'm having trouble getting 1-1/8" 40-ohm Resiner 601 palette valves to open on 6" wind and 14 (almost 15) volts. According to the design chart, at 14V these valves should open at 8" or so. We have tried lowering the pressure to see at what point the valve would reliably open; result 3". I also have cases where, on the same windchest, one valve will open and a second - with the same size hole in the topboard - will not. Giving a "finger assist" will allow the valve to open.   Any clues as to what's going on here? I have checked the voltage at the chest. I have not checked the current drawn by the valves or the resistance of the valves; is it possible that some valves may be mismarked and are actually 60 or 90 ohms?   I'm not sure yet - need to recheck - but it appears that some 1" 40 ohm valves may not be opening at 14V - these should open to 14" according to the chart.   I could put two magents in tandem on the pipes that won't open but that seems redundant.   Clues?   Bob   -- Bob Kinner AA8FH rkinner@one.net "If at first you don't succeed, switch to power tools." Red Green      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Questions/"Replys" From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:26:18 -0600   I too have been following with interest. However, the subject seemed to move from relays to pipe valves. To be brief, my thoughts are relays would not affect speech because they do not directly control the wind supply. The type of pipe valves used would directly affect the way the wind enters the pipe. (Sorry I don't have my dictionary handy and always have a problem with effect and affect.) William D. "Bill" Babcock WDBabcock@msn.com wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us My goal is to be the person my dog thinks I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Organ Questions/"Replys"     At 11/10/00 10:56 PM, Sebastian wrote:   >> Change of ACTION TYPE, from slider-and-pallet soundboards to pitman action, >> or pitman action to electromechanical, CAN cause changes in pipe speech. >> This is why the use of electromechanical actions in place of existing >> electropneumatic actions does NOT constitute restoration, nor does it >> constitute the preservation of an instrument's sound. >> >> Likewise, mounting facade pipes on new actions directly below their feet, >> when in the original historic installation they were tubed off some distance >> from the main toeboard, can result in speech changes, notably in speed and >> harmonic content of attack transients.   And John Speller added later:   >Yes and no. One would think that while it is possible that a solid >state relay might be faster than an electro-pneumatic one, that is not >going to change the pipe speech, since it is still the rate of opening >of the valve that is all important, and with a solid state control >system it is thus just a question of a simple on/off operation. > >BUT. The keying does have an effect on the pipe speech. For example, >putting diodes into the system will change the hysteresis >characteristics of the magnet, and thus the operation of the valve. >That is how Wicks overcame the problem of valve bounce in their old >direct electric =AE actions. Even in an electro-pneumatic system, the >rate at which the magnet vents the primary and hence the pouch may have >an effect (albeit a marginal one) on the rate at which the pouch >operates, and thus the pipe speech. The relay is part of the total >system, and as such can affect the way in which the magnet vents.     Greetings, friends!   This has been an interesting thread, with good points made by nearly all correspondents. One thing I haven't seen yet, (though several have come quite close) I have actually *heard* myself, and here follows my understanding of the logic involved.   When dealing with electro-mechanical pipe valves (where the pipes are directly over the valves, with marginal or no "expansion cells" in the toeboards), a change from electromechanical to solid-state relay equipment most definitely can make a difference in the speech characteristics of the pipes. This difference is, for the most part, in the initial speech of the pipe itself -- nothing at all to the sustained tone afterward. These are the "attack transients" that Sebatian mentions.   An e-m relay is a simple mechanical switch -- its output being 'all off' to 'full on' instantaneously. When used to control e-m pipe valves, the valve magnets operate just the same way -- 'fully closed' to 'fully open' in a flash. This results in the languids of the pipes being presented with a quite-sudden "blast" of wind from the chest -- which can make the initial speech of the pipes have a bit of a "spit" or "cough" (for lack of better terms) as the air column is set into motion. Note that I am not referring to "chiff" -- it is a different sort of very brief "unsteadiness" (perhaps "wiggle"?) as the wind in the pipe settles into its pattern of flow through the windway.   If the same e-m relay controls an electropneumatic chest under the same pipe, the affect will likely not be in evidence, due to the relative *slower* response of the valve to its magnet being energized. Here, unlike the e-m valve, several things must happen before the valve seat begins to move [the coil is energized, the armature moves, (perhaps) a primary action has to operate, the wind under the pouch is allowed to begin to exhaust and starts to do so, and THEN the valve itself starts to open]. This action, though of course quite rapid, is not nearly as immediate as a plain e-m valve opening. Thus, the valve itself opens in a gentler (slower) fashion, and the undesired "cough" does not present itself, as the wind entering the pipe does so in a smoother and gentler flow.   Going back to the e-m chest, if one replaces the e-m relay with a solid-state example, the output current going to the valve coils can also behave in a "softer" fashion, thereby allowing the e-m valves to open in a slightly more-controlled (slower) fashion (and thus starting to mimic the response of the e-p valve action again). Amongst other things, this is also a handy way around "valve bounce".   The use of expansion cells in a e-m toeboard also helps to alleviate this phenomenon, as does the practice of placing large pipes in a "tubed-off" location (vs. directly over their valves). Here, the function of "smoothing out" the initial blast of wind from the chest is overcome by providing the cell or tube to absorb the unsteadiness before it reaches the languid.   It seems to me to be more than a bit ironic that these good things happen via attempting to "slow down" an organ action -- when for years we all seemed in search of a "faster and faster" action. Go figure.   John also wrote: >>While I would expect any resultant change in pipe speech to be extremely >>small, I would not think it was possible to rule out the possibility >>that it might have some effect.   Indeed, these "changes" in pipe speech are quite subtle in many cases -- many organists or listeners would never hear a difference between one and the other. I, myself, *do* believe that the differences exist nonetheless.   Hopefully, all of this rambling makes some sense. I'll look forward to further discussion of this thread!   Cheers!   Tim Bovard Nichols and Simpson, Inc. Little Rock AR                   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org            
(back) Subject: Re: Resiner Palette Valve Problems From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:45:40 EST   In a message dated 11/11/00 3:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, = rkinner@one.net writes:   << I'm having trouble getting 1-1/8" 40-ohm Resiner 601 palette valves to open on 6" wind and 14 (almost 15) volts. >>   This may seem like a stupid question but, are there any pipes on the = chest?   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards? From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:40:50 -0600   OK I'm replying to my own post. I sometimes talk to my self too. ;-). I guess you all can move me to the column with the "pipeheads" of various stripe, but I can understand the setterboard and have a prayer of repairing it should it get temperamental. I haven't a prayer with the digital type if it goes goofy.   The Wicks work that explains the paper pipes is his book "Organ Building for Armatures." No one has tried it, or no one will admit it. Off list replies will be held confidential. William D. "Bill" Babcock WDBabcock@msn.com wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us My goal is to be the person my dog thinks I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:31 PM Subject: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards?     > Has anyone followed Mark Wicks' instructions for building paper > organ pipes. Did it work? What kind of results did you get? > Worth the effort? > > 2. Have any of you built a setter board for a combination > action? My concerns are: how heavy duty switches do I need for > 70 drawknobs plus the usual couplers for 3 manuals and pedal? > Do I need a relay between the switches and the drawknob > solenoids? or just a junction strip to bring the wires together > before the wire to the stop knob? > > Thanks > William D. "Bill" Babcock > WDBabcock@msn.com > wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us > My goal is to be the person > my dog thinks I am. > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards? From: "Ray Thursby" <raythursby@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:18:59 -0800   Bill Babcock writes: "The Wicks work that explains the paper pipes is his book "Organ Building for Armatures."   Electric actions can do anything, can't they!!!   Ray Thursby    
(back) Subject: Fw: Resiner Palette Valve Problems From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:29:36 -0500   If there *are* pipes on the chest, try filing a v-shaped cut on the = toe-hole to relieve some pressure.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Resiner Palette Valve Problems     > In a message dated 11/11/00 3:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, rkinner@one.net > writes: > > << > I'm having trouble getting 1-1/8" 40-ohm Resiner 601 palette valves to > open on 6" wind and 14 (almost 15) volts. >> > > This may seem like a stupid question but, are there any pipes on the chest? > > Alan B > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Fw: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards? From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:34:37 -0500   That's precisely the reason why I chose to keep my pneumatic setterboard = as is- I understand it even when it acts-up, but the solid-state stuff is gibberish. My own fault perhaps, for not making a concerted effort in exploring resistors and transistors. At *least* pneumatic actions move- and one can see where a problem may = lie.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: WDBabcock <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards?     > OK I'm replying to my own post. I sometimes talk to my self > too. ;-). I guess you all can move me to the column with the > "pipeheads" of various stripe, but I can understand the > setterboard and have a prayer of repairing it should it get > temperamental. I haven't a prayer with the digital type if it > goes goofy. > > The Wicks work that explains the paper pipes is his book "Organ > Building for Armatures." No one has tried it, or no one will > admit it. Off list replies will be held confidential. > William D. "Bill" Babcock > WDBabcock@msn.com > wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us > My goal is to be the person > my dog thinks I am. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:31 PM > Subject: Paper Pipes?/ Setter boards? > > > > Has anyone followed Mark Wicks' instructions for building > paper > > organ pipes. Did it work? What kind of results did you get? > > Worth the effort? > > > > 2. Have any of you built a setter board for a combination > > action? My concerns are: how heavy duty switches do I need > for > > 70 drawknobs plus the usual couplers for 3 manuals and pedal? > > Do I need a relay between the switches and the drawknob > > solenoids? or just a junction strip to bring the wires > together > > before the wire to the stop knob? > > > > Thanks > > William D. "Bill" Babcock > > WDBabcock@msn.com > > wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us > > My goal is to be the person > > my dog thinks I am. > > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & > related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >