PipeChat Digest #1658 - Sunday, November 12, 2000


Fw: Organ Questions/"Replys"

  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>

Re: Resiner Palette Valve Problems

  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>


(back) Subject: Fw: Organ Questions/"Replys" From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:39:17 -0500   Not only the type of pipe valves effecting/affecting pipe-speech, but also toeboard channeling -if there *is* any.   Wicks, et al are a direct wind-shot from valve-to-pipe- whereas Wurli, Barton, Skinner, Welte, et al have channeling in between.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: WDBabcock <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Organ Questions/"Replys"     > I too have been following with interest. However, the subject > seemed to move from relays to pipe valves. To be brief, my > thoughts are relays would not affect speech because they do not > directly control the wind supply. The type of pipe valves used > would directly affect the way the wind enters the pipe. (Sorry > I don't have my dictionary handy and always have a problem with > effect and affect.) > William D. "Bill" Babcock > WDBabcock@msn.com > wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us > My goal is to be the person > my dog thinks I am. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: Organ Questions/"Replys" > > > At 11/10/00 10:56 PM, Sebastian wrote: > > >> Change of ACTION TYPE, from slider-and-pallet soundboards to > pitman action, > >> or pitman action to electromechanical, CAN cause changes in > pipe speech. > >> This is why the use of electromechanical actions in place of > existing > >> electropneumatic actions does NOT constitute restoration, nor > does it > >> constitute the preservation of an instrument's sound. > >> > >> Likewise, mounting facade pipes on new actions directly below > their feet, > >> when in the original historic installation they were tubed > off some distance > >> from the main toeboard, can result in speech changes, notably > in speed and > >> harmonic content of attack transients. > > And John Speller added later: > > >Yes and no. One would think that while it is possible that a > solid > >state relay might be faster than an electro-pneumatic one, that > is not > >going to change the pipe speech, since it is still the rate of > opening > >of the valve that is all important, and with a solid state > control > >system it is thus just a question of a simple on/off operation. > > > >BUT. The keying does have an effect on the pipe speech. For > example, > >putting diodes into the system will change the hysteresis > >characteristics of the magnet, and thus the operation of the > valve. > >That is how Wicks overcame the problem of valve bounce in their > old > >direct electric =AE actions. Even in an electro-pneumatic > system, the > >rate at which the magnet vents the primary and hence the pouch > may have > >an effect (albeit a marginal one) on the rate at which the > pouch > >operates, and thus the pipe speech. The relay is part of the > total > >system, and as such can affect the way in which the magnet > vents. > > > Greetings, friends! > > This has been an interesting thread, with good points made by > nearly all > correspondents. One thing I haven't seen yet, (though several > have come > quite close) I have actually *heard* myself, and here follows > my > understanding of the logic involved. > > When dealing with electro-mechanical pipe valves (where the > pipes are > directly over the valves, with marginal or no "expansion cells" > in the > toeboards), a change from electromechanical to solid-state relay > equipment > most definitely can make a difference in the speech > characteristics of the > pipes. This difference is, for the most part, in the initial > speech of the > pipe itself -- nothing at all to the sustained tone afterward. > These are > the "attack transients" that Sebatian mentions. > > An e-m relay is a simple mechanical switch -- its output being > 'all off' to > 'full on' instantaneously. When used to control e-m pipe > valves, the valve > magnets operate just the same way -- 'fully closed' to 'fully > open' in a > flash. This results in the languids of the pipes being > presented with a > quite-sudden "blast" of wind from the chest -- which can make > the initial > speech of the pipes have a bit of a "spit" or "cough" (for lack > of better > terms) as the air column is set into motion. Note that I am not > referring > to "chiff" -- it is a different sort of very brief > "unsteadiness" (perhaps > "wiggle"?) as the wind in the pipe settles into its pattern of > flow through > the windway. > > If the same e-m relay controls an electropneumatic chest under > the same > pipe, the affect will likely not be in evidence, due to the > relative > *slower* response of the valve to its magnet being energized. > Here, unlike > the e-m valve, several things must happen before the valve seat > begins to > move [the coil is energized, the armature moves, (perhaps) a > primary action > has to operate, the wind under the pouch is allowed to begin to > exhaust and > starts to do so, and THEN the valve itself starts to open]. > This action, > though of course quite rapid, is not nearly as immediate as a > plain e-m > valve opening. Thus, the valve itself opens in a gentler > (slower) fashion, > and the undesired "cough" does not present itself, as the wind > entering the > pipe does so in a smoother and gentler flow. > > Going back to the e-m chest, if one replaces the e-m relay with > a > solid-state example, the output current going to the valve coils > can also > behave in a "softer" fashion, thereby allowing the e-m valves to > open in a > slightly more-controlled (slower) fashion (and thus starting to > mimic the > response of the e-p valve action again). Amongst other things, > this is > also a handy way around "valve bounce". > > The use of expansion cells in a e-m toeboard also helps to > alleviate this > phenomenon, as does the practice of placing large pipes in a > "tubed-off" > location (vs. directly over their valves). Here, the function > of > "smoothing out" the initial blast of wind from the chest is > overcome by > providing the cell or tube to absorb the unsteadiness before it > reaches the > languid. > > It seems to me to be more than a bit ironic that these good > things happen > via attempting to "slow down" an organ action -- when for years > we all > seemed in search of a "faster and faster" action. Go figure. > > John also wrote: > >>While I would expect any resultant change in pipe speech to be > extremely > >>small, I would not think it was possible to rule out the > possibility > >>that it might have some effect. > > Indeed, these "changes" in pipe speech are quite subtle in many > cases -- > many organists or listeners would never hear a difference > between one and > the other. I, myself, *do* believe that the differences exist > nonetheless. > > Hopefully, all of this rambling makes some sense. I'll look > forward to > further discussion of this thread! > > Cheers! > > Tim Bovard > Nichols and Simpson, Inc. > Little Rock AR > > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Resiner Palette Valve Problems From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:34:30 -0600   At 11/11/00 03:41 PM, you wrote: >I'm having trouble getting 1-1/8" 40-ohm Resiner 601 palette valves to >open on 6" wind and 14 (almost 15) volts. <snip> >Any clues as to what's going on here?   Hi, Bob --   I'd look at the armature gaps on those Reisners. If the end of the armature is too far away from the polepiece of the coil, you won't get the things to work until you give them enough juice to fry the coils. I doubt you want *that*...<g>   Check to see if they all work reliably with the wind *off* -- if so, this is a clue that perhaps they need regapped. Your statement about a "finger assist allowing them to work" leads me to these thoughts.   Ideally, as I understand it, the tip of the armature should be in an area *just shy of* to *just overlapping* the polepiece of the coil itself. The fix for this can be as simple as a slight bending of the magnet mounting bracket towards the underside of the toeboard.   Good luck!   Tim Bovard Little Rock, AR