PipeChat Digest #1630 - Saturday, October 21, 2000 Re: Hendrick Andriessen: Sonata da Chiesa by "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com> Resultants by "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Noiseless Preludes/Postludes by <TubaMagna@aol.com> RE: volunteer organists by "Randy Terry" <email@example.com> Re: Appreciation by "Donald Hinckley" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Organist shortage...... by "Donald Pole" <email@example.com> Re: Resultants by "Bob Scarborough" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: volunteer organists by <ORGANUT@aol.com> Re: Appreciation by "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> The Case of Skinner 766 by "Will Scarboro" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Appreciation by "Administrator" <email@example.com> RE: volunteer organists by "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Who is this person? by <Devon3000@aol.com> Re: The Case of Skinner 766 by "Rebekah Ingram" <email@example.com> Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> by <Cremona502@cs.com> Re: The Case of Skinner 766 by <Cremona502@cs.com> Re: talking in church by <Cremona502@cs.com> Re: Organist shortage...... by <Cremona502@cs.com> Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> by "Bob Scarborough" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Organist shortage...... by "Bob Scarborough" <email@example.com> Re: OK, I'll take the plunge by <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Hendrick Andriessen: Sonata da Chiesa From: "Robert Lind" <Robert_Lind@cch.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:43:14 -0500 Karl, I take both of these pieces out every few years, go through them, and dutifully put them back--not quite convinced that I want to = expend the time needed to learn them (and to play them on an instrument that wouldn't quite do them justice, for that matter). A few years back I did learn and play his Toccata from 1917. I played it as a postlude and felt compelled to do some cutting. Perhaps you'll spur me on to look at more of his things again. There is no doubt that he is a worthwhile composer, and I certainly will play = the toccata again. I mentioned the Toccata, among other things, via organchat = to Carlo some months ago when he was looking for some Dutch music to present = in recital. Robert_Lind@cch.com Subject: Hendrick Andriessen: Sonata da Chiesa In high school years as a budding organist, I received part of a recently-deceased organist's library, including the following: Andriessen, Hendrick, Sonata da Chiesa. E. B. Marks, 1926. It's really a theme and variatons with a Finale section before a closing full-organ restatement of the theme. I've not looked carefully, but at surface level I see no thematic relationship of the theme to the finale section. Does anyone play this piece? I don't see it listed anywhere and have not played it myself for perhaps 10 or 20 years. My older brother bought me a copy of the same composer's "Premier Choral" in the '50's in Amsterdam, recommended to him as an example of good current Dutch music. Anyone play that? Just curious. Thanx. Cordially, Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA
(back) Subject: Resultants From: "Randy Terry" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:46:42 -0700 Most 32' flue resultants seem to work best in the lower range (from low G down.) I like the ones who wire the softer 16' as the quint, and personally, if the room is live the Resultant 32' can be quite effective. The organ I currently play has the main Subbass wired with its own Quint = and as you get in the upper range of the low octave the pitches tend to seperate. I hope that when I rewire it to play the soft 16' as the 10-2/3 that won't be quite as noticable. On the other hand I have had first hand experience where a real Skinner = 32' Bourdon was so burried that it was more of a "Holy Spirit" rush of wind sound than a pitch. The same organ had an added Antiphonal with a 32' Resultant that worked better than the real thing. I also like some of the final Mollers where there was a 32' Reed Cornet - low octave was flue harmonics and Reeds starting at 16' C (#13 on the pedalboard.) I REALLY like some of the electronic 32' Flue and Reed bottom octaves I = have heard. No shame here since they tend to be better than the real thing in many cases! Randy Terry
(back) Subject: Noiseless Preludes/Postludes From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:49:13 EDT At The First Presbyterian Church in New York City, the service programs = not only list all of the service music, but sometimes give programme notes on = the major works beings presented. There is a printed admonition that the = Prelude constitutes an integral part of the worship experience, and that attentive = silence and respect is appropriate. Postludes are attended, and usually followed by applause. Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: RE: volunteer organists From: "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:54:28 -0700 There is room for both. I personally appreciate the person who offers = their gifts of music as part of their personal stewardship, whether they are trained or not. If I could afford to do so I may choose this route since = it would give me a LOT more clout and if I choose to take a vacation or time off I could do so at will. But for now, I am paid and loving the larger apartment and 2nd (new) car the additional income offers! Randy Terry -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of Bob Elms Strange but I play for services because I love doing it. I have never been paid for doing it. I also train the choir. It is a very large part of my life.
(back) Subject: Re: Appreciation From: "Donald Hinckley" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:42:57 -0400 Robert Clooney wrote: > > I have almost completed 1.5 yrs at the local UMC. Not once has anyone = ever said > how much they enjoyed a prelude, postlude, offertory or hymn = accompaniment. All > the time I spend on careful registration, changes during a hymn, and = musical > selections matching texts is all for naught. > The organ is muzak for church. It makes pleasant noise at the = appropriate times; > a little loud at the end so they know when to head out the door. > > Still waiting for one compliment. Dear Robert Clooney-How crass of your congregations! I love the pipe = organ, and I know when organists are making special efforts and treatments = for the congregation- and I always point such things out to make sure that = everyone understands. Further, I make the congregation sit until the = postlude is finished, until the organist has put his/her final punctuation = mark on the end of the service. This gives the organist opportunity to = show the skills he/she possesses. No no one has ever objected to this = practise. Many of my congregations-average 25 in number- go to the organ = loft to greet and compliment the organist. May your congregation rise to = the Christian level of appreciation soon. Rev. Don Hinckley, All Souls Universalist Church, Oakland Maine. Happy = member of PipeChat. > > Robert Clooney (Middletown, NY)
(back) Subject: Organist shortage...... From: "Donald Pole" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:50:06 -0400 Bruce said: "After being unceremoniously fired from First Methodist - Gainesville = (with two days notice), I decided to stop the church music rat race ..." Bruce ---did you really want a firing ceremony? Do you actually have a sword that they could have broken in two....? Don http://www.pandk.com
(back) Subject: Re: Resultants From: "Bob Scarborough" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:07:51 At 12:46 PM 10/20/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I hope that when I rewire it to play the soft 16' as the 10-2/3 >that won't be quite as noticable.<snip> Bear in mind that it's the power of the fundamentals of both the unison = and the quint that determine the power of the resultant. If the power of the quint is reduced, so is the power of the resultant reduce proportionately. People with radio or carrier telephony experience will remember this law = as "modulation index". The same principle applies; one can't get "something for nothing"! One needs to have fundamentals of both unison and quint at the same power for the maximum resultant effect, and the pipes must be in fairly close proximity. The most successful I've heard (felt, actually) were when a fairly loud 16' open flue was used with a fat scaled but loud bourdon. You'll still be missing some harmonics of the 32' series = however, but not nearly as many as when a stopped 16' is used for the unison. >On the other hand I have had first hand experience where a real Skinner = 32' >Bourdon was so burried that it was more of a "Holy Spirit" rush of wind >sound than a pitch.<snip> The same laws of physics that govern the success of loudspeaker systems govern the success of bass pipes. Placement against a thick, non-yielding wall will always produce the best result of projecting these long (64' at CCC) waveforms into the listening space. Sound at these frequencies is completely omnidirectional, so one must be careful when placing pipes or speakers to avoid phase cancellation. Improperly placed, a reflected wavefront can easily meet the direct one and cancel the effect. In = smaller venues, standing waves can create complete cancellation, also. A weak chamber (or building) wall, made of studs and drywall or sheetrock, will "eat" tons of bass energy. Worse still would be placement in the middle of a chamber, or even worse yet, just behind the grilles, as was done with the unsuccessful 1930 Hook and Hastings at Riverside Church. In this case, not only was the 32' octave compromised, but the entire organ was "walled off" by the huge pipe structures. This organ spelled the end of Hook and Hastings as a serious contender, and was universally declared = a failure. The ultra low frequency energy emitted by huge bass pipes easily "gets around" smaller ranks in front of them, unless the airspace is completely blocked in a crammed chamber. DeserTBoB
(back) Subject: Re: volunteer organists From: <ORGANUT@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:16:48 EDT In a message dated 10/20/2000 2:57:27 PM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: << There is room for both. I personally appreciate the person who offers = their gifts of music as part of their personal stewardship, whether they are trained or not. If I could afford to do so I may choose this route since = it would give me a LOT more clout and if I choose to take a vacation or time off I could do so at will. But for now, I am paid and loving the larger apartment and 2nd (new) car the additional income offers! Randy Terry >> Randy I was offered a salary, but declined. The church needs it more = than I do right now. I did this so I can call the shots. As long as it remains something that is fun and pleasant to do and the congregation enjoys it, I = will continue. Plus it is a good social experience to gain. If it = becomes something else, I can walk away without feeling guilty. Later, Phil L.
(back) Subject: Re: Appreciation From: "Bob Elms" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 07:03:05 +0800 I play for Saturday evening mass at a local Catholic Church frequently. = Their hymns(?) are appalling but their appreciation of my playing is expressed = by many of the congregation and the clergy. Last week when I arrived two elderly ladies met me at the door and = said:"We DO enjoy your playing." We all three entered the building to find a guitar group = all set up to play for the service. Someone had forgotten to tell me about them. The = two ladies' faces dropped and they said as one:"Oh what a pity!!". That made = my day! Bob Elms. Robert_Lind@cch.com wrote: > Sometimes you're dealing with God's frozen people. I'm in a very warm, = friendly, > open, huggy ELCA congregation, and they can be embarrassingly effusive = at times. > It is most unusual for me not to get at least one "thank-you" at the end = of a > service every week. Usually, also, applause at the end of the postlude.
(back) Subject: The Case of Skinner 766 From: "Will Scarboro" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:24:34 -0400 Dear List, In recent weeks I have stumbled on a very interesting mystery that I thought you'd all be interested in. One day a few weeks ago I was helping my friend and fellow organ student Shane do some maintenance on his church = organ at the Episcopal Student Chapel. The organ is a 1950's Basset = Skinner with 2 manuals and 4 ranks unified everywhere. While working I noticed = some writing on the smaller of the two sets of swell shades. In very familiar handwriting was written "Echo 766". I thought to myself that this might be = a Skinner opus number especially since the writing looked similar to what = I had seen in other Skinner organs. So I checked the Skinner opus list and found the following, " Residence - Mrs. William H. Dane 2/15 Moved possibly to Florida State College for Women in 1938." That last part got = my attention. I knew for a fact that the Florida State College for Women (now Florida State University) had in addition to its own 4 manual Skinner acquired two = additional Skinner residence organs at some point from donors. One was installed in organ professor Dr. Ramona Beard's studio, and the other in the University auditorium (which originally housed the 4 manual Skinner until the late 40's when the big Skinner was moved to Opperman Music = Hall). So was 766 the organ in Dr. Beard's Studio? If so, the Echo might have been redundant. Fellow list member Bud, who studied with Dr. Beard in the late 50's stated that there was no Echo organ in Dr. Beard's Studio. So if = 766 was the studio organ what happened to the Echo organ? I figured out two possible ideas: 1. Somehow the parts were either given to the maintenance people who took care of FSU's organs or it somehow got back to = E.M. Skinner and Son (remote); or 2. somehow FSU held onto the parts and the swell shades ended up in the Episcopal Chapel organ. But how? I still don't know, and not too much is known about the Episcopal Chapel organ. So what happened to 766? If 766 really was one of the organs the FSU = had then, this is what happened. Organ professor Dr. Michael Corzine stated that the Skinner organs were all here when he arrived at FSU in 1973. The studio organ was in sad shape and barely worked. It wasn't used at all. = The roll playing mechanism had been removed at some point. There were various parts stored in the music building including another Skinner console that might have been from the university auditorium organ. By the mid 70's the Skinner's were gone. The Big Skinner was sold and replaced by a Holtkamp. I guess I might never know if 766 was at FSU or if those echo shades really are from 766. Alas, the one person who might be able to tell me = more about this, Dr. Ramona Beard died in 1996. Sincerely, Will Scarboro Organ Student - Florida State University
(back) Subject: Re: Appreciation From: "Administrator" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:32:59 -0500 At 10/20/00 01:00 PM, Robert Lind wrote: >Lest you're taking too much to heart the comments of the anonymous toelz, = who >has been spending endless time telling us on this list about the myriad ways we >can and should fail at our jobs because we're not doing things his/her = way, >these hoary exhortations can be taken with more than a meager portion of >sodium. Dear Robert and List -- Fear not -- for as of yesterday evening sometime, "toelz the anonymous" unsubscribed himself from Pipechat. Good thing he did actually -- I was getting just a bit fed up with his pontificating, and was prepraring to boot him myself... Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...! <g> Tim Pipechat Co-Administrator <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: RE: volunteer organists From: "Randy Terry" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:49:29 -0700 -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of ORGANUT@aol.com >> Randy I was offered a salary, but declined. The church needs it more = than I do right now. I did this so I can call the shots. As long as it remains something that is fun and pleasant to do and the congregation enjoys it, I will continue. Plus it is a good social experience to gain. If it = becomes something else, I can walk away without feeling guilty. >> I am in sort of the same situation now. I make a generous salary. The Rector gave up a raise to hire me. I have paid to have the piano bass restrung, and I am helping finance the organ work. So in some ways the church is getting back its investment. I am finding it interesting that = so many are feeling the same way I do about the way we are sometimes treated = as church workers. I often think that if MEMBERS of a church behaved the way they (sometimes) do in church in their businesses they wouldn't last too long! Randy Terry
(back) Subject: Who is this person? From: <Devon3000@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:34:25 EDT As one of the "glitzy" church musicians (who was hired because a lot of = good music was expected by the congregation), my senior minister, until he = retired a couple years ago, told me (whenever I got concerned about an unsigned message from anyone, congregational member or not) to treat it with the = same respect the writer gave me by not signing his/her name. In other words, = the messages have no meaning or credibility whatsoever. Just because a few correct insights are included (which could already be gleaned from the archives), these posts are a complete waste of bandwidth, = and I am going to use the delete key for this non-person, and I would = plead with the listowners that people who make these statements without = identifying themselves should not be allowed on this list. There's no credibility in hiding behind the capabilities of the Internet, and this should end now. Devon Hollingsworth, in Chicago Suburb It's only fair that we know who we are talking to.
(back) Subject: Re: The Case of Skinner 766 From: "Rebekah Ingram" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:11:50 -0400 Oh, THAT message! ;-) Let me know if you find anything out. -Rebekah
(back) Subject: Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:43:07 EDT In a message dated 10/20/00 3:04:13 PM !!!First Boot!!!, = firstname.lastname@example.org writes: << I shall leave that to your imagination! P.S. you obviously have had PLENTY of Merlot, Brucy! unsigned on purpose!! >> My imagination, huh! well, I hope you've enjoyed your life as much as I have! Amazing what Merlot can do!! heeheehee Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502
(back) Subject: Re: The Case of Skinner 766 From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:43:13 EDT Will, One remote possibility might be to contact someone at Riverside Baptist Church in Jacksonville, FL to see if any of opus 766 made it in any for to = that church. They purchased much of (in not all of) the FSU organ and it = was added to the EMS in the 70s. You might also check with the folks at = Ontko and Young, who did the rebuilding recently. Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502
(back) Subject: Re: talking in church From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:43:10 EDT People visiting with each other is a good sigh, especially at the coffee hour! Notice that people are not usually chatting with visitors before worship, but with family or friends. As a worshiper, it really twists = my rosary to have people around me chatting when I'm trying to pray and = prepare to worship. In a message dated 10/20/00 3:07:43 PM !!!First Boot!!!, = email@example.com writes: << I view people visiting as a positive aspect of church life. Although it is, I admit, a problem for those of = us who would like a totally meditative atmosphere. >> Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:43:12 EDT In a message dated 10/20/00 8:51:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!, = firstname.lastname@example.org writes: << Bruce ---did you really want a firing ceremony? Do you actually have a sword that they could have broken in two....? >> A committee meeting might have been nice. I would have like to have = broken the minister's neck in two, however. What an ass! Alas, he was fired = two months later, but in the Methodist church that is spelled R.A.I.S.E! What = a system! The worse they are the quicker they move up! Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502
(back) Subject: Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> From: "Bob Scarborough" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 00:37:04 At 01:43 AM 10/21/2000 EDT, you wrote: >My imagination, huh! well, I hope you've enjoyed your life as much as I = >have! Amazing what Merlot can do!! heeheehee<schniip> Uh oh...watch out. bReWsE is sloshing tonight! dB
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: "Bob Scarborough" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 00:39:45 At 01:43 AM 10/21/2000 EDT, bReWsE's e-mail client wrote: >In a message dated 10/20/00 8:51:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!, = email@example.com >writes: Uh oh...methinks there's a virus or worm afoot here. What's with this !!!First Boot!!! thing showing up in peoples' e-mail headers lately? Anyone got a clue? Clueless in the DeserT
(back) Subject: Re: OK, I'll take the plunge From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 03:33:03 -0500 Re: the "beginning organist" et al <observations and opinions> posts: From: <email@example.com> > a pity you allowed your obvious disenchantment with what > I would believe to be a small minority of players to cloud > the validity of what you wished to express. Although I responded to the first post, "service playing", and did take the time to read through the sequels, the author of same, while offering basic suggestions to the "beginning [church] organist", seems unable to separate the teaching and/or dissemination of knowledge from vitriol. Indeed, there were, are, and will be egocentric persons who find their way into church music. There are the same "type" persons in EVERY profession. Church music and playing the organ is not a magnet for all of the "egoists" on this planet. There are some, including clergy, who can most assuredly qualify as egocentric, as long as we're talking about the "church". But do these represent the whole? I think not, and then, so what? If what other people are doing, or for that matter not doing, so influence one's thoughts as to turn what might have been an interesting basic (all will not agree - yes) primer on playing the organ in a church/liturgical setting into a series of "soapbox" lectures about egotistical church musicians, then I too question the motivation(s) of the writer. Would it not have been better to make separate posts: 1) useful suggestions for playing the organ in church; 2) what <<<I>>> (personally) don't like about "egotistical" church musicians who play the organ...? Further, I suggest that <firstname.lastname@example.org> is just as guilty of "egoism" as those cited in the posts. MY experience is very different from this person, and I've definitely been around the proverbial "block". I'm sorry, actually, that theirs has been such and so colored their views. <email@example.com> wrote: > I posted these things without a signature for two reasons. > First, I don't give out my name on the internet This forum isn't Usenet... and it's a simple matter to track down the mail address - like <cetlink> in Rock Hill, SC, 29732 - 803-327-2754... should one desire... ;-) > no one knows--I could be the organist at a major Episcopal > parish somewhere in a large city or I could be the organist > in a smaller town. I could make my living teaching organ > at a local college, or I could make my living as a CPA, > or maybe I am also a Priest, who knows? Personally, I could care less if any or all of the above apply, as we are talking of "opinions" and "observations". > I'm promoting ideas, not a personality. Oh, but you are indeed promoting "a personality" - yours - and I am mine. While each of us has our own, and I wrote that in my first note, your posts equate those organists who don't fall into the spectrum of <your> criteria of "church" organists as: ego; an impediment to music program; center stage; detached from worship service-life of the church; flash and dash; and the "vocal organ world." What has been omitted, and is why I'm taking the time to write and disagree (in principal), is that there are many organists, who serve many and varied churches/parishes/temples in great humility and love for not only the "people", but their church, as well as the music they produce week after week - year after year, that do indeed NOT practice your personal, established criteria regarding what <is> and <is not> proper service playing, hymn playing, et al, who are very successful in this profession, well loved and respected by the "churches" and greater community they serve, who don't criticize those who, by choice or skill level, follow <firstname.lastname@example.org> prescribed method of "doing" church music. > Look at the responses my posts have generated. I said from > the outset that I was merely expressing my opinions. Indeed! This is a discussion list, is it not? > question a style of playing that, in basest terms, reduces > the organ to circus act entertainment, which is what, > by and large, the "vocal organ world" has become No, that's the Praise Bands... NOW, that's entertainment! ;-) > if they happen to play at a church of over 1000 members, > have an ego the size of the Titanic Uh OH! I served a church of 14,000 members and whilst I, like EVERY other human being, posses that "ego" thing (yourself included...), the "Titanic" was owned by the senior pastor. The rest of us on staff had to settle for a mere yacht. I would never presume to be the last word myself... but GEESH - lighten-up <email@example.com>... ;-) "A great many people think they are thinking; when in reality they are only rearranging their prejudices." ---Edward R. Murrow "You know nothing for sure... except the fact that you know nothing for sure." ---John F. Kennedy "Our understandings are always liable to error. Nature and certainty are very hard to come at, and infallibility is mere vanity and pretense." ---Marcus Antoninus "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful." ---Mae West Cheers! Scott Austin, Texas