PipeChat Digest #1631 - Sunday, October 22, 2000
 
Re: Noiseless Preludes/Postludes
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Organist shortage......
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Pipe Organ feature on Channel 13- NJ?
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Lucky
  by "Todd A. Phipps" <theb3nut@home.com>
The case of Skinner 766
  by "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Who is this glitzless stranger?
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Tacky Bruce <grin>
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Organist shortage......
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Tacky Bruce <grin>
  by "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com>
Re: Organist shortage......
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: volunteer organists
  by <LLWheels@aol.com>
RE: volunteer organists
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org>
Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ...
  by "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net>
Medinah Temple Austin
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: Organist shortage......
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ...
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
Re: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ...
  by "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net>
No mate ... It's Roo Hornes!
  by "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Noiseless Preludes/Postludes From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:01:55 -0400   SMG:   I'm delighted to see you on PipeChat--the place to be. I know many others also look forward to your posts.   Alan Freed, Parish Administrator St. Luke's Church, Restaurant Row, Manhattan   > From: TubaMagna@aol.com > Subject: Noiseless Preludes/Postludes > > At The First Presbyterian Church in New York City, the service programs = not > only list all of the service music, but sometimes give programme notes = on the > major works beings presented. There is a printed admonition that the = Prelude > constitutes an integral part of the worship experience, and that = attentive > silence and respect is appropriate. > > Postludes are attended, and usually followed by applause. > > Sebastian Matthaus Gluck > New York City > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 21:21:50 +0800   Hey! Hey! Hey!! Not so much of that!! I was a Methodist till they formed = the Uniting Church in Australia! We weren't like that!! Never paid their = organists though. Too poor! Bob E.   Cremona502@cs.com wrote:   > In a message dated 10/20/00 8:51:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!, = pandk@ciaccess.com > writes: > > << Bruce ---did you really want a firing ceremony? Do you actually have = a > sword that they could have broken in two....? >> > > A committee meeting might have been nice. I would have like to have = broken > the minister's neck in two, however. What an ass! Alas, he was fired = two > months later, but in the Methodist church that is spelled R.A.I.S.E! = What a > system! The worse they are the quicker they move up! > > Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com > in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . > Duncan, Miles, and Molly > visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE: http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ feature on Channel 13- NJ? From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:09:56 -0500   Contact Channel 13...they keep a program log and TV stations are = generally helpful in identifying prorgams that they have aired. I am assuming that CH13 is your local PBS station....they are usually doubly helpful as they have their hands out for donations most of the time. There are several video programs that fill that bill..."Voices in the Wind" by Canadian Broadcasting and "Pulling Out All Stops" which was a joint AGO, OHS, ATOS =   project several years ago...the last time I checked both videos were available through the Organ Historical Society Catolog.   jch     At 12:13 AM 10/20/00 -0400, you wrote: >Good Evening, Pipechatters > >At school today a fellow student told me about some sort of pipe organ >feature aired on Channel 13 within the past couple of days during the >evening hours. He said it was about how they built pipe organs. > >Anybody have more information on this? I'm very curious to know more. > >Thanks > >Jan VanDerStad > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Lucky From: "Todd A. Phipps" <theb3nut@home.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:21:30 -0400   on 10/20/00 8:53 AM, cpeery19@idt.net at cpeery19@idt.net wrote:   > I am also lucky! The congregation is very noisy for the prelude.   At my last church, I (a self-taught ear-playin' hack) was trying to play something reverent and meditative for a prelude. The pastor, oblivious to me, then proceeds to put on a loud pRazE bAnD CD through the PA. I almost left then....probably should have instead of waiting longer.   TP   --sola gratia----sola fide----soli Christo----soli Deo gloria-- Todd A. Phipps and his silly dogs Obie and Honey Christian folk/blues musician ** Photography nut ** Pit Bull guy theb3nut@home.com ** http://b3nut.tsx.org ** b3nut@mac.com    
(back) Subject: The case of Skinner 766 From: "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:28:17 -0400     > Will, >One remote possibility might be to contact someone at Riverside Baptist >Church in Jacksonville, FL to see if any of opus 766 made it in any for = to >that church. They purchased much of (in not all of) the FSU organ and it =   was >added to the EMS in the 70s. You might also check with the folks at Ontko >and Young, who did the rebuilding recently.   Bruce,   Riverside Baptist bought the big 4 manual Skinner in the mid 1970's for $10,005. They only used about half of the organ in the rebuild of their Skinner organ. The rest was sold. The Solo organ, parts of the Swell and Choir, harp, added Positiv organ and the Pedal Trombone unit survive in = the Riverside organ today. I played it back in March and really enjoyed = myself.   If I remember right the studio organ was either sold together or for = parts to someone. You may be asking yourself about the added positiv organ mentioned above. When the Skinner was bought a good chunk of it was prepared for including an Echo organ, Swell Mixture, and Solo Gross Flute. =   In 1931 the Echo organ was added to the original organ. It was unique in that it was situated in the balcony of the auditorium with its own 2 = manual console. A movable wall could be pulled around the Echo organ thus making it a practice organ (although I wonder what kind of music you could practice with a Chimney Flute, a pair of strings and a Vox Humana). = Anyway, when the new music building was built in the late 40's the organ was moved =   there. Since there was no room for the echo organ in Opperman Music Hall = it was placed in a practice room. Thus, there were extra draw knobs = available. When Dr. Beard arrived she made an effort over the years to add to the organ as money came available. This included a nice harp stop and the Positiv organ. The Skinner's placement in Opperman was not ideal. It sat = in lofts on the sides of the stage, and was quite muffled in the hall. The Swell organ (which was the back bone of the organ) was crammed into the corner of one of these lofts. When the positiv was added it was placed on the back wall of the stage and was the only division in the organ that spoke into the hall. I have been told that overall the organ was not one = of Skinner's better organs. By far the best stops in the organ were the Solo Gamba & celeste, English and French horns, and Tuba. The Trombone was also =   quite nice. They were blended quite nicely into the Riverside organ and work well with the rest of the Skinner stops.   Sincerely,   Will Scarboro    
(back) Subject: Who is this glitzless stranger? From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:00:18 EDT   In a message dated 10/21/00 1:35:10 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Devon3000@aol.com =   writes:   << As one of the "glitzy" church musicians >>   Well, just for the record, "glitzy" liturgical music, interludes during hymns, Gospel fanfares, and mystical communion music are what keep me = going to church during prime time. I appreciate the ultra-glitziness of the organist/director at the church I attend (and in whose choir I sing). Fortunately, our rector is moved by the "glitz" too, and also brings his = own appropriate "glitz" to worship. The neo-Calvinist movement has, in many =   places, stripped the church of her beauty. I firmly believe that God = has given people these talents for a very good reason.... remember, He is a jealous God! I thank Him daily for the "glitz" of life.   Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:00:25 EDT   In a message dated 10/21/00 7:40:22 AM !!!First Boot!!!, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << Uh oh...watch out. bReWsE is sloshing tonight! >>   TONIGHT!!!! Geez! After the hell I've been through installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - that wretched mess they call WindozeMe, I deserve a hearty binge! It is a =   program conceived for all of those people who managed to escape Y2K = problems. Now you can get every conceivable problem in ONE BOX for only $80. I = have in effect lost a week of my life dealing with this mess. It has tested = my Christian charity to the max.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. It = almost makes guitar music sound relaxing!!!   But I feel muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better now!! ;-)   Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:00:28 EDT   In a message dated 10/21/00 1:31:14 PM !!!First Boot!!!, elmsr@albanyis.com.au writes:   << Hey! Hey! Hey!! Not so much of that!! I was a Methodist till they = formed the Uniting Church in Australia! >>   Perhaps the Methodists in other countries know how to behave, but in the USofA it just ain't so! It is beyond political! I'll never work for = them again. Of course, worship is pretty much out of the question, too!   Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Tacky Bruce <grin> From: "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:49:38 -0400   Thanks for saving me $80 - Bill Gates is a genius, makes total junk and we = keep coming back for more all in false hope of a trouble free operating system.   Jerry   Cremona502@cs.com wrote:   > In a message dated 10/21/00 7:40:22 AM !!!First Boot!!!, > desertbob@rglobal.net writes: > > << Uh oh...watch out. bReWsE is sloshing tonight! >> > > TONIGHT!!!! Geez! After the hell I've been through installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > uninstalling - installing - uninstalling - reformatting - installing - > that wretched mess they call WindozeMe, I deserve a hearty binge! It is = a > program conceived for all of those people who managed to escape Y2K = problems. > Now you can get every conceivable problem in ONE BOX for only $80. I = have > in effect lost a week of my life dealing with this mess. It has tested = my > Christian charity to the max.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. It = almost > makes guitar music sound relaxing!!! > > But I feel muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better now!! ;-) > > Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com > in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . > Duncan, Miles, and Molly > visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:17:48   At 12:00 PM 10/21/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Perhaps the Methodists in other countries know how to behave, but in the >USofA it just ain't so! It is beyond political! I'll never work for = them >again. Of course, worship is pretty much out of the question, = too!<snip>   I think it's regional, more than anything. I worked for a few Methodist churches who were proud of their music programs and their organs and found them to be very supportive and quite fair. Of course, Ah think theyuhs somethin' about them suthuhnuhs dat JES' ain't RITE!   In other news: Former Prez Jimmy Carter finally renounced the Southern Baptists the other day, to the glee of more moderate factions. Look for a "schism" to occur between Texas and the rest of Suthuhn Baptism. After an unprecedented period of growth fueled by their investment in the "born-again" movement in the '70s (and their "secret" connections to so-called "independent" tilt-up/happy-clappy outfits), it looks like this Tower of Babel is about to fall.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: volunteer organists From: <LLWheels@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:08:18 EDT   In a message dated 10/21/2000 4:02:17 AM Central Daylight Time, = ORGANUT@AOL writes:   << Randy I was offered a salary, but declined. The church needs it more = than I do right now. I did this so I can call the shots. As long as it remains =   something that is fun and pleasant to do and the congregation enjoys it, = I will continue. Plus it is a good social experience to gain. If it = becomes something else, I can walk away without feeling guilty. >>   I respect your reasons for doing this but I must respectfully disagree = with your method. I feel that one does not do a church a favor by letting them think that something of value which most congregations must purchase, can = be had for free. Paying for an accomplished musician is part of the expense = of running a church, like paying the clergy, paying the sexton, paying for = gas and water and other expenses.   If you feel that they need the money more than you do, you always have the =   option to accept a salary and donate it back to the church. In this way, = the item of <musicians salary> is already in the budget and there will be no shock or disruption of their budget process should you leave, or, God = forbid, need the funds.   As far as your being able to call the shots....   The only way I can see that it makes a difference who calls the shots if = your are a volunteer is if you use <leaving> as a threat. That is the only difference between you and a paid musician. Threats, even veiled or = implied threats, are hardly the most productive way to maintain a relationship of = any kind. Threats, no matter how subtle, antagonize people and make them feel manipulated.   My immediate (paid) predecessor operated by threatening to leave whenever something didn't go just as he wanted it. He usually waited until holiday =   season, or some important service. One Holy Week, eight years ago, he threatened to quit, and the congregation had been threatened enough. They called his bluff. He expected them to be bereft at Easter. The pastor, however began calling around and learned that I had just moved to town and =   was looking for a position. I was hired immediately as an interim and = later, as permanent replacement. The same can happen to a volunteer. I saw it = happen in my parent's congregation. That congregation now budgets for a musician.   I do not suggest that you would treat a congregation this way, but that controlling the shots by being a volunteer leaves a congregation = vulnerable to someone who may abuse them. Think about it.       Larry L. Wheelock    
(back) Subject: RE: volunteer organists From: "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:52:59 -0700       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of LLWheels@aol.com   I respect your reasons for doing this but I must respectfully disagree = with your method. I feel that one does not do a church a favor by letting them think that something of value which most congregations must purchase, can = be had for free. Paying for an accomplished musician is part of the expense = of running a church, like paying the clergy, paying the sexton, paying for = gas and water and other expenses.   *****************************   This is part of the reason why I expect to be paid a fair salary for my work. I give back a good measure of my salary to the church I work for, = get some things I want for my music that they can not afford, and this is a win-win situation. However, being that this is a Church and some people want to donate their time/talent as part of their stewardship I don't look at this as helping churches expect something for nothing. That is the = fault of the ignorant leaders who choose to view things the way they do!! Sincerely, Randy Terry    
(back) Subject: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ... From: "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:18:27 -0700   Yes, I agree 98.132938% -- but how does this help the situation of lack of Theatre Organists ...     ----- Original Message ----- From: <JKVDP@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: 19 October, 2000 15:15 Subject: Re: Organist Shortage - 4 considerations     > Is there really an organist shortage - or are there significant reasons why some churches are always crying for an organist? > > From my experience in the Seattle area, no church in this area will go = for a long period of time without an organist if it offers the following - = put > these in any order you want: > > 1. The opportunity to do quality music. > 2. A cordial working environment - supportive staff doing its job, appreciative and contented congregation. > 3. A good pipe or digital organ installation. > 4. A salary equal to that of other professionals with similar training = and responsibilities. > > My experience in the Seattle area is that churches which offer the above will have a line of qualified candidates for an organ opening. > Jerry in Seattle                       ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________  
(back) Subject: Medinah Temple Austin From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 21:10:22 -0500   The impending sale of Medinah Temple to a group which intends to remodel the Temple building and adjacent Tree Studios into what they believe will be a commercially viable locations is getting closer. The fate of the 1915 =   Austin is still uncertain, but I understand that there is a church somewhere out west that is very interested. There is hope that a final concert on the organ which may take place in early December. There was = some discussion over having a recording made of the program and the question = was raised as to whether they would be much interest in this recording. The only certainty at this point is that the organ will be removed from the Temple. If a program which will be open to the public is planned I will make the information available. regards,   jch    
(back) Subject: Re: Organist shortage...... From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 23:18:22 EDT   In a message dated 10/21/00 6:22:31 PM !!!First Boot!!!, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << In other news: Former Prez Jimmy Carter finally renounced the Southern Baptists the other day, to the glee of more moderate factions. Look for = a "schism" to occur between Texas and the rest of Suthuhn Baptism. After = an unprecedented period of growth fueled by their investment in the "born-again" movement in the '70s (and their "secret" connections to so-called "independent" tilt-up/happy-clappy outfits), it looks like this Tower of Babel is about to fall. >>     Oh, bOb.... you're such a breath of fresh cow poop!! ;-)   bwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha   Bruce . . . Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles . . . Duncan, Miles, and Molly visit CornelyCues & Howling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ... From: <JKVDP@aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 01:04:50 EDT   In a message dated 00-10-21 21:27:56 EDT, mhev.wa@netzero.net writes:   << Yes, I agree 98.132938% -- but how does this help the situation of lack = of Theatre Organists ... >>   I don't recall ever seeing ads for Theatre organists and I read the = Theatre Organ Mag. too. Is there really a shortage of professional theatre = organists? Jerry in Seattle  
(back) Subject: Re: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ... From: "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:18:03 -0700   All of the theatre organists I know are in their 50's ... Hokum, of http://hokumhall.org/ is at least in his late 40's. If I were to start some sort of career in the biz, I would be the infant = ... being in the 30's.   Myself, I may have to move to Portland to allow me to finish my EE degree .... and I will have to learn the career there. [me, SEA]   Sad, to some extent ... as Seattle (Puget Sound) has more organs.   If I manage to migrate to ANZ ... the only compatition I have will be = Neils Jensen (he seems to be the only one!) NZ has no theatre organ scene -- even 'The Bush Cenderilla' was not able = to bring it back. (Turn of the century Auckland)         ----- Original Message ----- From: <JKVDP@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: 21 October, 2000 22:04 Subject: Re: Organist Shortage - considerations -- theatre ...     > In a message dated 00-10-21 21:27:56 EDT, mhev.wa@netzero.net writes: > > << Yes, I agree 98.132938% -- but how does this help the situation of = lack of > Theatre Organists ... > > >> > > I don't recall ever seeing ads for Theatre organists and I read the Theatre > Organ Mag. too. Is there really a shortage of professional theatre organists?                             _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html  
(back) Subject: No mate ... It's Roo Hornes! From: "mhev.wa" <mhev.wa@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 23:56:03 -0700   Well tie me roos down mate ... you need these kind of hornes on an organ:   12' Wallaby Horn 21' Big Red Horn 33' Shark Flute 2' Prawn Flute 17' Crock Tibia   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=   Reply =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=   My word, my buird! Ye needs a fishes 'ornes to make an organ...   8' Cod 'orne 9' Salmon 'orne 11' Eel 'orne   Without thems thar above, there be no way to 'ave a decent organ in Newfoundland!   No way I would take my buird to an organ concert, if the organ didn't at least have a Cod 'orne!       Mr Codd,   Dildo, Newfoundland er ... Canada =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=     > > How absolutely fascinating! Organ artillery :-} ! Unified, it would = be > > 1' Pistol > > 2' Rifle > > 4' Shotgun > > 8' Howitzer > > 16' Cannon > > > > How about a toilet celesta. We could name it the "IV Flusher."             _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html