PipeChat Digest #1595 - Monday, September 4, 2000
 
dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: pump for the wind is fleeting (motto of the Former Pipe  Organ Pumper
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
OHS 2000 Convention Highlights
  by "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu>
Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Re: pump for the wind is fleeting (motto of the Former Pipe Organ  Pumper
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day
  by <support@opensystemsorgans.com>
Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
 


(back) Subject: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:16:53   At 02:04 PM 9/4/2000 EDT, you wrote: >As for=20 >*authentic* performance 14 or fifteen keys per octave to be able to play= in >meantone is a bit *mean* itself.<snip>   It is SILLINESS...pure and simple. If anyone wants to see or play one of these antiquities, they can call their travel agent and head for Europe.   >I guess my *other* question has to do with >hand pumping, why is that superior to blower blown? It's also interestin= g that >the word *flexable* stands in for unsteady wind.<snip>   Again, it isn't.   >Another question, why >is having to play using 2 1/2 assistants *superior* to a good relyable >100 memory combo action?<snip>   It also isn't. It is aptly described by my coined term, "retro-faddishne= ss".   >Foppish silliness comes to mind.<snip>   Zactomundo. There's a cadre of "trendy Wendies" in the organ world drivi= ng all this nonsense, based purely on "fad" value rather than any consistant progression of valid musical thought. It's basically being "old" for the sake of being DIFFERENT...not necessarily any "better". When one starts = to investigate how this "trend" came into being, one only needs to remember basic human nature, which tends to take such matters as this (and politic= s, for example) to extremes, rather than settle into a comfortable mid-groun= d, which has the ability to borrow ably from one side or the other. With th= is in mind, one goes back a century to the "orchestral" excesses built from 1900 to the early 1930s.   These organs, heavily influenced by Hope-Jones and others, explored many new tonal areas, certainly not many of them very good for the literature = of the organ. The philosophies included making the organ a "stand-in" for a symphony orchestra, both in the concert hall and in the motion picture theater, and concluded that such organ-peculiar stops as mixture and mutations were no longer needed, due to the high harmonic content of heavily winded, narrow scale strings and brilliant, heavily winded reeds. Although one could conclude that at least some of this was indeed valid f= or the performance of popular music with its "melody and accompaniment" form= , it quickly showed that it was totally unsuitable for the performance of counterpoint. It also became painfully evident that such voicing philosophies were not suitable for the accompaniment of congregational singing, for the most part. In retrospect, we must consider all of what happened here to be indeed a "fad", with only one surviving complete medium, the theater organ. One cannot discount, however, the importance = of many non-tonal inventions and innovations made by Skinner, Hope-Jones and others during this period, however.   In the 1930s, work by Harrison and Holtkamp showed boldly that the previo= us thirty yeas or so had taken work by Cavaill=E9-C=F6ll, most notably, to illogical extremes. Although the orchestral voicing inventions of C-C in France (and some others, such as Rieger and Walcker in Germany, but to a much lesser degree), did indeed have validity for new forms of music then being composed, it was these elements that were grabbed at the expense of cohesive flue ensembles and crowning upperwork. One can verify this simp= ly by a playing a Bach piece on a Cavaill=E9-C=F6ll, and then performing the= same piece on, say, an original 1920 Kimball, Skinner or something similar. O= ne quickly notes that details of counterpoint are lost to the listener's min= d, and one has to actively try to seek out the various parts through a soupy mash of unison and coupled tone. Skinner, although a frequent and vocal critic of Hope-Jones, was still unduly influenced by his tonal thoughts, and gladly adopted his non-tonal ideas, such as sprung regulators and settable combination action.   What Harrison (and Holtkamp, actually, but in a more radical form) were trying to impress upon the music world was that the organ indeed had to b= e able to perform works from various different musical schools, all the whi= le being able to perform its usual primary function of accompanying congregational singing. While this entails compromise in areas, especial= ly as the organ grows smaller, it did reopen the world to instruments that once again could thrill audiences to the world of Bach and his approximat= e contemporaries, a world that had mostly been given up as lost back in the previous thirty years or more. If one reads Harrison's and Holtkamp's thoughts on the subject of tonality, one finds that both were acutely awa= re that the organ as an instrument had gone "off the deep end" into a pool o= f a fleeting but self-destructive "fad". Certainly, one must concede that "authenticity" suffers in such a school of thought, the organ being an overall compromise rather than any sort of faithful "reproduction". But both these men, as well as their adherents, knew some basic principles of acoustic perception that were lost on the furtherers of completely orchestral organs, mainly that upperwork allows clearing hearing of counterpoint, owing to the non-linearity of the human ear, and that a certain amount of articulation of tone is necessary to help fix the perception of pitch into the mind.   Fast forward to 1951. As soon as Ampex 300 tape decks became portable (a= nd had accurate enough frequency converters and voltage regulators), E. Powe= r Biggs set off to Europe for Columbia to record the great Baroque organs still extant there. Biggs, as many scholars felt at the time, was of the thought that the great legacy of organ building in Europe had largely bee= n forgotten by the musical public, and felt that, as a performing artist wi= th a solid contract with Columbia, could do something to rectify this. Columbia gladly agreed, as it would be a technological achievement, as we= ll as a musical one, that would further burnish their reputation as America'= s premiere classical music label. The releases that came back were mostly = a revelation to many, who had never heard these instruments before. These high fidelity recordings, starting with "The Art Of The Organ" in 1951, opened up new aural vistas to hundreds of thousands, and charmed them wit= h the antique sounds of extremely light wind, cohestive ensembles and exciting brilliance that these organs had demonstrated for 500 years, som= e of them.   Biggs continued to tour and record in Europe throughout the '50s, until h= e was able to get the notorious Flentrop installed at Harvard. From then o= n, it was a veritable "hit parade" of albums of "Bach Organ Favorites" and other material eminating from this Flentrop, almost all of it Baroque in origin, and most all of it putting the "neo-classical" design of this org= an to good use. Why would Biggs take such a path, forsaking his previous reputation as a fine Romantic player and a booster of Harrison's work? Why, it was simply "show bizz"! It HAD to distance himself form the orchestral/transcription giant, Virgil Fox! These's a story in this abou= t Fox at Columbia around this time, too, but...another time!   About the time Biggs was camping out in the organ loft at Busch-Reisinger= , a fellow named Fesperman wrote a book, "The Organ As A Musical Medium", i= n which the author fairly trashes the orchestral and even the Reform Moveme= nt organs as being "unauthentic". He campaigns mightily for a return of the organ to its state in the early 1700s, devoid of electricity or convenience, making the mistaken assumption that it should be thus, since the bulk of organ repertoire was indeed written in the era, and it should be performed as authenically as possible at all times. Pages and plates were filled with extolations of the work of Andover's Fisk and Rieger's Glatter-G=F6tz, most of it devoid of any orchestral character whatever, a= nd usually also minus any of the modern conveniences devised over the past 1= 00 years or so. That's where the current trouble began.   Builders like Fisk, then at Andover, and Glatter-G=F6tz, then at Rieger i= n Germany, took these events as marching orders, and proceeded to make Festerman's and Biggs' thoughts on the organ into reality. It was the oh-so-"IN" thing to do! Gone was the art of compromise and flexibility o= f Harrison and Holtkamp (although I must admit Holtkamp was quite fond of literally burning the ears off his instruments' audiences with overdone upperwork); in was the xylophonic flutes, screeching upper work and "accordion" wind of days gone by. Later, others started tweaking around with temperament, basically based upon the same idea that "old is new" again, throwing out 200 years of mathematical and musicological study on the subject.   While all of this only basically accomplishes exactly what Biggs had already accomplished in his 1950s recordings for Columbia, it has one, lingering, VERY negative side effect: These expensive "replicas" are unsuitable for performing ANYTHING after about 1750! Not only are we thrown into a trap of having instruments that can do Bach, Buxtehude and Pachebel authentically and no one after this time, but we have closed the door on any further development of literature for the instrument! Fesperman seemed to think that, since we had the greatness of Bach, why fool around with anything else? Rubbish. Counterpoint has HAD its time...there will NEVER be another "Baroque Era", only occassional reviva= ls here and there. Thus, now we have people like Fisk and Glatter-G=F6tz (a= nd others) filling the same, EXACT shoes of Hope-Jones one hundred years before, lauching into fanciful "retro-fads", and not keeping an eye or ea= r on "the big picture". The Hope-Jones crowd went too far forward; these guys have gone too far backward, this time reinventing "old" as "new". T= he pendulum swings both ways, of course, and it is but a matter of time befo= re this work is also discredited. But how much damage to the organ "as a musical medium" will be done in the meantime?   I believe prolific (if not universally loved) American organ composer Leo Sowerby was once asked what he thought of these "retro-fad" organs that started popping up before his passing. I believe his response was single-worded..."junk".   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: pump for the wind is fleeting (motto of the Former Pipe Organ Pumpers' Guild) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:20:48   At 11:42 AM 9/4/2000 -0700, you wrote: >yet the organ seems to SING when it's hand-pumped.<snip>   Yeah...right. So does an accordion. Heard one of those, lately?   dB  
(back) Subject: Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:27:38   At 02:57 PM 9/4/2000 EDT, you wrote: >It WOULD happen. Unless, of course, you=20 >don't REALLY play the organ!!!!<snip>   Ya know, yer gonna push a little too far...   ....and THEN, I'll work up a recital on such a Frisky=AE, containing NOTHI= NG but Romantic and Modern pieces that'll SHOW these things for what they are...ANACHRONISMS...INCAPABLE of playing the broad landscape of musical heritage!   I'd like nothing better than to leave Wellesly's chapel full of people strewn on the floor, desparately trying to hide from this thing's harshne= ss as it tries unsuccessfully to be a useful musical medium!   dB  
(back) Subject: Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:30:01   At 03:16 PM 9/4/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Had she played it, we would have had >the unique fun of hearing the same piece in THREE different temperaments = on >THREE different and unique organs. NOW THAT'S FUN!<snip>   No, that's organ people being organ people. The general musical public could not care LESS.   dB  
(back) Subject: OHS 2000 Convention Highlights From: "Will Scarboro" <whs1325@garnet.acns.fsu.edu> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:49:05 -0400     Dear List members..........         Yes, it's time for the highly anticipated, carbon charged, fully = fortified 2000 Organ Historical Society Convention Highlights!!   With your host, the wonderful, fabulous, and additive free, Will Scarboro!!!!   (Applause)   whoops.......I guess I was day-dreaming there for a second.   Seriously, as promised a few weeks ago here are some personal highlights =   of the OHS convention in Boston. These highlights are not intended to over-shadow Malcolm's fine reviews but rather are intended to give a different prospective on some selected events. Plus, since there were different options at this years convention, they will give an account of some events which Malcolm didn't attend and that I did.   The first thing that really sticks out in my mind are the organs that we heard that had been silent for many years. Many of them had emergency repairs made on them literally just days before the convention. Some of them had been added to the convention schedule at the last moment. Its moments like these that really make OHS conventions great. Hearing an = organ that has been silent for as long as forty years play again. Seeing the faces of aging parishioners who can remember when the organ was used. Seeing their churches completely full maybe for the first time in many years. Hearing the hymn singing, something that may have not been heard in =   a long time. It is very emotional both for them and for many of us also. It leaves a lasting impression on them that their organ is important and that it should be appreciated.   Sunday was a particularly good day. After the annual meeting there was a big block of time set aside for us to attend the church of our choice. I went to Old South Church to hear the Skinner organ formerly of the St. = Paul Municipal Auditorium. The organ sounded great. The Prelude was the Prelude =   and Fugue in g minor by Bach, the postlude was the Fugue in g minor by Dupre. The hymns were a bit strange but were singable with the help of the =   organ. The organ also contains one of the most musical and useful Chamade Trumpets that I've ever heard. Definitely not your usual big, honking = party horn here.   In the afternoon, I attended the open console session at Trinity Church, Copley Square. The organ is a Skinner/Aeolian-Skinner divided into Nave = and Gallery sections. The Skinner gallery organ was only partially playing due =   to some water damage from a small smoldering fire that occurred just above =   the right side of the organ. So the Solo and part of the choir was out. In =   addition the Skinner Great was off-line while its chests were being re-leathered. So only the Nave organ, Gallery Swell, part of the Gallery Choir, Gallery Pedal, and Gallery Trompette en Chamade were playing. = Brian Jones played a few pieces for us and then turned over the console to whoever wished to try it. I jumped at the chance and before I even knew it =   I was sitting at the most compact console I'd ever seen. Because of the complexity of the divided organ and the off-line divisions, I let Brian Jones register for me while I played a short improvisation on the hymn "Morning has Broken". It was quite thrilling and definitely FUN!!   Tuesday nights concert was also memorable for me. We heard the magnum = opus of the Hook firm, the 1875 organ at Holy Cross Cathedral. The building itself is absolutely enormous and the reverb is pretty good despite the miles of red carpet in the chancel area. The organ sounded ok but its = aging windchest sounded like they were screaming for help. There were many interesting murmurs from small pipes that helped to color the music in = ways I thought were not possible. In the final improvisation they even sounded intentional. A funny thing happened during the Copland piece. There were cannon shots that were authentically reproduced by a bass drum. The first =   of these BOOMs literally scared the whole audience. I myself thought a reservoir has blown at first. We were ready when the next ones came.   Wednesday nights final concert at the former Immaculate Conception Church =   is beyond description. Of course I knew that Tom Murray would play an excellent program. But I was not prepared for what I heard. Tom seemed to become the music and to reused a quote made originally about Edwin Lemare, =   "He made the organ dance". It was a triumphal climax to a wonderful week and another wonderful OHS convention.   I don't really know if this would be considered a highlight so I've invented a new category. I'm proud to present the Funniest Moment of the OHS convention. When your dealing with as many people as the OHS convention has, plus eight tour buses in an already congested city, the results can, at times, be interesting. Monday evening we were scheduled to =   be bused to the Charlestown navy yard for dinner by the USS Constitution. = I had the misfortune to pick a bus with a driver who seems to think that all =   the directional signs to the Constitution were wrong. It started off quietly, we made a wrong turn into a scenic industrial area of Boston past =   the power plant and old candy factory. Whoops. Turn around. Back past = the power plant and former candy factory. Up on the highway we past a sign = that clearly indicated that the Constitution was the next right. We went left! Whoops. Turn around. Back on the road we suddenly found ourselves on a bridge to the side of the river OPPOSITE of the Constitution. Whoops. = Turn around? NO! This time our driver stops to ask for directions (he has no radio) right in front of an exit to a parking garage. We sit there for a few moments. Then a lady in a red car attempts to exit the garage. On seeing our bus blocking her way she stops, takes our a cigarette and her cell phone. The driver back on board, we try again. Head for the bridge = we think. Does he? NO! Next we find ourselves turning into a Coast Guard station, still on the other side of the river from the Constitution. After =   this everyone on our bus was laughing like mad. Even more so when in desperation, Tim Bovard took out his legal pad and in bold letters wrote " =   HELP!! DRIVER IS LOST!". He then proceeded to place it on the window advertising to all of Boston that we were lost. The bus was a bunch of laughing fools, and the driver must have surly wondered whether we were drunk. Finally back on the road we head for the bridge and cross it. We're =   on the right track. We're almost there when we drive past a sign that = says turn right. The driver passes the turn and then turns right at the next gate and then realizes that he should have turned at the previous one. = Back we go and finally we make it to the Constitution. Of course by then the rest of the convention is halfway done with their meals. But we shall = never forget this trek through odd parts of Boston on our way to "Old = Ironsides".   Will Scarboro   P.S. I should also briefly mention that I went to Mt. Auburn Cemetery and saw the gravesites of many important people including the Hooks, Oscar Pearson, Longfellow, and Appleton. The weather was really good and I enjoyed the change to walk around outside.      
(back) Subject: Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:02:11 -0400   > It also isn't. It is aptly described by my coined=20 > term, "retro-faddishness".=20   dB, this is _your_ opinion. We all have opinions and you know the = old saying about them as well as I. =20   Not everything new is GOOD? and not everything old is BAD?. Heck, if = we extend your line of reasoning, why don't we just get rid of all = those expensive, cranky, hard to maintain pipes altogether with their = leaky wind chests and replace 'em all with electronics and = speakers? Tuning isn't nearly the same bear and if you want to add = more pipes, just upgrade the processor, add some more speakers and turn = the volume up or down. Much easier than replacing bellows = leathers!! While we're at it, we can just junk the old electronics = every ten years and replace 'em with the latest and greatest.=20   Some people only want to drive cars with automatic transmissions = and onboard GPS map systems. Others enjoy stick shifts and manual = steering. Why the Hell should I buy a ticket to Europe if I want to = enjoy a stick shift? Tastes differ and you nor I nor Bruce nor _= anyone_ else has the last word in tastes. =20 I have know good organists who _enjoy_ the touch of a good tracker = organ with the feel of the power of the instrument and then there = are others who want the touch of a B3 everytime they sit down. On = the other hand, if I have a manual transmission already, why the hell = would I want to rip out the stick and probably ruin a perfectly good car = in the process? =20   Why do we still maintain old steam engines when mag-levs are just = around the corner? Why don't we just melt down all those old clunkers = and reuse the metal for something mod-ren! Because they are FUN!!! = They're not as fast, but there's a thrill there. =20   No instrument can do _all_ music justice. Some music was intended to = be played in a smaller more intimite setting and that's not going to = happen in a cathedrale. Other pieces work only on a great beast of = an organ in a very large setting. =20   I do not consider myself a "retro-fadder". I enjoy a very broad range = of music. While Bach's music sounds good on a modern concert grand = B=F6sendorfer, I also want to hear how Bach sounds on a harpiscord so = that I can get a better feel of what the old master himself heard. I = used to play trumpet. I've also played a cornetto. While I don't = propose to get rid of all the valve trumpets and return to the "good = old fashioned way" to play trumpet music, I do find it enjoyable in = the proper settings. And I'm glad that someone is still producing = those old instruments so that I can enjoy them, too. =20   The point of the OHS (as I understand it, anyway) is to enjoy the _= rich_ heritage that we have here in the good ol' US of A and to = preserve that heritage for generations to come. =20   I've only been on these lists for a few months but I have seen you drag = out the same set of arguments multiple times already. Frankly, dB, = you come across as being just as closed minded as the "retro-fadders" = that you complain about. You mention the human tendency to extremes = but here you go again on your side of the extreme. Neither extreme = is right. From what I'm seeing lately, though, I fear that the next = trend/fad will seek to electrocute the remaining trackers that we have = in the US. =20   Your tirades against Flentrop are threadbare, too. The one at Duke is = a magnificent instrument and is capable of handling a very broad range = of organ literature, as I have pointed out before. The recordings by = Biggs on the Harvard Flentrop are what introduced me to the beauty of = the organ and organ literature back in the early 70's and fired up my = love of the music - not Virgil Fox. And I'm not alone there, either. =20   As to what works or doesn't work on a particular style of instrument, = I heard Widor played to very good effect on the Mueller organ of St. = Bavo's (magnificent!). It was restored to it's original sound by = Marcussen in the 60's and still does excellent justice to music from = later periods. =20   Fads come and fads go. Thus is the nature of the beast. True progress = is the result of what is technically and artistically sound and lasting = and that will stay. The chaff will blow away with the next wind of = fad, probably along with some good kernals in the process. =20   Come off it already and learn to enjoy the various types of instruments = for what they are! Bob, you're a wealth of knowlege and a lot of = your posts are very enjoyable. I've learned a lot from reading them = over the last few months. But this particular line has gotten old. =20   Cheers, TommyLee PS I like reed organs, too, and am very glad that they didn't _all_ = get trashed when the Hammonds and schpinetts came on the scene. = Reed organs will still be pumping long after the last schpinett has = died for lack of replacement tubes - unless some "retro-fadder" down = the line starts producing tubes again.=20    
(back) Subject: Re: pump for the wind is fleeting (motto of the Former Pipe Organ Pumpers' Guild) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 15:01:43 -0700   Why, just yesterday I was thinking of scoring the Griesbacher Propers for um-pah-pah band with accordion descant ... stylistically correct, surely??!!   Cheers,   Bud, who used to PLAY the accordion (now THAT'S a deep, dark secret told for the first time)   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 11:42 AM 9/4/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >yet the organ seems to SING when it's hand-pumped.<snip> > > Yeah...right. So does an accordion. Heard one of those, lately? > > dB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day From: <support@opensystemsorgans.com> Date: 4 Sep 2000 18:03:56 -0700   On Mon, 04 September 2000, Bob Scarborough wrote:   > consistant progression of valid musical thought.   Sounds a bit like Scientific Socialism to me. If you really believe that = the new drives out the old, then why are you so fond of Sowerby's music?   In accounting or contract law, the word "valid" means something. In the = arts, it just flaunts a closed mind.   > When one starts to > investigate how this "trend" came into being, one only needs to remember > basic human nature, which tends to take such matters as this (and = politics, > for example) to extremes, rather than settle into a comfortable = mid-ground   I hope this philosophy doesn't inform your diet. Should all music sound = the same? And if not, then why should all organs sound the same?   Hooray for fads. Remember that cooking meat was once a fad. So were = democracy and fugue writing.   Dick Meckstroth      
(back) Subject: Re: dB goes meshuggah, was Final Great Day From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:02:17 EDT   In a message dated 9/4/00 4:32:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   < It is SILLINESS...pure and simple. If anyone wants to see or play one = of these antiquities, they can call their travel agent and head for Europe.>   Gee thanks! And what about those of us who cannot afford to go to Europe =   (I'm still paying for OHS 1999!). Isn't that quite a distance to practice = a couple of time a week? You're so considerate! ;-) < It's basically being "old" for the sake of being DIFFERENT...not necessarily any "better".>   As opposed to being new and progressive just for the sake of being = DIFFERENT.   Basically the diatribe which followed seemed to say that as long as organ building suits your taste it's OK, and everybody else can take a leap. = No need to try to deal with all of that! ;-)       Bruce Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles visit the Cornely pack at Holwling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Boston OHS 2000, The Final Great Day From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:02:23 EDT   In a message dated 9/4/00 4:40:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << No, that's organ people being organ people. The general musical public could not care LESS. >>   We were NOT the general public! It was a convention of organists and = organ builders and other interested people. By the way, when were you voted spokesman for the general public???   Bruce Cremona502@cs.com in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles visit the Cornely pack at Holwling Acres: Ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502