PipeChat Digest #1334 - Monday, April 3, 2000
 
Nettleton
  by "Charles E. Peery" <cpeery19@idt.net>
Re: New Grand Ophicleide issue is out!
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
small pipe organ for sale
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
small Estey -more
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Nettleton?
  by "Edmund Shay" <EdShay@colacoll.edu>
Ten Commandments
  by "Edmund Shay" <EdShay@colacoll.edu>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Ten Commandments
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by <CareyOrgan@aol.com>
Re: Tubular Pneumatic
  by <Musmachns@aol.com>
Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
pneumatic actions
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: 10 Commandments
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
Re: small pipe organ for sale
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Estey
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 


(back) Subject: Nettleton From: "Charles E. Peery" <cpeery19@idt.net> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 05:26:57 -0400   Here's just what someone was asking for:   Variations on An American Hymn Tune Gordon Young   Seven variations on Nettleton ending in Toccata, flashy as can be but not = as difficult as it sounds.   J. Fischer (Belwin) FE9288   Chuck Peery Cincinnati  
(back) Subject: Re: New Grand Ophicleide issue is out! From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:22:18 -0500   >All: > >If you haven't signed up for membership in the Atlantic City Convention >Hall Organ Society yet, by all means, do so now! I've just received the >latest issue of "The Grand Ophicleide", the official publication of the >society, and I must say it IS spectacular! Coverage is expanded, and >includes a full color photo section that is superb.   By all means JOIN! I did so last year and the excitement that is building about this organ behemoth possibly completely playing some day is becoming palpable!   John V      
(back) Subject: small pipe organ for sale From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:59:47 -0500   Dear list   We just located a small Estey pipe organ that needs to find a new home. The organ was taken out of a church 20 years ago when still playing. It = was stored in a home hoping to be re-installed there. That never happened. Yesterday I investigated same and found that although it was stored in an incredibly overstuffed house, it appears to be complete, with most pipes still wrapped up in brown Kraft. The storage was dry and it looks like the makings for a nice little organ.   On the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a perfect candidate for Direct Electric action.   At this point in time, we'd like to move it only once (out of the house) = so if anyone within a 200 mile radius is interested, we'd truck it to them.   Details:   Location: East of Poughkeepsie, NY in Dover Plains near the CT border.   Stop tab list: (L to R)   Trem SAl. 8' St. Diap. 8' Flt. Harm. 4' GT to Ped SW to ped Sw to Gt 8' Sw to Gt 16' Sw to Gt 4' Gt to Gt 4' Sw to Sw 16' SW to Sw 4' Dulciana 8' Melodia 8' Op Diap. 8' Bourdon 16'   The rolltop console is a two manual with a single set of stop tabs and "on-off"pushbuttons on the right cheeks It is believed it was installed in the early 1920's The last patent notice on it is 1918. A facade screen is included, and also a swell box in as far as I could determine. We were told the organ was 11 ft high total, although I saw no pipes over 8ft. It does have set of Haskells with it.   Proceeds from this will fund our High School pipe organ project so we are currently asking for $1750 delivered within the 200 mile radius. We will reduce the price accordingly if picked up locally, or if FOB.   Inquiries to the above email address please.   John V      
(back) Subject: small Estey -more From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:16:28 -0500   >Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:58:09 -0400 >From: William Baker <wmbaker@crocker.com> >Subject: small Estey >Sender: Pipe Organs and Related Topics <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu> >To: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu >Reply-to: William Baker <wmbaker@crocker.com> > >John Vanderlee writes (in part) ><On the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a = perfect >candidate for Direct Electric action.> > >And has ventils chests, etc. -- however: dependingy on the year of >manufacture, it quite likely has _brass_ tubes instead of lead. This = could >tip the balance toward restoration instead of electrocution, IMO. > >I hope it finds a good home. >Wm Baker   Yes, it has BRASS tubing! Therefore I would tend to agree with mr. Baker.   John V      
(back) Subject: Re: Nettleton? From: "Edmund Shay" <EdShay@colacoll.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:22:58 -0400 (EDT)   >Greetings, list members... > >Does anyone know of a cool solo organ showpiece (toccata, fantasia, etc.) >based on the hymn tune NETTLETON? > >Also, I'm looking for "interesting" arrangements/concertato versions of >ENGELBERG and "On Eagle's Wings." Organ accompaniment is preferred, but >piano would be okay, too. > >Thanks very much, >-greg > bloomington, in     Greg,   There is a very "catchy" and rhythmic setting of ENGELBERG by Robert Hobby in his "3 Hymns of Praise," Set 2, published by MorningStar, #10-757.   Ed   ..   > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Ten Commandments From: "Edmund Shay" <EdShay@colacoll.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT)   Please, fellow listers, forgive the slightly off-topic nature of this = post. However, it does connect to possible organ literature selections for an upcoming service.   Does anyone have an English text version of Luther's hymn setting of the = Ten Commandments, Diese sind den heiligen zen Gebott (sp?)? [Sorry for the spelling errors. I'm at home as I write this, books at church, etc.] = I've looked in the numerous hymnals here at home and at church, including the LBW. Nothing so far. If you have any settings besides hymns, I would appreciate knowing of those also. Any assistance y'all can give is = greatly appreciated!   Thanks in advance, Jerry Ripley Director of Music Ministries First Congregational UCC San Bernardino, California   Jerry, I'm sending this a secong time because I think the original may have been lost.   Here are the verses, all twelve!   These are the holy Ten Commancments which our Lord God gave to us through Moses, his true servant, high on Mount Sinai. Kyrie eleison.   I alone am your God the Lord. You are to have no other gods. You should trust me completely, and love me from the depths of your heart. Kyrie eleison.   You should not take the name of God your Lord in vain. You should praise neither right nor good if they are without that which God himself speaks and does. Kyrie eleison.   You should sanctify the seventh day so that you and your house may rest. You should let up from your work so that God may do his work in you. Kyrie eleison.   You should honor and obey your father and mother, and serve them where you able so that you will have a long life. Kyrie eleison.   You should not kill in a rage, not hate, nor take revenge. Have patience and a gentle spirit, and do good even to your enemy. Kyrie eleison.   You should keep your marriage pure so that even your heart does not love another, and keep you life chaste with discipline and moderation. Kyrie eleison.   You should not steal money or goods, nor take another's sweat and blood by usury. You should open your gentle hand to the poor in your land. Kyrie eleison.   You should not be a false witness, nor lie about you neighbor. You should also save his innocence and cover his shame. Kyrie eleison.   You should not covet your neighbor's wife, nor house, nor anything in it. You should wish him everything good, as your heart does for you. Kyrie eleison.   All the commandments are given to us so that you recognize your sin, O human child, and learn well how one should live before God. Kyrie eleison.   The Lord Jesus Christ who has become mediator helps us in this. Our deeds are lost; they have earned only pure wrath. Kyrie eleison.     The source for this translation comes from a very useful book called "The Lutheran Chorales in The Organ Works of J. S. Bach" by Mark S. Bighley, published by Concordia in 1986. It includes the original German as well as translations. The original price was only $20. As far as I know, it is still available.   Good luck!   Ed Shay   ..      
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:34:14 -0700   That's almost the stoplist of my long-lost Estey Model "L" (substitute a = 4' Octave for the Melodia), but I'd be very surprised if tubular pneumatic = action included all those couplers ... but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps somebody has already added electric pull-downs. The original Model L had only Swell to = Great 8-4 and Sw and Gt to Pedal 8.   Cheers,   Bud   John Vanderlee wrote:   > Dear list > > We just located a small Estey pipe organ that needs to find a new home. > The organ was taken out of a church 20 years ago when still playing. It = was > stored in a home hoping to be re-installed there. That never happened. > Yesterday I investigated same and found that although it was stored in = an > incredibly overstuffed house, it appears to be complete, with most pipes > still wrapped up in brown Kraft. The storage was dry and it looks like = the > makings for a nice little organ. > > On the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a = perfect > candidate for Direct Electric action. > > At this point in time, we'd like to move it only once (out of the house) = so > if anyone within a 200 mile radius is interested, we'd truck it to them. > > Details: > > Location: East of Poughkeepsie, NY in Dover Plains near the CT border. > > Stop tab list: (L to R) > > Trem > SAl. 8' > St. Diap. 8' > Flt. Harm. 4' > GT to Ped > SW to ped > Sw to Gt 8' > Sw to Gt 16' > Sw to Gt 4' > Gt to Gt 4' > Sw to Sw 16' > SW to Sw 4' > Dulciana 8' > Melodia 8' > Op Diap. 8' > Bourdon 16' > > The rolltop console is a two manual with a single set of stop tabs and > "on-off"pushbuttons on the right cheeks > It is believed it was installed in the early 1920's The last patent = notice > on it is 1918. A facade screen is included, and also a swell box in as > far as I could determine. > We were told the organ was 11 ft high total, although I saw no pipes = over > 8ft. It does have set of Haskells with it. > > Proceeds from this will fund our High School pipe organ project so we = are > currently asking for $1750 delivered within the 200 mile radius. > We will reduce the price accordingly if picked up locally, or if FOB. > > Inquiries to the above email address please. > > John V > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Ten Commandments From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:38:19 -0700   You can also find the four-part chorale in the Riemenschneider edition of = the Clavieruebung (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   Edmund Shay wrote:   > Please, fellow listers, forgive the slightly off-topic nature of this = post. > However, it does connect to possible organ literature selections for an > upcoming service. > > Does anyone have an English text version of Luther's hymn setting of the = Ten > Commandments, Diese sind den heiligen zen Gebott (sp?)? [Sorry for the > spelling errors. I'm at home as I write this, books at church, etc.] = I've > looked in the numerous hymnals here at home and at church, including the > LBW. Nothing so far. If you have any settings besides hymns, I would > appreciate knowing of those also. Any assistance y'all can give is = greatly > appreciated! > > Thanks in advance, > Jerry Ripley > Director of Music Ministries > First Congregational UCC > San Bernardino, California > > Jerry, I'm sending this a secong time because I think the original may > have been lost. > > Here are the verses, all twelve! > > These are the holy Ten Commancments which our Lord God gave to us = through > Moses, his true servant, high on Mount Sinai. Kyrie eleison. > > I alone am your God the Lord. You are to have no other gods. You should > trust me completely, and love me from the depths of your heart. Kyrie > eleison. > > You should not take the name of God your Lord in vain. You should praise > neither right nor good if they are without that which God himself speaks > and does. Kyrie eleison. > > You should sanctify the seventh day so that you and your house may rest. > You should let up from your work so that God may do his work in you. = Kyrie > eleison. > > You should honor and obey your father and mother, and serve them where = you > able so that you will have a long life. Kyrie eleison. > > You should not kill in a rage, not hate, nor take revenge. Have patience > and a gentle spirit, and do good even to your enemy. Kyrie eleison. > > You should keep your marriage pure so that even your heart does not love > another, and keep you life chaste with discipline and moderation. Kyrie > eleison. > > You should not steal money or goods, nor take another's sweat and blood = by > usury. You should open your gentle hand to the poor in your land. Kyrie > eleison. > > You should not be a false witness, nor lie about you neighbor. You = should > also save his innocence and cover his shame. Kyrie eleison. > > You should not covet your neighbor's wife, nor house, nor anything in = it. > You should wish him everything good, as your heart does for you. Kyrie > eleison. > > All the commandments are given to us so that you recognize your sin, O > human child, and learn well how one should live before God. Kyrie = eleison. > > The Lord Jesus Christ who has become mediator helps us in this. Our = deeds > are lost; they have earned only pure wrath. Kyrie eleison. > > The source for this translation comes from a very useful book called = "The > Lutheran Chorales in The Organ Works of J. S. Bach" by Mark S. Bighley, > published by Concordia in 1986. It includes the original German as well = as > translations. The original price was only $20. As far as I know, it is > still available. > > Good luck! > > Ed Shay > > . > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:43:08 EDT   In a message dated 4/3/00 9:03:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes:   << n the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a = perfect candidate for Direct Electric action. >> Yikes! Why not restore the tubular pneumatic. It should be a very = reliable system unless the internal chest mechanism is wierd.   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS  
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:52:00 -0500   >In a message dated 4/3/00 9:03:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes: > ><< n the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a = perfect > candidate for Direct Electric action. >> >Yikes! Why not restore the tubular pneumatic. It should be a very = reliable >system unless the internal chest mechanism is wierd.   Some of these typical responses are interesting. I was given the = impression that tubular pneumatics had inherent faults like slow action? OK I'm ready to learn more... Anyone care to elaborate?   Thanks!   John V      
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: <CareyOrgan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:41:36 EDT   I would like to know if "Bruce in the Beagle's Nest" has ever restored/rebuilt a tubular pneumatic organ? I would also like to know if = he understands the vagaries of Estey chestwork? I would approach a project = like this with the utmost of caution. Just ask us because we tend a few of = these so-called rebuilds after having been abandoned by the well-intentioned rebuilders. And they are not quite reliable. Save yourselves a big = headache and walk the other way! PCarey  
(back) Subject: Re: Tubular Pneumatic From: <Musmachns@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:17:30 EDT   I've restored a 1917 12 rank Tubular Pneumatic Estey. Despite popular opinions, the actions is light to the touch, and VERY quick. It has the brass tubing, and is a neat thing to look at. Andy Struble  
(back) Subject: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:20:55 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: John Vanderlee <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 11:52 AM Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale   > Some of these typical responses are interesting. I was given the impression > that tubular pneumatics had inherent faults like slow action? > OK I'm ready to learn more... Anyone care to elaborate?   John, I've never been real pleased with tubular pneumatic action, but perhaps that's because most of my experience was on a 1909 Moeller. The action was extremely sluggish, and one would often get an "overlap" of notes....it was -really- hard to play Bach on it. HOWEVER, perhaps the organ was not = in the best shape. At the time that I was crawling in it I was only about 14, so I wouldn't have recognized any problems anyways....   -Rebekah      
(back) Subject: pneumatic actions From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:49:39 -0700   Tubular pneumatic action CAN be very quick and responsive ... the Estey = "L" I referred to was ... BUT, it seems that SOME tubular pneumatic instruments = I've played had a problem with the coupler mechanism (cyphers) ... I don't know = enough about that end of it to comment, and/or know if there's a simple remedy. = The other problem is that with organs that used lead tubes, the tubes "sugar" and/or collapse over time. If this one has brass tubes, that wouldn't be a = problem.   There's a renewed interest in pneumatic actions, at least to the point of restoring them in vintage organs. Mander restored a FOUR-MANUAL t/p in = England. The exception, I gather, is Moller's brief flirtation with pneumatics = using bar and membrane action ... not worth the effort, and hard to keep in proper adjustment.   In any case, with that exception, it's almost always better to restore an = organ's original action than to revert to electrocuting it and/or otherwise = modifying it.   Cheers,   Bud   John Vanderlee wrote:   > >In a message dated 4/3/00 9:03:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes: > > > ><< n the down side is that it is tubular pneumatic, but therefore a = perfect > > candidate for Direct Electric action. >> > >Yikes! Why not restore the tubular pneumatic. It should be a very = reliable > >system unless the internal chest mechanism is wierd. > > Some of these typical responses are interesting. I was given the = impression > that tubular pneumatics had inherent faults like slow action? > OK I'm ready to learn more... Anyone care to elaborate? > > Thanks! > > John V > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:41:23   At 11:43 AM 4/3/2000 EDT, BrewSe the Bawld-one Man wrote: >Yikes! Why not restore the tubular pneumatic. It should be a very reliable >system unless the internal chest mechanism is wierd.   That's cuz most people like to PLAY their music and HEAR it all in the = same day! <snicker>   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:44:25   At 10:52 AM 4/3/2000 -0500, James Vanderlee wrote:   >Some of these typical responses are interesting. I was given the = impression >that tubular pneumatics had inherent faults like slow action?<snip>   TP action came in various different types, and varied from builder to builder. I never did play an Estey with TP, but my experience with others would tend to prove the word "slow" to be an understatement. "Glacial" is probably more like it!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: 10 Commandments From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:00:08 -0500   They are in TLH (The Lutheran Hymnal, Concordia, 1941) on page 287. If you want to hear them online and get the lyrics, go to http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com   Paul  
(back) Subject: Re: small pipe organ for sale From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:14:02 EDT   The people at Estey were experts with TP action as the zillions of reed organs that they built were of a similar design. Converting it to EP = action would be a better and more simple idea than DE. I do feel that a few distinguished tubular organs should be retained in original condition as historic examples but organs that get regular use and must be reliable = will probably benifit from conversion. From my experience with them TP organs require regular adjustment and there aren't many people that know how to = do this correctly. It is an interesting coincidence that this topic came up = when it did as we are about to do a restoration on a 1895 Haskell organ. It is partly TP - a few ranks have a tubular action that uses the slider chest = as a primary. We are restoring this organ to original condition. Two of the original ranks were changed to high pitched ranks in an effort to brighten = it up. I am pretty sure that they were originally a Dulciana and a = Salicional, the names are probably written on the racks under a half inch of dust. If anyone knows the history of Haskell and Estey please let us know. This = organ looks just like an Estey with it's 'Hammond style' stop keyboard. It has a =   real oboe, however - no reedless reeds.   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Estey From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:37:30 -0700       TRACKELECT@cs.com wrote:   > The people at Estey were experts with TP action as the zillions of reed > organs that they built were of a similar design.   Hmmm ... THAT needs some explaining ... as far as I know, all but the = E-PROM model (which was electro-pneumatic action to reed chests) were direct plunger/tracker action with the reed cells directly under the keyboards, = which is why you used to bang your knees on the two-manual and pedal models. I'm = not aware of Estey applying tubular pneumatic action to ANY of their reed organs, = and their tracker action was, well, tracker action. I think MAYBE one of their = late-model two-manual and pedal reed organs put the reed chests up at brustwerk level = and connected them by a normal tracker action, but I may be thinking of a = Vocalion.   > Converting it to EP action > would be a better and more simple idea than DE. I do feel that a few > distinguished tubular organs should be retained in original condition as > historic examples but organs that get regular use and must be reliable = will > probably benifit from conversion. From my experience with them TP organs > require regular adjustment and there aren't many people that know how to = do > this correctly. It is an interesting coincidence that this topic came up = when > it did as we are about to do a restoration on a 1895 Haskell organ. It = is > partly TP - a few ranks have a tubular action that uses the slider chest = as a > primary. We are restoring this organ to original condition. Two of the > original ranks were changed to high pitched ranks in an effort to = brighten it > up. I am pretty sure that they were originally a Dulciana and a = Salicional, > the names are probably written on the racks under a half inch of dust. = If > anyone knows the history of Haskell and Estey please let us know. This = organ > looks just like an Estey with it's 'Hammond style' stop keyboard. It has = a > real oboe, however - no reedless reeds. > > Alan B   The small stock models did indeed have a Hammond-style "chime keyboard" = above the manuals, only with an equal number of naturals and sharps. Pressing the = natural engaged the stop; pressing the sharp released it.   Organ Historical Society and Organ Literature Foundation have reprinted a = good deal of Estey's early materials ... as I recall, the story goes that = someone visited the derelict factory and found a gold-mine of papers thrown on the = floor in the corner. Somebody DID buy some of the reed and chest-making = machinery, I think ... one of the reed organ concerns in New England?   They were still making the harmonium case style "Moderne" one-manual reed = organ and the folding two-rank missionary organ as late as the '50s, and the = occasional E-PROM, which lost out to the early Allens, one would suppose. I bought = one of the last missionary organs new from the factory. I don't think the pipe = organ manufactury survived the Depression ... I don't ever recall seeing a = post-WWII Estey ... maybe somebody else does. I'm sure it's all in Ochse's book.   Cheers,   Bud