PipeChat Digest #1356 - Saturday, April 22, 2000
 
Re: Hymn Search
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Almanac
  by "R A Campbell" <rcampbel@U.Arizona.EDU>
Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5
  by "Ron Reseigh" <RonRizzy@prodigy.net>
Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Ellsasser stuff
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: After 1950 is scum :-)
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Liberation
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Liberation (II)
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Liberation
  by "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com>
secular organs (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: 3-4-5 rank unit organs
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Liberation
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: secular organs (X-posted)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Liberation
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Liberation
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: secular organs (X-posted)
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: secular organs (X-posted)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ?????
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Purists (was Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5)
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ?????
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ?????
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ?????
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Search From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:22:58 EDT   In a message dated 04/18/2000 8:50:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_maitre@hotmail.com writes:   << I am in the middle of doing the programs for Holy Week and have decided = to use the Hymn, "Come Christians, Join to Sing" TUNE - Spanish Chant 66 66 = D. However - my copy has only 3 verses, (Come Christians.../ Come lift your hearts... / Praise yet the Lord again...) Does anyone have additional verses to this hymn ??? >>     I checked 3 editions of the Methodist hymnal, the Presbyterian, the Episcopal, and several misc. old ones..... seems there are no more verses.   Vicki Ceruti  
(back) Subject: Almanac From: "R A Campbell" <rcampbel@U.Arizona.EDU> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:03:33 -0700 (MST)   Listers may be interested in this new Classical Music Almanac. Posting historical events in classical music. ALMANACm-subscribe@egroups.com   ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^= *^*^ R. A. Campbell, KUAT Communications-Modern Languages Building P.O.Box = 210067 University of Arizona, Tucson AZ 85721 on the www: http://kuat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5 From: "Ron Reseigh" <RonRizzy@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:20:11 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 12:07 AM Subject: Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5 I'm a purist....   and I purely love playing rags, waltzes and orchestral and piano transcriptions (Debussy, Beethoven, Clementi, etc.) on my recitals. Waltzes and dances, I think, come off especially well.> Administration:       Okay - so if I came and did a concert on your organ at your parish, I = would not be repremanded for playing Scott Joplin, Joseph Lamb, Cole Porter, Ellington, etc.?   R~    
(back) Subject: Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5 From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:32:16 EDT   In a message dated 4/21/00 11:25:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonRizzy@prodigy.net writes:   << Okay - so if I came and did a concert on your organ at your parish, I = would not be repremanded for playing Scott Joplin, Joseph Lamb, Cole Porter, Ellington, etc.? >>   Are you referring to me personally or is this a general question to the = list?   Scott F  
(back) Subject: Re: Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5 From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 08:35:08   At 11:20 AM 4/21/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Okay - so if I came and did a concert on your organ at your parish, I = would >not be repremanded for playing Scott Joplin, Joseph Lamb, Cole Porter, >Ellington, etc.?<snip>   All the more to further my feeling that we must liberate the organ from = the prison of churches it is now captive to. The instrument is capable of so much, yet delivers so little in such a repressive, politically-charged atmosphere.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Ellsasser stuff From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:40:29   ....from DeserTBawB's "Obscure (and probably should stay that way) Dep't":   Recently, I was "honored" with the bequeathal of several sealed/mint MGM LPs of Richard Ellsasser doing his various things. He really put out a = LOT of albums! Original compositions...transcriptions...oddball stuff. Natcherly, being curious, I uncorked them and found most were pretty...uh..."vinegary".   MGM was never able to succeed in the high fidelity realm of the LP, and these were no exception...poorly recorded with obvious old Westrex equipment, even more poorly pressed...they were generally pretty nasty. Most of these date from the early '50s. As for Ellsasser's original material...wellll....   My question is: Did he ever publish any of this stuff? I don't recall ever seeing any of this in print.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: After 1950 is scum :-) From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 11:57:54 PDT     >Perhaps after 1950 is more likely to be scum.... ;-)   At a recent concert Mr. Gledhill played a medley of Beatles pieces... Very effective! One of my first concerts on the small theater organ I described will include something by Tom Petty.   DG     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:14:20 PDT     >All the more to further my feeling that we must liberate the organ >from >the prison of churches it is now captive to.   AMEN! :-) For 1200 years the organ has been held hostage by the christian religion and is long overdue to be liberated. I did a quick search of organ builders the other day and found that almost all of their new instruments were going into churches, with a smattering for university concert halls.   I think theater organs were a good start but that style didn't get very far because it wasn't given wide enough play outside of the movie places, in the general context of public live music.   Anyone a fan of the Chinese stringed instrument, the Erhu? Very nice sound, it's a bowed viol type instrument with "oooo" vowel overtones. Perfect for smaller instruments without enough room for both vox and VDO.   Like NASA says: Smaller, better, cheaper... this is the motto for designing new pipe organs for public venues. Think about all the places where the public goes to hear live music, e.g. malls, coffee shops, beer halls, pizza places, anywhere the public goes for mellow, non-hyperactive entertainment, etc.   A small, Let's say $4000 organ of the kind I mentioned in my post, is exactly what is needed in these contexts, playing MODERN POPULAR music. = We have the technoloyg to do this but need to get away from this weird idea that however it was that Silbermann built them X hundreds of years ago is the best we can do.   This idea of having organs in town halls seems to be a feature of many English-speaking countries. Not the USA unfortunately.   DG     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation (II) From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:17:41 PDT     In reply to my own post that young folk don't like anything but Rap, techno, and other organ-unplayable stuff: Note that swing music is nowadays more or less acceptable and eminantly playable to very good = effect on the organ.   DG ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation From: "ray ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:27:46 PDT     >>All the more to further my feeling that we must liberate the organ from >>the prison of churches it is now captive to. > >AMEN! :-) For 1200 years the organ has been held hostage by >the christian religion and is long overdue to be liberated.     The "Christian Religion" _has_ realized its mistake and is replacing (liberating) organs with guitars, percussion, and digital tape. Y'all complain about that too!   Really now, decide which side of the fence you're on and stay there! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: secular organs (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:19:41 -0700   Secular organs can be fun ... all you need is an indestructible Austin (Balboa Park, San Diego) or an en-chamade Wurlitzer (that cemetery somewhere around LA), and a more-or-less waterproof house to put it in. Plans are afoot to do the same thing with the big Austin in San Francisco.   The Balboa Park concert series draws something on the order of 3,000 people per concert. Haven't seen that many people at a CHURCH recital in awhile (last recorded instance: 10,000 people showing up to hear FRESCOBALDI play in St. Peter's in Rome ... well, they didn't have TV).   Why not have a go at re-creating the mighty stadium Barton somewhere? Folks are certainly spending the big bucks on new stadia ... they deserve something better than a Yamaha (!). Of course, that DOES take us back to the hydraulus and bread and circuses, but what the heck? The differences between gladiators and professional football players are minimal at best (the gladiators wore less protective gear; the football players get paid more), but the difference between the Barton and (here fill in your fav brand of "toaster") is .... well, it just IS. High-pressure unit theatre organs don't take up THAT much space, even times four (the Barton was quadrupled ... there were four chambers with duplicate ranks ... not unlike the Silica Basilia, which seems to have at least two of everything).   The church organ isn't in danger ... there will always be LCMS and Anglican congregations who won't have anything BUT a pipe organ, and there IS still a certain amount of cachet attached to having the BIGGEST (among the Baptists, and places like the Silica Basilica and the new Mormon Assembly Hall).   We've been through all this before ... the piano replaced the reed organ; the Hammond replaced the piano ... and so forth. Player organs were all the rage at the turn of the century. I don't know of ANY that are still in use in a church today.   What IS probably going the way of all flesh is the 2-3-4 rank unit pipe organ one used to find in small churches ... at today's prices, even I'd have to swallow hard if I had to choose between a five-stop one-manual pipe organ for $75K-$100K and a fully tricked-out 3 or 4 manual Allen Renaissance for around the same price.   Which brings us back around to outdoor secular organs.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: 3-4-5 rank unit organs From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:06:20 PDT     >have to swallow hard if I had to choose between a five-stop >one-manual >pipe organ for $75K-$100K and a fully tricked-out 3 or 4 >manual Allen >Renaissance for around the same price.   That price seems really high to me. If we use mostly off-the-shelf parts and build most of the pipes, bellows, etc. all with "handy men/women =   in the church" power tools and expertise with the organ experts (voicers, etc.) acting as consultants I think the price of a smallish organ could = come down quite a lot.   This is just what I would like to do as a little hobby project with some of the organ society folks.     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:38:51   At 12:27 PM 4/21/2000 PDT, you wrote: >The "Christian Religion" _has_ realized its mistake and is replacing >(liberating) organs with guitars, percussion, and digital tape. Y'all >complain about that too!<snip> >Really now, decide which side of the fence you're on and stay = there!<snip>   Actually, I'm glad the organ is being dismissed from the kind of = "churches" trashing organs for 'pRaZe bAnDz' and other happy-clappy nonsense. This will go far to erase the stigma of those institutions from the instrument. However, no one is installing organs in department stores, shopping malls, civic centers, and the like, where they belong! Someone's got to get things going in that direction. It won't happen until there's public acclaim for it.   For instance, let's review what's happened to the wonderful Austin Opus = 500 in San Francisco. After the Loma Prieta earthquake dealt the organ some considerable damange, it was removed completely and shipped back to Austin for a complete rebuild. A happy occassion, indeed! However, while at the Austin shops, someone in SF made the decision not to reinstall it back = into the auditiorium from whence it came, thinking the structure obsolete and unsound. So, the organ did indeed come back in crates and trays, only to be stored. Now, some morons in city/county government want to erect an "organ pavilion" RIGHT on the Embarcadero...within mere feet of the = water!! On could say it's a poor man's copy of San Diego. Actually, it's worse! The organ will not last in that environment. Organ and music afficianados should be clanging the culturally ignorant Willie Brown into submission on this one!   Opus 500 deserves a fine public venue from which to speak...not some seaside burger stand, where complete disintegration is just a matter of time! Surely there are a number of public edifaces in San Francisco with acoustics and space to properly accommodate Opus 500. For more on this organ, check out Austin's website.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: secular organs (X-posted) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:46:05   At 01:19 PM 4/21/2000 -0700, Bud wrote: >The Balboa Park concert series draws something on the order of 3,000 >people per concert. Haven't seen that many people at a CHURCH recital in >awhile (last recorded instance: 10,000 people showing up to hear >FRESCOBALDI play in St. Peter's in Rome ... well, they didn't have = TV).<snip>   Exactly! San Diego's Austin makes my point for secularizing the organ perfectly. The art of transcription and organ reduction will have to kick into high gear again, just as it was a century ago, at least until some quality composers can be cajoled into writing substantial solo works for the instrument again. Most of what has been written for the "church" = organ in the last 80 years has been, as BrewSe says, "driv-VELL".   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 08:13:37 +0800   Held hostage?? Bunkum! Hey! Don't knock the churches! If it weren't for = the churches there probably would be no organs at all now. In my state there = are only four pipe organs in buildings other than churches, two being Theatre organs which have been rescued and restored. I am very grateful that so = many churches have installed organs! Long may it be so! BTW is anyone wants to come and play Scott Joplin on our church organ - be = our guest! It does a very good imitation of a WurlitZer and we have had = popular concerts using it. At a recent concert I played Radetzky March and another player played Pomp and Circumstance No.1. They went over well. Bob Elms.   "Dave G." wrote:   > >All the more to further my feeling that we must liberate the organ = >from > >the prison of churches it is now captive to. > > AMEN! :-) For 1200 years the organ has been held hostage by > the christian religion and is long overdue to be liberated. I > did a quick search of organ builders the other day and found that > almost all of their new instruments were going into churches, with > a smattering for university concert halls. >    
(back) Subject: Re: Liberation From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:39:42 PDT     >However, no one is installing organs in department stores, shopping = >malls, >civic centers, and the like, where they belong! Someone's got >to get >things going in that direction. It won't happen until there's >public >acclaim for it.   Actually Vicki Webb in L.A. is developing and building new band organs for =   places, but she doesn't have the resources to devote to PR. I plan to do likewise when I graduate and have side money for a hobby business, maybe it will catch on... We'll see. It would really be best if established organ companies (or maybe APOBA -- the trade group) make a project of this to see how much public acclaim can be generated with the proper marketing.   her site: http://www.seventails.com/pooker/pbohome.html   A pipe organ builder whose web page proclaims (in gothic letters) "Fine traditional instruments for the glory of God" isn't gonna get many = contracts with football stadiums or pizza places.   NB: Recording contracts and MEDIA EXPOSURE is also needed.   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: secular organs (X-posted) From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:51:05 PDT   In response to Desert Bob:   >Exactly! San Diego's Austin makes my point for secularizing the >organ >perfectly.   Yes, yes.   >The art of transcription and organ reduction will have to kick >into high gear again, just as it was a century ago, at least until >some >quality composers can be cajoled into writing substantial solo >works for =   >the instrument again.   It is much easier than it was a century ago. There are VAST ARCHIVES of MIDI files on the web, with all the orchestral parts nicely arranged on different tracks, just waiting to be played automatically on an organ with = a little patch reassignment or however it's done. Or loaded into the proper =   scoring software for musician playing!!! With this you don't even have to =   know about transposing B flat trumpets or whatever.   These MIDI archives cover every conceivable kind of music: Classical (prs.net for example) Latin, Rock, Jazz (both modern and classic = 'ragtime'), dance music, movie soundtracks, etc, etc, etc. Stuff people compose and don't bother to get published or even write out at scores (like my compositions), they will happily transcribe/record into MIDI files!   >Most of what has been written for the "church" organ >in the last 80 years has been, as BrewSe says, "driv-VELL".   It is, its the same old hymn tunes (which are in many cases pretty good music!) rehashed into more and more dissonant, unmelodic, and atonal arrangements.   Like I said, if a piece of "modern, daring" organ music is = indistinguishable from a gorilla loose at the console, it's junk that no amount of artspeak can disguise!   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: secular organs (X-posted) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:13:30   At 05:51 PM 4/21/2000 PDT, you wrote: >Like I said, if a piece of "modern, daring" organ music is = indistinguishable >from a gorilla loose at the console, it's junk that no amount of artspeak =   >can disguise!<snip>   Well....   I DO like some modern-era solo organ music...some other is just junk. Atonality, when used properly, can attract the ear and pique the emotions. However, some of the absurdities out there (I won't mention any names...CRASH...<tinkle tinkle>) just don't cut it. It reminds me of the "intelligentia"'s flirtation with twelve-tone in the '30s and '40s...only to find out in 1999 that it was all a system for the Nazis to pass nuke secrets back and forth between Berlin and Los Alamos during the hieght of the Manhattan Project. Since then, I've taken pains to distance myself from musical academia to a great degree.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ????? From: <KriderSM@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:30:40 EDT   Just curious, a theatre organ with NO TREMS??? ....no swell shade pedal = to keep time with??? ....no second touch????? ...no percussion??? = ....no pedal board to keep the left foot busy???   Just curious, why would one want 4 manuals for playing just three ranks, = no matter how unified???   Just curiouser, how many preset combination buttons would be available per =   manual???? ...General combination buttons???   Even the Page Organ Company wouldn't dare that much unification!!!   What can I say? T each his own!   Stan Krider         In a message dated 4/20/00 6:39:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave_hat@hotmail.com writes: << Suppose you had to design a small theater organ, you have 4 manuals but no pedal, all pipes are unenclosed, no tremulant, at most one stop of 8' (although closed pipes of 8' pitch are OK). You get only 3 stops but they can be compound stops (more than one rank per stop is OK), 61 or 73 pipes/rank. >>  
(back) Subject: Purists (was Upcoming Detroit Recital May 5) From: <KriderSM@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:37:57 EDT   AWwww, Bruce!   You cut out my precious Beatles compositions!!! The Melissa Manchester piece, "Come In From The Rain" still holds its own against any of that pre1950s Purist stuff!! Play it as a prelude during a downpour and people =   would not recognize it as a "pops" piece. Hint, hint, hint.   Stan Krider     In a message dated 04/21/2000 5:01:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bruce writes:   >I'm a purist.... and I purely love playing rags, waltzes and orchestral and piano transcriptions (Debussy, Beethoven, Clementi, etc.) on my recitals. Waltzes and dances, I think, come off especially well. Perhaps after 1950 is more likely to be scum.... ;-)<  
(back) Subject: Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ????? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:49:03   At 10:30 PM 4/21/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Even the Page Organ Company wouldn't dare that much unification!!!   Yup...I'd have to agree...Page took Hope-Jones' craziness to the extreme = on THAT subject!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ????? From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:29:48 -0700   I don't know about Page ... somebody tell the story, please.   Cheers,   Bud   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 10:30 PM 4/21/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >Even the Page Organ Company wouldn't dare that much unification!!! > > Yup...I'd have to agree...Page took Hope-Jones' craziness to the extreme = on > THAT subject! > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: A 4 manual/3 rank theatre organ????? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:36:48   At 10:29 PM 4/21/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I don't know about Page ... somebody tell the story, please.<snip>   Not much to tell, really...they didn't sell much at all. For an example (about the only one on the West Coast), check out the Casino Theater in Avalon...played every weekend in the summer, I believe.   Page was big on console, SHORT on ranks.   DeserTBoB