PipeChat Digest #1238 - Wednesday, January 26, 2000
 
DB rants and raves, was "National Shrine - NOT Open"
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: attitudes toward congregations
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: National Shrine - NOT Open
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: attitudes toward congregations
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Recital Announcement
  by <SchultzRH@aol.com>
RC standards
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Fire Destroys St. Annes RC Church, Oswego, Il; (cross posted)
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@ameritech.net>
FL Pipe organ company / inventory for sale
  by "Mr. Jan S. VanDerStad" <dcob@nac.net>
Looking for music  [X - Post]
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
The Church after Vatican II
  by "Charles Wertalik" <wertzl@earthlink.net>
Re: The Church after Vatican II
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 



(back) Subject: DB rants and raves, was "National Shrine - NOT Open" From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 02:14:03   At 01:07 AM 1/25/2000 -0500, you wrote: >But in church music I have encountered egos the size of Alaska, egos = >that dwarf any of the trial lawyers <snip> but I can match every bit of bad >behavior by lawyers with worse behavior by church musicians and = clergy.<snip>   Amen to THAT! Throw into that mix the organ repair bizz, both pipe and electrons. Talk about some thieves! Whole ranks get substituted with inferior pipework, or disappear completely without a trace...speakers and amps get "changed out" for no reason...there's as many stories out there = as you've got time to hear! I've been servicing/tuning for 30 years, and = have never wanted to go to it fulltime because of the plethora of flakes and wierdos around. One cannot hardly be honest and strive be tops in their craft without fending off a barrage on unprincipled, unscrupulous competition. I've heard this very lament more often than not from people in the business who are hard-working craftspeople of high quality. Some of the ne'er-do-wells hide behind the visage of being "of the cloth", and use this as a tax dodge for their "business".   >I remember when a music director I was singing for >was dying of AIDS and the calls about his job started coming into the >church office while he was still breathing.<snip>   Shameful, but ALL too common!!! ...which isn't to say that the clergy wouldn't entertain all comers!   >I have a theory that many church musicians are hopelessly warped from = >the outset because to be any good you have to start putting in long hours >at the keyboard from middle school on up, and during your high school >years, instead of learning to work with your peers you spend all your free >time alone in a dark church.<snip>   I agree. It's also the perfect haven for those with social interactivity disorders to hide. ("Knife? What knife? I don't have any knife...") = Any psychologist will tell you that such a person who hides in such an environment will only get worse over time, not better. I started out that way in junior high, spending long, dreary afternoons in a cold sanctuary until dusk. After while, all that "creepiness" gets to you! By high school, my practice time was suffering greatly in order to attain enough social interaction to prevent psychosis!   It got to the point where hammering away at a console in a Hammond studio or the like was better than working out fingering and sight-reading while tucked away in the prison of a sanctuary. Even a console at home allowed something more of a "normal" lifestyle. It also makes the practice time that IS spent in the sanctuary a real treat, as you don't become jaded to the organ's tonal charms (or deficiencies) by ingesting too much on a = daily basis. I believe you can "hear" the organ better, and make proper tonal decisions, when you're not overexposed to it.   It's shame that the organ as an instrument of music is now again banished almost exclusively to the sanctuary. Early in this century, municipal organs and others in more secular surroundings were comparitively plentiful, and available to the serious student. Such is certainly a bygone era. There are pockets of hope, however.   As far as clergy...don't EVEN get me started down THAT road!   >We do seem to have gotten past the days when many organists drank way = >too much.<snip>   Ohhh, they're out there! <hick!>   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: attitudes toward congregations From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 02:46:35   At 10:09 PM 1/24/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Sorry, John, I'm with the maitre on this one ... 99.44% of (U.S.) Roman >Catholic congregations are INCREDIBLY ignorant of ALL things: theology, >Scripture, liturgy, music, etc.<snip>   I'm with Bud 100% on this one. Catholics are taught from birth never to question anything, or think, or explore. You see, if they did THAT, then the Holy Mafia in Rome fears losing all control...and we can't have THAT, can we? This is a good reason why the Church works so well in places = where thinking is extraordinary...like Mexico. There was a renaissance of thinking within the Church in the 1960s after Vatican II on things theological and dogmatic, but that was quashed in short order! How DARE those Jesuits challenge Rome!   >Scott Foppiano's is one; the Cathedral in Chicago is another; the = National >Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in D.C. is another (if their >Christmas Mass was any indication); and there ARE parish churches >scattered about, usually presided over by VALIANT musicians who >produce good music against ALL odds, with a MINISCULE budget.<snip>   Budget? WHAT budget? This stuff's supposed to be provided to the Church for FREE, donchaknow!   >At the Cathedral in San Bernardino, CA, out of something like NINE = >Masses on a weekend, only TWO are with organ, and ONE with choir ... >ALL the = rest are with bands of varying combinations of instruments.<snip>   I see nothing's changed over there. Prior to its creation, this diocese was part of the far-flung Diocese of San Diego, where, during his reign in the '50s, one Bishop Buddy (his real name! Sorry, Bud.) built a huge complex of the University of San Diego, and the diocesan cathedral. All was done in very expensive Romanesque archetecture, even at the time, all to Bishop Buddy's honor and glory. WHAT did they have for an organ in the great cathedral? A CONN ARTIST 720! I kid you not...it was downright = SAD. Thus, Bud shouldn't feel slighted by having to contend with "Le Grande Hammond" at St. Matt's-by-the-Burger-King, although, being Anglican Episocopal, this is an exception, rather than rule.   >Oh, and the "keyboard player" makes $50 a Mass, for preparing NINE = >Masses in TWO languages. Yeah, right ...   The Church thrives by keeping its faithful ignorant. If you ask for pay, you are OUT.   >What you will find in the average RC parish church is a praise band<snip>   ....successor to the long-suffered "gee-tar Mass"   >The American RC church prior to Vatican II was pretty dreary, but at >least you had at least the POSSIBILITY, if you could raise the forces, of >doing good music<snip>   Never happened to me. Parishoners knew three all-purpse hymns, max, organ was a Hammond C or RT (maybe an Allen, if you had a wealthy congregant = that would donate one), and a directorless choir that would grunt Gregorian = from time to time...that was it. My pastor found out I was playing organ in Methodist and Presbyterian churches and lectured me on excommunication. I told him to shove it. I haven't thought much of clergy ever since.   DeserTBoB "recovering" Catholic, 25 years "pope-free"!  
(back) Subject: Re: National Shrine - NOT Open From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:13:22 EST   In a message dated 1/24/00 11:30:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, DRAWKNOB@aol.com writes:   <<At times I have been accused of being "snooty", if not worse, but -- aren't the parishioners really our employers?   Yes by the fact that they contribute to our salaries. But does that give them the right to complain about every little thing and think they can = call the shots? I think not.     Making a living in church music is like walking a very fine line and it's = a task which one must master rather quickly in orders to make a go of it. = It is essential to be able to juggle the desires of parishioners, the clergy, and our own musical agendi. For without that ability we will surely be doomed. Very true indeed and VERY well said. This is especially true in the = largest parishes where there is even more intense programming and sheer numbers of =   people.     Regarding Scott's situation... I have no idea, but I would guess that it = was probably a rumor started by someone hoping to slip into his job.... Which = is truly sad! >>   No actually, the "two" I mentioned in my email statement both applied here =   and neither got considered past the resume stage. I think it s case of = "sour grapes" and causing trouble. Believe me when I say that the church administration is very aware of what is being said and by whom, and will = not stand for this kind of thing. Thank God for supportive clergy!   Scott Foppiano  
(back) Subject: Re: attitudes toward congregations From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:14:11 EST   In a message dated 1/25/00 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, Quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << What you will find in the average RC parish church is a praise band = (or, failing that, an electronic keyboard) and the "Gather" hymnal (if indeed they've risen to THAT from the disposable Oregon Catholic Press drivel). The "choir" Mass = (if there is one) will have been shoved away in a corner somewhere, and God FORBID that the parish should spend any money on it OR the organ OR the = organist. >> I'm certainly no apologist for the RCs, but I think this paints with far = too big a brush. In the Washington area there are any number of RC parishes = with music programs that are equal to or superior to those of many of the Protestants. My sub work is about evenly divided between RCs and = Protestants and the musical quality is comparable. It's no more fair to paint the majority of RCs as being musically inferior than it is to say that Episcopalians or Presbyterians or Methodists all have great music. I've = been playing for church off and on for about 40 years and I have encountered = the good, the bad, and the ugly -- as well as the noble and beautiful -- = across the denominational spectrum.   Enjoying a much-needed snow holiday in DC, Dudel  
(back) Subject: Recital Announcement From: <SchultzRH@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:30:56 EST   The new Martin Ott III/59 organ at Trinity Ev. Lutheran Church, Lansdale, = PA (Phila suburb) dedication recital by David Higgs will be held Sunday, = March 5, 2000. Free tickets (required) may be obtained for the 7:30PM recital. = See the church web site:   www.trinitylansdale.com   for details about obtaining tickets, the organ (with pix), the specs, etc. =     Although the site lists two recitals, the 3PM tickets are "sold out", as = the congregation flocked to get them on the two Sundays they were available. = The church seats over 700, but in order to guarantee good visibility as well = as sound, seating has been restricted to just under 700. At present there = about 300 tickets left for the 7:30P recital.   David Higgs promises an exciting program using this fine new instument. = The room is warm and reverberant.     Ralph Schultz Trinity Ev. Lutheran Church Lansdale, PA  
(back) Subject: RC standards From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:59:44 -0800   Ah, but you're talking about a major metropolitan area with possibly the = MOST sophisticated congregations in the nation. In DC, even the Roman CATHEDRAL = has a good organ and good music. I think every program I named was also in a = major metropolitan area.   I'm no apologist for the ANGLICANS, but when I was working for Rodgers, we = did a survey of churches in the San Diego area ... all but two or three = Episcopal churches had pipe organs; three (possibly four) RC churches (out of = HUNDREDS) had pipe organs, and one of those was a recycled Wurlitzer theatre organ. And = San Diego is ALSO a major metropolitan area.   The organist of the RC cathedral at the time, a Dr. Shanks from La Jolla, = donated his ENTIRE salary to pay the cathedral choir ... their performances and repertoire were somewhat quixotic (chaotic?), but at least they sang a recognizable Missa Cantata, albeit in a church that had floor to ceiling acoustical tile (covering hard plaster) and wall-to-wall indoor-outdoor = carpeting (covering marble) ... both were installed by the cathedral rector to = "improve" the acoustics. If the organ hadn't been a '20s blunderbuss Austin = (virtually a twin of mine at Old St. Mary's in Cincinnati), you wouldn't have been able = to hear it beyond the choir loft.   I WILL make THIS generalization: in both the RC and the Anglican churches, = the choral tradition fades the further west you get, with a few notable = exceptions: Salamonovitch at St. Paul the Apostle in LA (but he's due to retire ... = what will happen THEN? He's been there for over 50 years!), Don Pearson at the = Episcopal cathedral in Denver, John Fenstermaker at Grace in San Francisco, = whoever's at the Flentrop in Seattle, etc.   But the tale is REALLY told by what goes on in the small-to-medium-sized = Anglican parishes, and the "typical" RC parish churches ... and THAT, friends and neighbors, is like night and day.   Whatever my problems (mostly NON-musical) at St. Matthew's (a parish of = 125-130 communicants), I have a full-time SALARY; I have a MUSIC BUDGET; if I need = extra singers, I have the money to HIRE them; if Le Grand Hammond needs fixed = (granted, an exercise in futility, but ...), I call the repair person; if the piano = needs tuning four times a year (which it does because of the constant = fluctuations in temperature in the chapel), I call the piano tuner; when I needed a better computer system, I GOT it. For THAT matter, when I needed an APARTMENT, = they RENTED me one (!).   St. Matthew's is perhaps SOMEWHAT unusual, even among Anglican churches, = but not ALL that unusual. Music is VITAL to their liturgy, and they acknowledge = that.   AND there's a basic difference between the west coast RC churches, where = the daily and Sunday Missa Cantata never REALLY got established (Salamonovitch = told me most only sang High Mass for funerals in the old days, though in HIS = parish there was a Solemn High every Sunday) and the churches of the Midwest (the nationality parishes in general and the German parishes in particular), = where ALL the daily Masses were Sung Masses, and the simpler Mozart Masses were = staple fare at the Sunday High Mass in the germanic churches.   The first Sunday I went to Mass at Old St. Mary's (circa 1969) the choir = from Blessed Sacrament in Fort Mitchell, KY (on the outer edge of metropolitan Cincinnati) was visiting ... the music of the Mass was Mozart's Coronation = Mass .... not a special occasion ... they just took a Sunday off and came over = and sang it.   St. Mary's was unusual in that they had the ENTIRE Mass in Latin ... most churches had done what I found in Germany immediately after the Vatican = Council .... they prayed and read Scripture in the vernacular, but sang the = Ordinary and Proper in Latin ... not a bad compromise.   Cheers,   Bud   DudelK@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 1/25/00 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: > > << What you will find in the average RC parish church is a praise band = (or, > failing > that, an electronic keyboard) and the "Gather" hymnal (if indeed they've > risen to > THAT from the disposable Oregon Catholic Press drivel). The "choir" = Mass (if > there is one) will have been shoved away in a corner somewhere, and God > FORBID > that the parish should spend any money on it OR the organ OR the = organist. > >> > I'm certainly no apologist for the RCs, but I think this paints with far = too > big a brush. In the Washington area there are any number of RC parishes = with > music programs that are equal to or superior to those of many of the > Protestants. My sub work is about evenly divided between RCs and = Protestants > and the musical quality is comparable. It's no more fair to paint the > majority of RCs as being musically inferior than it is to say that > Episcopalians or Presbyterians or Methodists all have great music. I've = been > playing for church off and on for about 40 years and I have encountered = the > good, the bad, and the ugly -- as well as the noble and beautiful -- = across > the denominational spectrum. > > Enjoying a much-needed snow holiday in DC, > Dudel > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Fire Destroys St. Annes RC Church, Oswego, Il; (cross posted) From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:31:23 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01BF6730.1765C560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Yesterday a fire totally destroyed the St. Annes Roman Catholic Church =3D in Oswego, Illinois. Some of the church vessels were saved from the altar, = =3D but everything else except the pews appears to be a total loss. There is a =3D serious question as to whether structure can be saved. Church had a 2/28 Ott =3D tracker organ according to the Diapason of March, '87. A Chicago Tribune article describing fire damage, but no mention of organ can be found at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/dupage/article/0,2669,SAV-000125= =3D 0249,FF.html   jch   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01BF6730.1765C560 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3Dtext/html;charset=3D3Diso-8859-1 =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3616.1301"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Yesterday a fire totally destroyed = =3D the St. Annes=3D20 Roman Catholic Church in</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Oswego, Illinois. Some of the = church =3D vessels=3D20 were saved from the altar, but</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>everything else except the pews = =3D appears to be a=3D20 total loss. There is a serious</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>question as to whether structure = can =3D be saved.=3D20 Church had a 2/28 Ott tracker</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>organ according to the Diapason of = =3D March, '87. A=3D20 Chicago Tribune article</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>describing fire damage, but no =3D mention of organ=3D20 can be found at:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/dupage/article/0,2669,SA= =3D V-0001250249,FF.html">http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/dupage/art= =3D icle/0,2669,SAV-0001250249,FF.html</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>jch</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_004F_01BF6730.1765C560--    
(back) Subject: FL Pipe organ company / inventory for sale From: "Mr. Jan S. VanDerStad" <dcob@nac.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:09:44 -0500   Dear List Members   After nearly 50 years of building and servicing pipe organs, Mr. D. F. Bouma, the propietor of Dutch Craft Organ Builders in Lake Wales, FL has decided to retire. As a result of his retirement, a complete pipe organ, as well as a decent inventory of ranks and parts are available for purchase.   For more information, go to http://dutchcraft.homestead.com/home.html Or, you can contact Mr. Bouma directly at: (941) 696-3410.   I am posting this to all the organ lists in hopes that some interest be generated. It is to my knowledge that all inventory must be cleared out as soon as possible.   Mr. Jan S. Vanderstad Northeastern USA Representative Dutch Craft Organ Builders  
(back) Subject: Looking for music [X - Post] From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:23:44 -0600   Clarence Eddy Compiled and edited four volumes in the series, "The Church and Concert Organist". I have located copies of volumes I, II, and IV, but have been generally unsuccessful in locating a copy of volume III. OCLC has no listing for this volume.   Is anyone aware of the location of one of these from which I could obtain a photocopy. (I am persuaded, based upon the copyright date of volume IV that volume III is in the public domain.)   Thanks   Noel Stoutenburg Dallas, TX    
(back) Subject: Tournemire's L'Orgue Mystique From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:17:58 -0800   I brought this up awhile back, and then got sick and/or got busy and forgot about it.   I have maybe five volumes of L'Orgue Mystique, in the original French edition (not the World Library reprint ... sigh ... I could have bought THOSE for $1 a volume when WLSM went under ... if anybody knows where to find THEM, give a holler) ... anyway, I'm interested in obtaining copies of the OFFERTORY, ELEVATION and COMMUNION from at least the volumes covering the FESTAL half of the church year (Advent III - Trinity Sunday and the few big holy days he set) ... I don't have time in our service to play the preludes on the Introits (they're too short to use for anything else, unless we start using incense), and I have neither the "chops" nor the organ to play the big pieces at the end of each set, but the Offertories, Elevations and Communions are WONDERFUL, for the most part. I'd love to have 'em for the whole YEAR, but I'm less likely to practice them in Trinitytide (grin).   Anybody have 'em and feel generous? I'd be happy to PAY $$$ (within reason) for good legible (photo)copies of any of the above; also be happy to share the few volumes I have, if I can ever remember to look at church and see which ones I DO have (grin) ... these Senior Moments are starting to run together ...   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: The Church after Vatican II From: "Charles Wertalik" <wertzl@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:39:02 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0053_01BF6784.FAAF4E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   I thought this website was supposed to be concerned mostly with PIPE =3D ORGANS and MUSIC related thereto, folks. Instead, it seems to be =3D degenerating into a general bashing of the Catholic Church as it exists = =3D after the Second Vatican Council.=3D20   Come on, people, Vatican II represented PROGRESS and a real attempt to =3D bring the Church into the modern world. As a small part of that effort, = =3D musical forms were also modernized (or shall we say 'modified') to some = =3D extent with the addition of, for the most part, the guitar as =3D accompanying instrument. Of course, the pastor of each parish had quite = =3D a voice in deciding whether or not a "folk Mass" would even be allowed.   But believe me, I do like organ music VERY much, and we certainly need =3D Masses with such music. There just needs to be some variety; there's =3D nothing wrong with that. Could we please dispense with this =3D quasi-religious yakkety yak and share some good technical stuff about =3D the King of Instruments?=3D20   Thanx!   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0053_01BF6784.FAAF4E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>I thought this website was supposed = to =3D be concerned=3D20 mostly with PIPE ORGANS and MUSIC related thereto, folks. Instead, it =3D seems to=3D20 be degenerating into a general bashing of the Catholic Church as it =3D exists after=3D20 the Second Vatican Council. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Come on, people, Vatican II = represented =3D PROGRESS=3D20 and a real attempt to bring the Church into the modern world.&nbsp;As a = =3D small=3D20 part of that effort, musical forms were also modernized (or shall we say = =3D   'modified') to some extent with the addition of, for the most part, the = =3D guitar=3D20 as accompanying instrument. Of course, the pastor of each parish had =3D quite a=3D20 voice in deciding whether or not a "folk Mass" would even be=3D20 allowed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>But believe me, I do like organ music = =3D VERY much,=3D20 and we certainly need Masses with such music. There just needs to be =3D some=3D20 variety; there's nothing wrong with that. Could we please dispense with = =3D this=3D20 quasi-religious yakkety yak and share some good technical stuff about =3D the King=3D20 of Instruments? </FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Thanx!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0053_01BF6784.FAAF4E00--    
(back) Subject: Re: The Church after Vatican II From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:08:34 -0800   Charles: we have had this discussion before ... perhaps you missed it.   It is IMPOSSIBLE in a liturgical church, whether RC, Anglican or Lutheran, to separate theology and liturgy from the practice of sacred music ..."lex orandi, lex credendi". Vatican II represented a "sea change" in both in the RC church. I hasten to add that two contradictory events took place immediately AFTER Vatican II: the liberals took it, misinterpreted it, and ran with it; and the conservatives tried to put the genie back in the bottle, often focusing on minutiae, rather than essentials. BOTH got it wrong.   The fact that the documents of Vatican II have been generally ignored when they didn't suit American bishops and pastors accounts in large measure for the fact that we find electronic organs cluttering Roman Catholic churches today. "The pipe organ is to be given pride of place; electronic organs and electronic bells are FORBIDDEN, and dispensation must be sought from the ORDINARY (the diocesan bishop) for their TEMPORARY introduction until a suitable replacement can be procured." The translation of the original Latin document may not be entirely accurate ... I'm working from memory. But there it is.   I don't call the wholesale abandonment of Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, Mozart, Haydn, Bruckner, etc. "progress" by any stretch of the imagination. Nor do I find anywhere in the LATIN ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS OF VATICAN II any justification whatsoever for the abandonment of the Missa Cantata and the choirs who sang them, OR the Latin language.   As to bringing the Church "into" the modern world, doesn't Scripture tell us that we are to be IN the world but not OF it? After fighting Modernism to a standstill in this century, the Church flung wide the doors and said "y'all come on IN!"   As to "quasi-religious yakety-yak", I'll be HAPPY to share my dissertations upon the construction and registration of French baroque organs, French romantic organs, and the interpretation of notes inegal with you, and a host of other topics ... they should be in the PipeChat archives under my name.   But I am first, last and ALWAYS a CHURCH musician, practicing the ART of sacred music as I received the patrimony from my teachers (and I had some notable ones).   Perhaps this forum isn't as free-wheeling as OrganChat, but the subject came up via the nastiness with Scott and the National Shrine of the Little Flower, and I spoke my mind, as I ALWAYS do (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   (The Rev. Fr. M. Cyril, CR + Oblate Superior and Chant-Master, The Community of the Resurrection, retired)   Choirmaster and Organist St. Matthew's Anglican Catholic Church Newport Beach CA USA   Charles Wertalik wrote:   > I thought this website was supposed to be concerned mostly with PIPE > ORGANS and MUSIC related thereto, folks. Instead, it seems to be > degenerating into a general bashing of the Catholic Church as it > exists after the Second Vatican Council. > Come on, people, Vatican II represented PROGRESS and a real attempt > to bring the Church into the modern world. As a small part of that > effort, musical forms were also modernized (or shall we say > 'modified') to some extent with the addition of, for the most part, > the guitar as accompanying instrument. Of course, the pastor of each > parish had quite a voice in deciding whether or not a "folk Mass" > would even be allowed. But believe me, I do like organ music VERY > much, and we certainly need Masses with such music. There just needs > to be some variety; there's nothing wrong with that. Could we please > dispense with this quasi-religious yakkety yak and share some good > technical stuff about the King of Instruments? Thanx!