PipeChat Digest #1499 - Sunday, July 9, 2000
 
Organs and humidity
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: Soundfont tuning
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Baaahstun Symphony Hall =C6-S /
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Baaahstun Symphony Hall =C6-S /
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Organs and humidity
  by "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com>
Re: Organs and humidity
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
anthems, part two (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 


(back) Subject: Organs and humidity From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:24:51 -0500   OK DRs! I think you did a good job of restating my original point in = more technical language. Perhaps in all of this my original point was lost: = that some ac systems de-humidify, and some re-humidify! In my experience, it is those with constantly running = air handlers that re-humidify. Don't you feel the rush of increased humidity = every time the compressor goes off? It does seem that those unity with excessive capacity in the = condensing units are also bad! If the fans cycle off, at least there is some time for = the moisture to drain out of the coil before the next cycle. I also know the = bit about introducing heat, but that is not easily done with some units. Wouldn't = it be easier to simply cycle the fans? I guess someone a long time ago decided = that commercial ac systems should have constant running fans. Perhaps this was because of = noise concerns; that people would be disturbed by the starting sound of the units. Shouldn't they be perfectly silent = anyway, and then that would not be a problem. With todays "soft start" possibilities, = there should be no increase in noise on starting either. What we need is more = hvac engineers who understand the problems and needs of music rooms and = churches! As to be problems excessive humidity causes; I could tell the story about = the tubular pneumatic Moller I was called on to diagnose. Upon pushing on a few valve stems, I noticed that they all were = stuck. I simply pushed them all free, climbed out of the organ and said "now try = it". The organist was most amazed and I inquired how much the organ was played. = She told me that they wanted to save it, and that it was never turned on = except for one hour on Sunday. This brings up the point that organs need to be = played to keep them in condition. key pins and other action parts oxidize and sometimes even rust if the plating is worn away. If they are seldom played, the increased = friction can cause sticking. If the organ is very old, or sometimes even with new = organs the keys may be only "wood bushed" that is there may not be any bushing = cloth around the guide pins and center pins to offer a resilient bearing. In my experience, there are particularly likely to stick for the above reasons. Roy   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 11:12 AM 7/5/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Because, when the compressor goes off, the fans simply pump whatever = moisture > >remains in the coils back into the room. I have seen actual rain = falling in > >rooms from some systems. > >If you can explain it better, have at it!!!<snip> > > All coils, whether direct expansion or chilled water, are designed so = that > condensate drains into a pan plumbed to a drain. In the extreme climes = of > the South, this amount of water can be considerable, but nonetheless, > drains quickly in a properly engineered and installed system. There is = a > period after refrigeration shutdown where some of the condensate = evaporates > again into the airstream should the inside air fan continue to run. > However, the amount of moisture introduced is confined to that amount of > liquid left on the coils at time of shutdown. Some of it is again > evaporated into the airstream quickly, and the rest drains off. This, = of > course, assumes at least an attempt at proper maintenance. > > Most systems use a minimal filtration system for the intake to the air > handler; 10% ASHRE-rated filters (the common, 1" "funace filter" found = at > hardware stores) are much too common. Many commericial system are = designed > to use 2" pleated-medium 30% filters. Use of low-grade filters, or lack = of > them entirely, can cause the coil to grow a "fur" of dirt which, after a > period of time, is too great to be washed into the condensate drain by = the > precipitating condensate. In such cases, dehumidification (as well as > sensible cooling capacity) will be materially decreased. Still, the = amount > of moisture re-evaporated into the airsteam will be confined to that = amount > that was present on the coil (and soaked into the dirt) when either the > compressor was shut down or the chilled water supply was interrupted. You > cannot get "something for nothing"; in this case, an air handler cannot = add > more moisture to the conditioned space that wasn't there originally. > > As for conditioned spaced "raining", this can occur in areas of extreme > humidity, again such as the South, where outside air is allowed to enter > the conditioned space in large quantities from outside the system, such = as > open door or windows. The unconditioned air is cooled by mixing with = the > interior air, and its moisture content will readily condense on any item > that is at or below the mixed air's dew point. This is quite common on > registers and diffusers, which are cooled by the conditioned air = delivered > through them. In large conditioned buildings, where the system has = excess > capacity, a problem can occur where the conditioned space is sensibly > cooled without proper removal of the latent heat of water content. In = such > cases, if the space's sensible air temperature reached the its dew = point, > spontaneous condensation can occur, causing "inside rain". This was a > problem in the Houston AstroDome from the start, causing Carrier > Corporation engineers to try various methods of reducing latent heat = more > efficiently within the air handlers. > > Suffice it say that the total heat energy of a mass of air in any = enclosed > space contains both sensible heat and the latent heat of evaporation of > water vapor. The only way to raise total heat content is to add = sensible > heat, through sun radiation, cooling of human occupants, and other = sources, > or by evaporating water, which can come from a vareity of sources, also > including occupants. You cannot add latent heat simply by circulating = air. > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Soundfont tuning From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 19:21:10   At 09:55 PM 7/8/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Although, I do find it >comical in a sense that that the equal temperament people so visciously >attack the concept of unequal temperament, as though they are afraid it = will >"catch on and take over."<snip>   Noooo, it's just many don't think that going backwards technologically is the answer...BWAAAHAHAHA!   Try Franck on Werkmeister sometime...yeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Baaahstun Symphony Hall =C6-S / From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:44:26 EDT   Dear Tim:   I couldn't have said it better! You are right on the money!   Ron  
(back) Subject: Re: Baaahstun Symphony Hall =C6-S / From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:46:40 EDT   Dear David:   I most highly agree!   Ron  
(back) Subject: Re: Organs and humidity From: "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:37:19 -0500     -----Original Message----- From: Roy Redman <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Saturday, July 08, 2000 8:11 PM Subject: Organs and humidity >The organist was most amazed and I inquired how much the organ was = played. She >told me that they wanted to save it, and that it was never turned on = except for >one hour on Sunday. This brings up the point that organs need to be = played to >keep them in condition. >Roy You are right. Reminds me of a organ in a mansion in DesMoines, Iowa, we ask the tour guide if the organ ever gets used and she said "Oh, no" that they were trying to save it. (what can I say???) I really wanted to hear it, :-( I was with a good organist at the time who would have played it if allowed. He was allowed to play the piano though. :-) Luther    
(back) Subject: Re: Organs and humidity From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:59:19   At 09:24 AM 7/8/2000 -0500, you wrote: >OK DRs! I think you did a good job of restating my original point in = more >technical language. Perhaps in all of this my original point was lost: that some >ac systems de-humidify, and >some re-humidify! In my experience, it is those with constantly running = air >handlers that re-humidify. Don't you feel the rush of increased humidity every >time the compressor >goes off?<snip>   You've missed my point. The point is that only the amount of moisture on the coil at the time gets evaporated into the conditioned space. Once that's evaporated, no more can be, thus the conditioned space is dryer = than it would be if there were no refrigeration at all. A refrigeration = system cannot "humidify" the conditioned space beyond what is on the coil when it warms up, a very small fraction of the total moisture content. Sure, you'll feel a bit of moist air as the coil warms up. Once that's evaporated, the latent heat of the air doesn't increase due to "humidification".   >I guess someone a long time ago decided that >commercial ac >systems should have constant running fans. Perhaps this was because of = noise >concerns; that people would be disturbed by >the starting sound of the units.<snip>   Part of total design is ventilation. A room full of people must have a certain percentage of its air flow be fresh air, whether it is heated, chilled, or neutral. This is usually 10% for places like office = buildings, more for auditoriums and churches. This is usually goverened by local statute, except in more backward parts of the country. A good rule of thumb for tightly packed churches (of which there are few these days) is = 20%.   >Shouldn't they be perfectly silent anyway, and >then that would not be a problem. With todays "soft start" = possibilities, there >should be no increase in noise on starting either.<snip>   You can have a very quiet system in any installation...as long as you've got the money. Sound traps, turning vanes and custom made duct runs make this quite possible, but very few churches are willing to spend money on it. Many large, rich churches built in the late '50s and '60s have very quiet systems that still work well to this day. When church monies = started getting tight, we started seeing the implementation of package units and the like, which increase noise.   >What we need is more hvac >engineers who understand the problems and needs of music rooms and churches!<snip>   No, those are in large supply, as can be seen in the recording industry. What's needed is church and auditorium committees that know what they = want, and let engineers engineer, instead of spec'ing out stupid and/or cheap systems that don't provide what they need, which is often the case. Also, it is an engineering standard that commercial systems that condition air for human occupany have constant running air handlers. Some experimentation was done in the late '70s with cycling fans; the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, and very little savings are = realized in terms of energy savings. Equipment wear and tear increases, too. Multi-horsepower fan units undergo most of their stress when starting, not while running. You might notice that large, modern concert halls have = very quiet systems, even though their capacity might approach 100 tons.   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: anthems, part two (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:22:29 -0700   MY ANNUAL PLEA (grin):   OK, here's the second part of the pitch: if you have single copies of anthems of similar ilk that WEREN'T on my list, I will pay the same: $.25 per anthem plus postage for YOU to send them to ME.   PLEASE, don't let this whole body of traditional Anglican parish choral literature disappear forever. Dig in the bottom drawers of your filing cabinets and in your church basements. Give me your tired, your tattered, your terminally tacky (grin). They'll find a good home at St. Matthew's. I'll take just about anything written before WWII.   PARTICULARLY NEEDED:   "Anthem" settings of the Canticles at Morning and Evening Prayer (1928/1662 Prayer Book text ONLY):   Venite Te Deum Benedictus es, Domine Benedicite Benedictus Jubilate   Magnificat Nunc dimittis   AND   COMMUNION SERVICES (Masses) in English using the 1928/1662 Prayer Book text ... Faith Press, etc.   AND   any traditional anthems, particularly those with Scriptural (King James) texts.   And here's a dirty little secret: LORENZ used to publish anthems for the Anglican service prior to WWII ... if anybody has any pre-WWII Choir Herald or Choir Leader magazines, those are a treasure trove. PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE send 'em, or copy 'em and send the copies. I've located one almost complete set going back to 1898, but it's in Texas and so far I've been able to get about one set per year out of 'em.   I'll do something nice for y'all someday (grin).   Cheers,   Bud