PipeChat Digest #1436 - Monday, June 5, 2000
 
Re: partners, partners
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Reed/flue tuning
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: Reed/flue tuning
  by "ldpatte@attglobal.net" <ldpatte@attglobal.net>
Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Reed/flue tuning
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Reed/flue tuning
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Detroit Organ Benefit (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
1940's Moller Organ For Sale (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post)
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Fluegelhorn and tuning.
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
SHRINE KILGEN REDEDICATION REMINDER (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Reed/flue tuning / organ service
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post)
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Reed/flue tuning / organ service
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Reed/flue tuning
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Fluegelhorn and tuning.
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: partners, partners From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 06:08:32 -0400   Hey, all you complaining about not being able to be legally married--Come to Vermont (where the Civil Unions Bills passed, hooray!)! It may not = quite be "marriage", but it's the next best thing. BTW, I'll be happy to play = for you...   Paul   http://www.sover.net/~popel      
(back) Subject: Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:41:39 +0800   I think your society will have a fairly small membership Dave. 99% of the organs in this country are tuned to equal temperament and long may it = remain so. Bob Elms.   "Dave G." wrote:   > >Worshiping at the alter of Equal temperament comes with a very high = >cost. > > Bruce, > > Indeed it does. > > You can sign me up for a membership in your society. > > I was playing with Pierre Lewis' excellent Java tuner tool which lets = you > hear and experiment with various tunings. I recommend everyone check it > out... I learned a LOT about temperaments here. It's a very rich > interactive web site. > > www.quebectel.com/gt/usagers/roule/accord.htm > > So here is the ideal unequal temperament I'll tune my small organs to: > > 0 0 -2 -3 -4 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 0 > G D > > Wow! > > There is really a dramatic and wonderful difference between a = temperament > like this with different keys having noticeably different qualities, as > compared and dull and bland standard equal temperament. Even a musical > neophyte like me can tell! > > DG > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning From: <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:43:15 EDT   In a message dated 6/3/00 10:29:57 PM Central Daylight Time, = KriderSM@aol.com writes:   << I know of three organs (2 theatre and one church) where the temperature is kept at the same temperature year round >>   There are 4 churches in Dallas, that I know of, which maintain a constant temperature in the church/organ chambers (mine isn't one of them... but = I'm still fighting for it) and I know of at least 2 churches in Houston which also maintain a constant temp -- and the organs sound Vunderful! ;-)   John  
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning From: "ldpatte@attglobal.net" <ldpatte@attglobal.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:00:08 -0400       DRAWKNOB@aol.com wrote:   > There are 4 churches in Dallas, that I know of, which maintain a = constant > temperature in the church/organ chambers (mine isn't one of them... but = I'm > still fighting for it) and I know of at least 2 churches in Houston = which > also maintain a constant temp -- and the organs sound Vunderful! ;-)   John,   You may be flogging a dead horse in your fight. It's probably a lot = cheaper to get a tuner in two or three times a year than it is to heat/cool a = building to maintain a constant temperature year 'round (unless, of course, the = building is being used more than about 16 hours a day, every day). Most places have = gone this way; and if they haven't, they probably will soon.   Dave C. London, Ont.      
(back) Subject: Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:53:45 PDT     >I think your society will have a fairly small membership Dave.   It wasn't my society, that society was proposed here a couple weeks ago by someone named Bruce Behnke. I don't know if he's still on pipechat... his email address bounced.   DG   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:58:09   At 11:28 PM 6/3/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Only minor attention when some bird or insect decides to lodge itself in = the >pipe's innerards.<snip>   I'm a firm believer of highly efficient air filtration on the blower's intake, and it elminates many problems, both long and short term. All the clean wind in the world won't stop them from getting in through the pipework, however! I'll NEVER figure out how a pigeon figured out how to slop mud inside a 32' contrabourdon in one church to build a nest. Whatta mess!! It's not even the usual place for them to roost; usually they like to be underside of eaves or on ledges and beams, so they can poop on passers-by!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:07:49 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 2:01:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ldpatte@attglobal.net writes:   > It's probably a lot cheaper to get a tuner in two or three times a year than it is to >heat/cool a building to maintain a constant temperature year 'round = (unless, of course, >the building is being used more than about 16 hours a day, every day).   Some tests have shown that it is less expensive to run the AC at a higher temperature (78 to 85) constantly when the building is not in use, and = then lowering the temperature prior to usage. This varies from system to = system; I've seen it work both ways. It is important to make sure that the humidity controls are set properly, as well. Another alternative is to leave fans on constantly to keep the air moving and sensibly dry.     Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:10:34 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 5:54:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave_hat@hotmail.com writes:   > It wasn't my society, that society was proposed here a couple > weeks ago by someone named Bruce Behnke. I don't know if he's > still on pipechat... his email address bounced. He's still around. Perhaps he just hadn't made a deposit!!! ;-) I'm a member, too!! hehehehe   However, I did get a CD of Lorenz Maycher playing Sowerby goodies at = Kigore of Skinner fame. It is scrumptious, although the room is a = dissapointment. The acoustics sound plastic. I don't know if they're enhanced or not, but = it sure is an unkind room. The organ, however, is gorgeous, as traditiona holds!!!   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:44:13 EDT   This afternoon The Church of St. Matthew and St. Joseph in Detroit hosted = 10 local organists in a benefit concert to raise funds and kick off the organ =   restoration project. It was my first time there and I must say that I was =   absolutely overwhelmed at the flexibility and beauty of tone this organ = has. It has all the expected Skinner "goodies" and wonderful effects. For many years it has been under the expert care of Ken Holden, EM Skinner expert, = and his firm. Timothy Huth, Organist-Choirmaster at St. Matthew and St. = Joseph, put the program together as follows:   Carillon (Opus 27, #4, Dupre) Jean Randall, Utica United Methodist and Detroit Masonic Temple   Andantino (Pieces de Fantasie, Vierne) Jeremy David Tarant, Cathedral of St. Paul (Episcopal), Detroit   Roll Jordan, Roll (Ralph Simpson) Wayne Barr, Hartford Memorial Baptist, Detroit   Fountain Reverie (Percy Fletcher) John Lovegren, Jefferson Avenue Presbyterian Church, Detroit   Master Tallis' Testament (Herbert Howells) Charles Kennedy, St. John's Episcopal, Detroit   Intermezzo (Symphony 6, Widor) Gale Kramer, Metropolitan United Methodist, Detroit   Hymn: When In Our Music God Is Glorified (Engelberg) played by G. Kramer   Procession (Byzantine Sketches, Mulet) Ray Ferguson, Wayne State University   Komm, Gott Schopfer, Heiliger Geist (Leipzig Chorales, JS Bach) Christopher Wells, St. John's Episcopal, Plymouth   Liturgical Prelude on "St. Thomas" Scott F. Foppiano, National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak   Dance of the Blessed Spirits (Christoph Willibald Gluck) Ron Styberski, St. John's Episcopal, Royal Oak   Toccata (Symphony 5, Widor) Timothy Huth, St. Matthew's and St. Joseph's, Detroit   THE ORGAN AT ST. MATTHEW'S AND ST. JOSEPH'S Ernest M. Skinner, 1926, Opus 623 2,609 pipes, 34 stops, 39 ranks   GREAT (Man II, 6" pressure) 16' Bourdon (Pedal) 8' Diapason 8' Claribel Flute 8' Gedeckt (Swell) 8' Flute Celeste (Swell) 4' Octave 4' Flute Triangulaire (Swell) III Mixture (15-19-22) 8' Tromba   SWELL (Man III, 6" Pressure, Expressive) 16' Bourdon 8' Diapason 8' Gedeckt 8' Salicional 8' Voix Celeste 8' Flauto Dolce 8' Flute Celeste 4' Octave 4' Flute Triangulaire IV Mixture (15-19-22-26) 16' Waldhorn 8' Cornopean 8' Vox Humana 4' Clarion Tremolo   CHOIR (Man I, 6" Pressure, Expressive) 8' Concert Flute 8' Cello 4' Flute 2-2/3' Nazard 8' Clarinet Tremolo Harp Celesta   SOLO (Man IV, 10" Pressure, Expressive) 8' Gamba 8' Gamba Celeste 4' Flauto Mirabilis 8' French Horn 8' English Horn 8' Tuba (15" Pressure) Tremolo   PEDAL (5" Pressure) 16' Major Bass 16' Bourdon 16' Echo Bourdon (Swell) 8' Octave (extension) 8' Gedeckt (extension) 8' Still Gedeckt (Swell) 16' Trombone (8" Pressure) 16' Waldhorn (Swell) 8' Tromba (extension)   PISTONS: Great 5 Swell 6 Choir 5 Solo 5 Pedal 5 (toe studs only) General Cancel Full Organ (piston and toe stud)   FULL COUPLERS (across backrail, not on combination action)  
(back) Subject: 1940's Moller Organ For Sale (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:56:13 EDT   This is being posted for a friend of mine, Dr. Timothy Huth, Organist-Choirmaster at the church mentioned below:   The Church of St. Matthew and St. Joseph in Detroit has a Moller Organ, = circa 1940's for sale and currently installed in their back gallery. The two manual stop-tab console, bench, pedals and all pipework seem to be there = from a brief inspection and in good condition. The Great pipework is arranged around the Rose Window and the Swell in an expression chamber at the South =   end of the gallery with vertical expression shades. With a little work = this organ would make a church, small studio or home a wonderful instrument. Contact information at the bottom of this email following the spec. The stoplist and details are as follows:   GREAT (Man I, Unenclosed): 8' Open Diapason 8' Melodia 8' Dulciana 8' Unda Maris 4' Octave 2' Fifteenth Great 16' and 4' Swell to Great 16', 8' and 4'   SWELL (Man II, Expressive) 16' Gedeckt 8' Stopped Flute 8' Salicional 8' Voix Celeste 4' Principal 4' Flute Triangulaire 2' Flautina III Plein Jeu 8' Oboe & Bassoon (yes it is labeled that way) Tremolo Swell to Swell 16' and 4'   PEDAL: 16' Bourdon 16' Lieblich Gedeckt (Swell) 8' Flute Great to Pedal 8' Swell to Pedal 8'   Contact: Dr. Timothy L. Huth, Organist-Choirmaster, St. Matthew's and St. Joseph's Episcopal Church 8850 Woodward Avenue Detroit, MI 48202-2137 (313) 871-4750 church, (313) 871-8166 church fax Tim's email address: kcphoto@umich.edu  
(back) Subject: Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post) From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:06:19 -0500   From the stoplist I have, it looks as if the Swell 4' Clarion was originally an 8' Fl=FCgelhorn and the Choir 2.2/3' Nazard was originally = a 2' Piccolo. Does anyone know when these tonal changes were made?   John Speller  
(back) Subject: Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:11:15 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 8:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 jlspeller@stlnet.com writes:   << From the stoplist I have, it looks as if the Swell 4' Clarion was originally an 8' Fl=FCgelhorn and the Choir 2.2/3' Nazard was originally a 2' Piccolo. Does anyone know when these tonal changes were made? =20 John Speller >>   Yes in the 1970's, they are there, the stoplist I posted is the ORIGINAL=20 stoplist, all of which is still there too. Those stops were added drawknobs= =20 on the console. The Vox Humana is in storage at the church and is slated to= =20 go back in as well.   SFF  
(back) Subject: Fluegelhorn and tuning. From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:31:42 PDT     >originally an 8' Fl=FCgelhorn   A fluegelhorn really is a nice sound -- definitely will have a place in my small organs.   On a totally different topic... The equal temperament supporters do have = one thing right: No matter how you distribute them commas you still end up on =   the average with out-of-tune thirds and nearly perfect 5ths. Ain't no way =   around it with only 12 notes. No tuning magic will give "the perfect temperament"   Either you pay for some of the thirds to be closer to perfect by making others horrible (Villotti) or you pay for a whole bunch of nearly perfect thirds at the cost of slightly out of tune 5ths and a bunch of wolves (meantone) or you pay for a bunch of absolutely perfect triads scattered among a few fairly useable keys at the cost of everything else being = useless junk triads (Just intonation)   The point is: All these are useable compromises depending on the musical effect desired. But if you want to play a wide range of repertoire = probably a fairly even well-temperament (like Villotti or better yet the one I = posted yesterday) is the best way to go. By doing a statistical analysis of the relative abundance of various triads in the music you are planning to play =   you can fine-tune the out-of-tuneness of various 5ths to optimize for that =   range of music.   DG   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: SHRINE KILGEN REDEDICATION REMINDER (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:32:03 EDT   The Rev. Monsignor William H. Easton, Pastor of the National Shrine of the =   Little Flower, will bless the pipe organ at the Shrine in a brief service = of rededication following an extensive program of refurbishing and tonal restoration.   World renowned concert and recording organist G. THOMAS HAZLETON will be rededicating the 1933 Geo. Kilgen and Son pipe organ with a special = recital on Friday Evening, June 16, 2000 at 8 PM.   The program will include works by Robert Elmore, Deems Taylor, Charles Courboin, Pietro Yon, Louis Vierne and Charles Marie Widor. In addition, = the entire suite "Music For the Royal Fireworks" by George Fredrick Handel = will be performed in duet transcription by two organists on the two consoles.   There will be a "meet the artist" reception on the church patio at the = base of the tower immediately following the recital.   We are exceptionally pleased that former music staff from the Shrine and their family members as well as Kilgen family members are coming and will = be here in attendance that evening.   There is no admission charge however a free-will offering will be taken.   The National Shrine is located on Woodward Avenue at Twelve Mile Road in Royal Oak, Michigan (twelve miles north of downtown Detroit).   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning / organ service From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:56:46 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 7:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = Cremona502@cs.com writes:   << It's probably a lot cheaper to get a tuner in two or three times a = year than it is to >heat/cool a building to maintain a constant temperature year 'round (unless, of course, >the building is being used more than about 16 hours a day, every day). >> Even if you do maintain a constant temperature the organ will still need regular service visits. Even with the best conditions individual reed = pipes will fly off pitch, stoppers will slip, tuning collars will creep, etc. = But! Lets forget about tuning. Organs need attention besides tuning. Case in point: The 1903 Bates and Culley organ that I have been talking about. No reeds, all cone tuned pipes. After completing repairs to the pedal action = I decided that it was time for the spring service visit. ( this church has = no heat or AC ) We tuned one note in the Diapason. One note. We adjusted = several manual keys, adjusted the floating beams, greased and oiled the blower, silenced several rattling panels and left.   Minor problems like dirty contacts, key adjustments, adjustments to primaries, etc. can pile up to such an extent that the organ may become unplayable. This is the golden opportunity for the electronic salesman to saunter in and tell the church authorities that that archaic old pipe = organ is beyond repair and should be sent to the junk pile.   Also, think about this! The main reason that this 1903 organ has had only minor repairs during it's 97 years is because it is in a summer church - = not used in the winter - Jersey shore. It is like putting the organ in a refrigerator for eight months out of the year. This has preserved all the leather parts as well as spared all the wooden parts from the drying = effects heat and AC.   As far as heating and cooling are concerned there are only two things that =   count: 1) During a service visit the heat / AC must be adjusted to the = temperature at which the organ is played. Service visit. 2) Unless the organ is in a freestanding case the service visit should be = at the same time that the organ is usually played. This helps even if the = organ is in a case.   Don't fall into the trap of zero maintenance. Do you go to the doctor for regular check ups? You should. Do you have regular tune ups done on your = car? You should. A wise man once said that it is the cheapskate that ends up spending the most money.   Alan B (Pipe organ service technician - not just an organ tuner)  
(back) Subject: Re: Detroit Organ Benefit (x post) From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:06:29 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 8:08:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 jlspeller@stlnet.com writes:   > From the stoplist I have, it looks as if the Swell 4' Clarion was > originally an 8' Fl=FCgelhorn and the Choir 2.2/3' Nazard was originally=20= a > 2' Piccolo. Does anyone know when these tonal changes were made? The Flugelhorn sounds reasonable, but Skinner had a habit of putting Nazards= =20 on the Choir before a Piccolo. From whence cometh thine stoplisth?? ;-)   Bruce=20 .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning / organ service From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:18:51 EDT   In a message dated 6/4/00 8:58:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = TRACKELECT@cs.com writes:   > << It's probably a lot cheaper to get a tuner in two or three times a = year > than it is to > >heat/cool a building to maintain a constant temperature year 'round > (unless, > of course, > >the building is being used more than about 16 hours a day, every = day). > >> I don't normally do this, but I did not write the above. I wrote the = note about AC just for information. My preference is to ventillate the = building to prevent extremes in temperature. The best tunings I've heard have = been in mild weather when the building is NATURALLY at around 70 degrees. The =   organ usually stayed rock-in-tune throughout the year. And I do heartily =   agree that regular maintenance is crucial care.   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Reed/flue tuning From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:12:42   At 07:07 PM 6/4/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Some tests have shown that it is less expensive to run the AC at a higher =   >temperature (78 to 85) constantly when the building is not in use<snip>   Nope, not for a building that gets used once a week. The cost of cooling/dehumidifying a commercial space not in use for long periods of time, like a church, even at elevated sensible temperature setting, is false economy, indeed. Bear in mind that in the "suthuhn" region of the country, where the air seems to mostly consist of superheated water vapor, dehumidification is usually 60 to 80% of the total heat load handled by = the refrigeration system, and there's just no way around that.   Some systems installed in churches are oversized in capacity, to = facilitate rapid drop of sensible heat, which accentuates the humidity problem even more. The best systems I've seen for such applications have provisions = for "economizer" ducting, where the system can be brought on line before daylight on Sunday morning in 100% outside air mode, thus lowering the sensible heat. After purging the building, it can then cut over to "normal" mode, which usually uses 10% outside air (depends on locality; many have codes for the amount of outside air used in building used by the public). Such a system, hopefully being of low enough capacity to keep in full cooling cycle to effectivly dehumidify, has adequate time to make the sensible heat target, while disposing of enough water vapor to provide a comfortable enthalpy level.   A church that runs air conditioning "24 by 7" to keep the tuner away is wasting money and energy, and is contributing the greenhouse gas problem. Even classic control schemes, simply using timeclocks, multi-setting thermostats and humidistats, do the job just fine, without need for computer-based system now been hawked by outfits like Johnson Controls, Stewart-Warner and Honeywell...most of which never work properly in the first place, but appeal highly to management types who like gadgets.   Long term humidity control during the week could be achieved easily on systems using multiple compressors or multi-cylinder compressors, simply = by lowering compressor capacity and air handler fan speeds to deliver enough conditioned air for modest dehumidification, but not enough for sensible cooling, and is controlled by conventional humidistats.   I think this needs to go over to HVAC-l.....   DeserTBoB      
(back) Subject: Re: Fluegelhorn and tuning. From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:06:57   At 05:31 PM 6/4/2000 PDT, you wrote: >By doing a statistical analysis of the >relative abundance of various triads in the music you are planning to = play >you can fine-tune the out-of-tuneness of various 5ths to optimize for = that >range of music.<snip>   ....which is easily done with a push of a button on a digital organ...not = so on a pipe or analog electronic. Hehehe!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Death to Equal Temperament Society From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:14:35   At 07:10 PM 6/4/2000 EDT, you wrote: >The organ, however, is gorgeous, as tradition >holds!!!<snip>   AHA! bReWsE admits to liking an organ of my tonal ideals! I shall bookmark this one...teeheeheehawhawhaw!   dB